I'm not sure why most people think that coilovers are that much better than springs......
What most people dont seem to realize about coilovers is other than ride height adjustability(which isnt the real benefit) the real benefit is being able to adjust the amount of force on the ground each tire emmits. and therefore balance the car more and equalize the handling of the car. but the only real way to do this is witha 4 wheel scale, which most people have nor will never use to adjust their coilovers.

the ride height adjustability is great for people in climates where weather dictates how high or low your car can be. but for weekend track people who set them at a certain height and rarely if ever adjust them, they wont handle any better or worse than springs........


Maybe i'm missing something so i figured i'd start a discussion, not meant to be a flame or halt the sales of coilovers.

 

You don't necessarily need a 4 corner balance to improve feel and response and the expense of getting one often precludes that. Afterall, you only have a finite level of adjustment for most coilovers anyways. The 4 corner balance is the most advantageous in terms of suspension tuning by taking into account the driver's weight and inherent weight car balance but you can make certain adjustments with coilovers that will still improve response and feel.

With the Tein EDFC I can make on-track adjustments between my runs with a simple push of the buttons which sometimes I will do depending on track conditions (some courses run faster or offer less grip). Usually I run a full stiff front with a medium rear, a bit more oversteer to counterbalance the inherent understeer. If the course is particularly gravelly or a hard concrete slick surface I may go with a softer front and full soft rear for traction.

Coilovers allow you to experiment. I do agree that most people probably get them for the levels of height adjustment but the added bonus is having a sportier shock. Chances are people would get sportier shocks to improve response (the stock shocks on any car will always be tuned more for comfort) so why not pay a couple of more bills for stiffer springs with height adjustable spring perches in coilovers?

 

the adjustability factor is the real deal. it is there for you to fine tune the car to your liking or what the track is offering. the adjustabilty is the key obviously. Different drivers have different driving styles and with coilovers you can adjust it to your liking. It is well worth the money IMHO.

 

as well, putting a lowering spring on a shock that was designed for a taller spring will force it to operate out of it's standard range. many shocks have orifices that do not stiffen up until it compresses. with lowering springs they are already compressed a bit, and forces it to be much stiffer. i have done a ton of research on springs, and when the advertisements say that they are stiffer than stock it is usually not true. if they feel stiffer, it is because your shock has a smaller operating range. i have been on the technical databases, and talked to the manufacturers, and have been surprised to find out that the rates are typically softer than stock.

with coilovers, you get a shortened shock body, and more importantly a shortened rod which forces it into a more realistic and comfortable operating range. tein has taken this a step further by having a separate threaded lower attachment point which adjusts height, independent of stroke and preload. i thought about this 5 years ago when i was fully bottoming out a set of coilovers on my then car, and i wanted to go lower. i considered moving the lower attachment points up to get a bigger drop...i should have fired up autocad and spoke up to someone. oh well.

additionaly, coilovers usually have linear springs, and it is definitely easier to match the damening rates to one spring rate as opposed to a progressive lowering spring where the rate is always different.

hopefully this helps someone, and i apologize for the long post.

Chad

 

Coilovers are a better purchase because the stock struts with any aftermarket springs "over time". I dont care if the manufacturer says there specced specifically to the OEM struts, they will wear out MUCH quicker and eventually give your car a shietty ride.
Plus being able to fine tune your height and dampening is key for many applications.

 

It is a good thread to start, I agree that it is an important subject to discuss.

Like most mods, there can be a lot of misunderstanding about what they do and do not do, and the greatest problem is in having unmet expectations. So study up on this area is very important for all of us.

Height adjustment is typically a one time thing. By that I mean that the system does not allow you to go up or down in ride height at the flip of a switch, or with a hydraulic feature. You do lower the car if you want to, typically about an inch. You don't get height adjustability without getting back under there and readjusting them...which is usually a major effort.

You do typically get the ability to adjust the stiffness of the damper setting. It may be manual to a couple of different settings. Or you can go with a system that offers an electronically controlled damping force, such as the Tein flex coil, which gives up to 32 different settings for the front, and another 32 for the rear. This is very good for having the ability to get a reasonable trade off between performance driving settings, and street civility, if not actual soft comfort.

In addition the spring coil choices can have different configurations to provide an initial soft damping, follwed by stiffer force, to combine taking the edge off a really stiff set up, but getting to business quickly if it is more than just a little road ridge.

Most people find that a good set of coilover springs can give an enhancement in looks, ride quality and performance over stock set ups, at a reasonable price.

The damper set ups are typically not needed unless you really are getting serious about performance driving. And you may not even have to do those until after you consider changing out to stiffer sway bars, and perhaps some wider wheel and tires too.

But in the end, if you really are going to performance drive, the stock dampers are not going to be enough and you will need to change those.

It is all a relative equation that is quite personal as well. For some folks it just is not worth it. That's cool. I feel the same way about lambo doors. I appreciate what they do, the looks, the novelty, etc. Just not my cup of tea. But flexibly applied suspension set up with much stiffer and higher performance capabilities is just something that I really was motivated to install.

Hope that helps a bit . Let us see what some other folks weigh in with.

 

Great reply, and I totally agree! I ran coilovers on my last car. But it was more for shows so i could drop it to the ground, but then be able to raise it back up to drive home. they did handle well when i was AutoXing it, but rarely did i adjust them for performance reasons.

For me I would currently rather just "tune" my spring and rates and get a set of adjustable shocks.........Konis, KYB's, etc

Now the Teins with the electronic adjustabilty in the dampening i admit is a nice feature, but i think the novelty would wear off after awhile.

My car isnt a daily driver, its mostly for weekends and days at the track. So i try a few different spring/shock combos and find a good fit.

keep up the good replies i think this is and can be a very informative thread for people here.

 

I'd put the stock shocks durability up against the Teins or JIC's any day. I see so many guys with Teins and JIC's that are totally blown in 30,000 miles or less.

 

I would disagree as many coilovers don't even permit this kind of adjustment in the first place - to do this requires a coilover that can be height adjusted independant of spring preload.

There are benefits and detractions for either way, coilover vs springs. I would argue most that buy coilovers are not using them to their extent, but then again, most of us don't use the car to its full extent in the first place.

I think that depends on the person, how well they care for the coilovers, and how they are installed. I know we have done countless Tein and JIC installs over the years and I have never had to send dampeners back to any manufacturer for a rebuild....that is, except for the JRZ we run on the race car.....guess the high price tag does not buy a superior setup afterall!

Adam

 

by lowering and raising each corner of the car you shift the car center of gravity.
if you raise the rear right, it will **** weight to the front left.

I tuned my last car on a 4 wheel scale. and saw the effects of lowering and raising each corner. and that was with a simple coilover system much like the tein's

 

I understand what cornerweighting is......I have been roadracing for nearly 10 years now

Thing is though, you can only really cornerweight a car that has rideheight and preload independantly adjustable of one another.
You say a "simple" coilover like the Tein's...like what Tein's? A Type Basic is an entry level unit whereby rideheight is adjusted only via the spring perch, so you cannot cornerweight that type of setup. However, a system like the Flex, where you can adjust rideheight without affecting preload of the springs is a different story altogether, and it's a setup that can be cornerweighted for track use - that's what I was talking about.

 

Please explain how you can have a rideheight and preload independently adjustable.

My understanding is that they are always linked as follows:
Because the springs are supporting the car, the ride-height and preload are essentially the same, but are also always separate. By this, I mean that the ride height is always determined by what I will call the "average" position of all springs, whereas the corner weight (or preload) is determined by the relative position of one spring in relation to the others. In other words, if you corner weight the car at one height, and you lower all the springs equivalently, then you should still be cornerweighted about the same (allowing for spring tolerance and stuff) but at a new ride height. At the same time, when you change the spring height of one wheel to change the weight on that corner, you will always change the height of that corner simply because you will be changing the reaction force. I don't understand how you can separate the two.

Also, isnt' it true that you can only corner weight the car within a certain range, and at some point the natural CG of the car will determine the limits of your weighting? Since the Z has a 53/47 weight distribution, you will never be able to get it to 50/50 by corner weighting, but you may be able to balance the weight side to side depending on where the CG of the car is.

As for coil-overs, I think they are a very nice all-in-one solution, but that offer only slight benefits over a matched spring/damper combo such as the S-tune. Those benefits are corner weighting and ride-height adjustability (and damper adjustability in some cases - although most aftermarket shocks are at least minimally adjustable).

The TeinFlex doesn't allow the adjustment of rideheight separate from preload does it? I thought it allowed the adjustment of the damping separately, but that can be done with most aftermarked shocks (just not while you are driving).

-D'oh!

 

I have a question. Do you know if there will be "Cup Kits" offered for our car? I think that for a lot of us who aren't using these cars as serious track monsters might enjoy these setups the best.

I had a H&R cup kit on my BMW and thought it was a much better package than just a spring setup. Basically it is a new set of Springs and matched shocks. So in essence it is a "Coil over set" without any adjustability.

The reason I chose them over coil overs was just to save a bit of money. I figured I would set my coilovers to a setting and then probably never touch them again. They would have cost about 1600 bucks. A set of drop springs were about 300 if I recall. The cup kit was around 740 so I figured that it was the way to go.

Anyhow I'd like to see if they are going to be putting together a package like that for the 350 but if not I will go with Coilovers. The matched shocks are pretty essential in my opinion when I compared my BMW to some of the other E46ers

~Josh

 

Simple - on a single height adjustable setup (Tein Basic, Tein SS, Ground Control, and many many others) you have your lower spring perches that are secured to the threaded shock body via lock rings. Once the lock rings are loose, you can spin the perches up and down as needed, which raises or lowers the spring itself (preload). This is not an ideal way to adjust rideheight, as you compromise the stroke of the shock as you reduce rideheight. On coilovers with progressive springs (or those with helpers) you also run the risk of affecting spring rate as well - obviously this does not happen on a linear spring since their rate is constant throughout. You cannot cornerweight these properly, since you run the distinct risk of having substantially various rideheights at each corner.

Ona dual height adjustable setup (Tein Flex, Cusco Zero 1, Cusco Zero 2, and many others), the entire lower body of the coilover spins as well. This allows you to do your main rideheight adjustments here, and can do so independant of spring preload. This type of setup can be, and was meant to be cornerweighted. Plus, you can maintain exactly the same shock travel (aka stroke) no matter where your rideheight is set.

I agree the S tune is perfectly fine for a street driven car. For those doing hardcore track days (there are lots of people here doing that), it pales in comparison to the higher end units in its lack of adjustability.

Yes the Flex is dual height adjustable.

 

Nismo S-tunes, though still the price of a coilover setup....

 

I think that I'm still confused, or maybe it's just a matter of semantics.

When you say you are changing the rideheight independent of preload, it is because you are basiacally increasing the length of the support structure below the spring? Kinda like if you were to add a spacer in between the leaf springs and the axle on a truck suspension?

OK, that makes sense. However, it is still not "independent" in that in order to maintain your corner weighting when changing the rideheight you must stretch the lower body of each coil-over the same amount. Like if you were to stick a larger spacer under one side of your leaf spring suspension the corner weighting would still get all messed up even though you haven't technically changed the spring position. It's preload would still be different than it was with equal length spacers.

To me, it seems like that extra adjustment is more to allow the shock to maintain its full range of travel rather than actually making the two adjustments independent.

Maybe I'm still thinking about this all wrong.

Either way, thanks for the explanation.

-D'oh!

 

because we can afford it. please refer to your ferris bueller take...

 

I just wrote a big long edit but it took longer than 10 minutes so I could not change the post (stupid A$$ rule BTW - annoying at least).

So, here's the condensed version:

My impression after being on the site a couple years is that most people want a "coil-over" because it is called a "coil-over" and is therefore magically better than other, non-coil-over setups. It seems that only a small minority are actually using the features that make a coil-over valuable; the damping adjustments, the ride height adjustments, and the ability to corner weight.

Also, as far as factory tuned suspensions VS coil-overs, I think the biggest difference in general is not performance, but rather the ownership experience. It seems like coil overs are good for the tinkerer type, who will go out a race, change the setup, race, change the setup, race, then complain their sucky times were caused by their lack of practice time, etc. (OK, mostly exaggerating about that last bit, but you know what I mean). The factory tuned setup seem to be better for the end-user types who would rather bolt on the suspension and then go out and drive. I for pro-racers the adjustability has benefits, but even for hardcore trackday enthusiasts, I think you'd have a hard time optimising a coil-over setup with only a couple hours of track time. Therefore, a factory tune suspension should be able to provide a very similar amount of performance (maybe not the S-tune, but Koni's with aftermarket springs, or Penske's, or whatever). Of course, if these setups end up costing more than coil-overs anyway, I guess you might as well get the coil over and have the adjustability if you ever want it.

Whew, hard to belive that's the condensed version. I'll shut up now.

-D'oh!

 

HA, well said and my thoughts exactly!

 

You can't put a 900 lbs spring on a stock shock. I would never buy a set of coilovers unless I tracked the car. You got to pay to play. Properly set up coilovers will make a huge difference on the track.