350ZZJoe

iTrader: (2)

I haven't noticed any problems with the ABS. I've had them on the car for probably 6000miles. Driven in rain and snow. Tracked it a few times.

The dust shields can be cut with a basic angle grinder.

kilogram

iTrader: (1)

I threw the numbers into the spreadsheet I'm using to design my bbk and P-T for the Akebono kit is ~17.2% larger in front and 15.3% larger in the rear for the Akebono brakes vs the stock Brembos. Actual numbers are irrelevant, it's the value relative to what the system was programmed for. I set 5% as my upper limit of acceptable for my setup. Brake bias only changes by a few tenths of a percent. The Akebono system has about 8% more area than the OE track, which will result in a slightly softer pedal, but it's probably not noticeable for 97% of drivers.

It's still within the window of the 06+ non-brembo brakes, which use stupid large calipers. The 06+ standard brakes are about 1% more forward biased than the Brembo (which is a HUGE change from the early standard brakes, which were about 4% more rear-biased than the Track), but the P-T value of the 06+ brakes is about 15% larger than track (which means if the Akebono system is used on an 06+ car AND the ABS was programmed specifically for the 06+ brakes, it might be ok) and the rear is about 10% larger than Track.

In short, I wouldn't trust the Akebono kit on a Brembo car or an early standard brake model for safety reasons. The ABS on the early standard cars sucks anyway, no sense in making it worse. It's worth mentioning though that I don't know for sure how the ABS computer is programmed. That article was written in 2001, and there have likely been advances in ABS control strategy since then, even by the time the 2003 cars came out. My reasoning behind referencing it is that when altering the brake system, safety dictates changing the characteristics of the system as little as possible, whether the ABS ECU relies on those characteristics or not.

Personally, though, I think the OE Brembos are also overrated. They use fairly small rotors and pads for such a heavy car, even for modest power levels. They're certainly not worth the coin people want for them in used form. Look at the systems used on other similar weight cars that were intended for the track and the shortcomings of the OE brembo system become pretty apparent. I mean, really? Straight vane rotors? The Supra TT uses almost identical dimension directional vane rotors, they just need the hub holes opened up to fit. Maybe people just don't realize there's a cheap, almost bolt-on, directional vane rotor option out there? They really strike me as a bling option that Nissan added to sell cars to enthusiasts more so than a package that was purpose developed for the track. Whatever, I guess. It was a cheap sports car and hit that mark just fine.

For a similar price to the most beat up Brembos I could find, I can build a setup with better thermal capacity, more pad choices, and a lower consumable wear rate. Most people are probably better off with Brembos or a BBK, I just like the challenge.


As far as the Akebono setup weight complaint though, I'm surprised no one has tried using Camaro rotors. They're 5lbs lighter per corner than the 370Z rotors for the same diameter, thickness and offset. They're similar dimensions, but would need the center hub hole opened up by 0.6mm (the Audi guys do this in 30 seconds with a flap wheel) and the bolt pattern redrilled. They're cheap too. 5 min of work for 5lbs/corner is a pretty good deal, IMO. I haven't settled on rotors yet, but I may end up using these if I need a 355mm rotor.


All that said, can anyone CONFIRM (via an actual measurement, not a reference please) the diameter of the rear OE brembo rotors? Almost everything I see online says 322mm, but the 04 FSM says 332mm. I need the actual number to determine front rotors on my setup. Thanks!

Osborn Wu

FML, after cutting the dust shield now there is rubbing noise coming from the back.....

350ZZJoe

iTrader: (2)

Either you didn't cut enough or you managed to bend it towards the rotor. Should be an easy fix if that is where the noise is coming from

Osborn Wu

yup, i saw some shield ended up touching the rotors... and i thought i bended them pretty far back already... weird.....

Osborn Wu

well it's about time

mcubed45

Do you track your car and have issues with brake fade?

No?

Then any BBK is a really just an expensive cosmetic upgrade so go with whatever looks pretty to you.

Just because a BBK upgrade feels like it "bites harder" doesn't mean you've gained any performance. In fact your stopping distance has probably INCREASED. The stock braking system and ABS is balanced and setup to minimize stopping distance. By slapping on bigger calipers you've reduced the ABS's ability to modulate and keep your wheels on the brink of locking. Therefore your stopping distance increases and your braking performance has diminished.

dcains

iTrader: (15)

Maybe. You could also say the same about installing stickier/wider tires, too, but the ill effects have never been evident to me, in several cars I've upgraded brakes or tires on. I can think of only a few instances when the ABS has ever kicked in on any of my cars during hard driving, and it was most often when traction was limited on one or maybe 2 wheels due to poor road conditions like rain. I think you're probably over-driving the car if your ABS kicks in on any sort of regular basis.

Osborn Wu

i do plan on auto-crossing the car, and i got a good deal out of it, so it's not expensive for me

and are you talking about what kilogram has already discussed?

mcubed45

If you're measuring actual braking performance (I.e. stopping distance) the abs should be kicking in.

But most people evaluate their brake upgrades strictly by pedal feel. Which is about as useful as the butt dyno.

Steve-O Z33

iTrader: (10)

Do we have any proof that a BBK will actually hinder braking performance with the stock ABS features? I'm pretty sure the evidence is easier to find to contradict those statements.
I'm pretty happy with my Z1/Akebono upgrade. I don't see how my stock non-brembos would be better.

Osborn Wu

so were you talking about the same things as kilogram mentioned? you seems to skipped a lot of discussion that was going on...

if kilogram was right, the akebono set would not affect our abs as long as it's a 06+(?) i hope i interpreted it correctly

mcubed45

For anyone curious about how much a BBK actually improves your stopping distance:

http://www.zeckhausen.com/Testing_Brakes.htm

In a nutshell:

Non- brembo: 118.01 ft

Brembo: 117.28 ft

Stoptech: 115.08 ft


That's a 2.5% decrease in stopping distance going from non-brembo to stoptech and a 1.8% decrease groing from brembo to stoptech.

mcubed45

Kilo was talking more about bbk's affect bias (and therefore negatively affect braking performance).

I'm talking more about how even properly biased BBK's offer VERY little performance increase over stock (in terms of stopping distance).

A lot of people have a misconception about what BBK's actually accomplish.

Osborn Wu

well...judging bbk in terms of stopping distance doesn't seem to be a fair point to go against it, that's not what they are built for afaik... they are built to handle heat a better to have a more consistent performance when being abused.

if we were comparing distance, i think we wants to talk about tires instead?

kilogram

iTrader: (1)

The 115.08 stop was on Proxes tires and modified suspension. The others were on OEM RE040s. In a nutshell, they gained about 1.5ft even using stickier tires, so you're right- not really all that much of a performance gain, IMO. I'm in it for the fade resistance, since I live 10 minutes from the Rockies...

The ST kit is the most rear-biased at ~62.8/38.2 and the Track model is the least rear-biased at 67.5/32.5 with the performance coupe's brakes closer to the ST kit at 63/37. I've never found a good explanation for the large difference in bias between the standard and track models. I presume it's because Nissan expected people to run stickier tires on the Track.

The Zeckhausen article suggests a couple things that I think a lot of people have missed over the years:

1. There's a 1.5ft difference in stopping distance from 60mph across a 4.7% shift in brake bias (looking at the 332mm kit, since it used the same tires as the others). This means that it's likely the ABS is intervening to some degree on the cars with more rear bias, since they're delivering more torque to the rear wheels than the tires can effectively put to the ground. If they could effectively use that extra torque, the car would stop shorter. As such, the only thing it's really doing is putting more heat into the rear brakes.

2. The brake system was designed around the stock tires, stock ride height, etc. Any time you increase the rate of deceleration (via stickier/wider tires), you increase forward weight transfer, requiring more front bias (up to a point).

Has anyone ever measured the cg height on these cars?

sportyaccordy

Do you have any empirical proof of this?

And I get brake fade from driving on the highways in NYC. On a road like Sunrise highway I am doing 60-70 MPH stop and go which is enough to make the pedal go soft over time. I have an 04 Touring with the non-Brembos. Brakes are definitely a weak point and really one of the first things people should address... there just doesn't seem to be a surefired safe way to do so.

I plan on getting SS lines and maybe doing the OEM caliper BBK upgrade. I figure if the rotors increase in size proportionally (which I think the Z1 kit does) the ABS system won't see any problems. From what I understand ABS kicks in only when a wheel locks up.

mcubed45

See the article in my previous post.

Upgrading to reduce brake fade is a great reason to upgrade. Upgrading with the idea that your brakes will bite harder and reduce your stopping distance is not.

350ZZJoe

iTrader: (2)

I upgraded to the Akebono BBK because:
1. The non-Brembo brakes look like chit, especially under a set of nice wheels
2. I don't have much confidence in the non-Brembo's holding up to any amount of track use and not developing brake fade

Before purchasing I had also read this article that talks about rotor temperatures between OEM 2007 brakes and the Akebono BBK on a 350Z
http://www.modified.com/tech/modp-10...e/viewall.html

Osborn Wu

good to know I made a fairly good decision