bailey bill

1) They can simply strike it out

2) They can give you a matching credit in the total calculation.

3) They can lower the price of the vehicle by a matching amount.

The doc fee is simply additional revenue to the dealership. It is NOT "mandatory". Just becasue its pre-printed on teh invoice does NOT mean it is not negotiable.

bill

SargentZ

To me its moronic to charge a 600 dollar document fee

SargentZ

I'm sure thats true, but when using VPP they are less likely to bend on the other stuff since I'm getting a 'below' invoice price. 150 seems reasonable, 600 does not.

phase1

iTrader: (4)

I got the dealership to drop the $600 documentation fee and lower the price to $325 under invoice.

The dealership is going to "work" you as much as possible.......turn it around and "work" them. They are there to get as much $$$ out of you as possible and you are there to save as much $$$ as possible.

If you don't like the way things are going, get up and leave. Go talk to another dealership. Then do the whole: "Well, such and such dealership is willing to offer me the car at this price". More than likely they will go below that price. Once they do, go back to the original dealership and say: "Such and such dealership is going below your offer. If you want my business, can you beat that offer"? Then again more than likely they will go below. Keep doin this back and forth until you find the price and offer your looking for.

If you really want this car, you have to put in the "leg work" and play the game. You just have to play it a little better than the dealership.

ShrinkyDink

Your time must not be very valuable. Spending weeks to try and save $500 on a $25,000 purchase when realistically it's going to amount to an $8 a month difference in payment makes me laugh.

In my 15 years of selling experience (not cars) I have found that it's the nickel and dimers who will be least happy in the end because they don't see any value and no matter what price they get it at they will think they left money on the table. I would rather be out enjoying what I wanted and enjoying my time doing things I really like to do vs trying to be the guy that no one really wants to deal with but they will because they have to.

phase1

iTrader: (4)

So in your opinion, my time must not be valuable??? Well, who the hell are you to judge me? All I was doing was throwing my experience into the forum to try and help out this guy.

No matter what kind of deal I get on the car; whether it's $5 or $2,500 saved, I am still going to enjoy the car and be happy all the same. Every dollar amount I get knocked off is money I can put to the side and save.....I am sure others feel the same as well.

This 2007 350Z is my second NEW vehicle I bought....the first one was a 2006 350Z. So excuse me for lacking in the "15 years of experience department".

HighwaySpeed

http://beatthecarsalesman.com/mailbag10.html


"You're correct when you say that the dealership's "documentation fee" is part of the total price of the vehicle. [Its purpose, of course, is simply to increase the dealership's profit].

[In some states, such as CALIFORNIA, the "doc fee" is regulated and set at a fixed non-negotiable amount]. [However in other states, such as FLORIDA, the "doc fee" is not regulated so the dealership can charge anything they like].

In this case, you should certainly try to negotiate the fee if you feel it is too high. Ask the dealership (or your state's Attorney General's Office) if your state regulates its dealership's "doc fees."

Finally, whether the "doc fee" is regulated or not, you should always double-check the fee in the paperwork to be sure the dealership is not taking advantage of you."

HighwaySpeed

Excellent, Mature and Valid points!

bcrand

The way I did it was negotiate an OTD price. Figure invoice plus tax and tell them thats what you want it for, OTD. They can make it look like whatever they want on paper then. They will either say flat out "no, we cant do that", or they will counter offer. Dont be afraid to walk out the door. If they're bluffing, they'll give in when you start walking.

I1DER

I think ShrinkyDink made a good point about the time spent. A trip to the next dealer 1 hr+ away cost me time and gas. ($150?) But, it was also to actually see different colors and options and buying a new car is a pretty exciting experience. In the end, I'd be 'willing' to pay $250 more to which ever dealer I liked(closer? nicer? service?) over the best price. I keep cars forever and I'll have to deal with that service/parts department for a long time. Since I always order a car, any final negotiations between dealers I do by phone and not spend the $150 time/trip money.

phase1

iTrader: (4)

Well......actually I was able to save on gas and time spent running around because I started the car shopping process when I was in Iraq. I went directly from Iraq to Afghanistan (which is where I am now) and stayed in contact with about 4 dealerships. Once I got situated in Afghanistan, I started the negotiation process with the dealerships......all while sitting in the "comfort" of my office over the phone. So no need to be out running around, driving from dealership to dealership and wasting gas.

The dealership I settled on now has my car sitting at their lot with a sold sign on it, waiting for me to return.

bailey bill

If your satisfied with the deal, then it doesn't matter how you get to the final number. But if they price it $500 below invoice, then add back a $600 doc fee, then you are NOT getting it "below invoice."

Quick personal anecdote:

Bought my '06 Enthusiast by internet and phone (as I always do) Dealer and I agreed on $500 below invoice. When they faxed the invoice/contract, there was (preprinted!) a $200 doc fee, and a $300 "window etch/theft guard" fee. So I called the salesman and he "explained" that the doc fee was required, (yeah, right!) and the window etch was added to every car they sold. And he reminded me what a "good deal" I was getting.

I told him I didn't have a problem paying the $200 doc fee, and I didn't car how he took the other $300 out, but I was NOT going to pay the "window etch" fee.

He scratched it off the invoice, initialed it, and sent me a revised contract. So my net price was $300 below invoice.

Could I have done better? Probably. But I felt the deal was a fair one, so I didn't feel the need for any further negotiations. Like I said, If your satisfied with deal, it doesn't matter how you get there.

But I will NOT tolerate salespeople treating me like an idiot.

bill

350Zenophile

iTrader: (20)

+1 it's as simple as that. You never negotiate price in person nor independently from other factors. You solicit multiple bids from multiple dealer's internet sales managers for their all-inclusive OTD price, including tax, tag, title and any dealer fees. If it's one penny over when it comes time to sign the paperwork, you walk, knowing you have a list of other dealers offers to attend to. Cuts out a lot of BSing and takes the least amount of time and stress.

The Brickyard Rat

iTrader: (1)

I'm not a guy who negociates to the last dime but if I saw a $600 doc fee, I'd walk after issuing a couple of "F U" to the sales/finance people.

tekk

i had to deal with that fee as well.

bottom line to me is, if i want the car for say $30k, it doesnt matter if the doc fee is $10k-- as long as the balance is $20k.

what i had a problem with was when the price was negotiated and then the doc fee pops up. i told the dealer that as far as im concerned the doc fee = profit, which is what im going to give them on the price of the car. they have paperwork to do, so do i. im not going to pay them extra to document their profits... so im not paying it. i left them the option of wrapping that into the price however they wanted to though, if their 'system' forces a $600 fee.

the dealer ended up doing just that and i was happy. but i wish i didnt even have to go through the motions. it seems that in some states they all do it (fl being one of them)

Louis21

iTrader: (1)

I just went to a dealer as well and they had the same dealer fee which was said to be a set fee charged on every purchase. I was looking at an enthusiast with the basic options (carpet, kick plates, splash guards) (inv. 28,371, msrp 30,660) So even when they offer me the car at invoice, in reality I'd be paying 600 over invoice plus ttt.
Carsdirect, on the other hand has the car for 300 over invoice...so I'm using that as a base to argue that even getting it from cars direct comes out cheaper since they do not charge a dealer's fee which comes out to 300 over invoice... I can understand a 100 dealer fee...but 600? Thats a bit much

350Z_LEE

iTrader: (9)

Our doc fee is inclusive of the title and regitration. We charge a handling fee though and it's 10 bucks. I'd say he is trying to get some more gross back in the deal, but you are getting a good deal. I'd buy it.

Louis21

iTrader: (1)

Their fee is not including tag /title...if it did it would make it a bit better since tag/title is around 160. The salesman was pretty honest in that sense he told me straight up that the dealer fee was "all profit"..since these days everyone has access to invoice prices etc... thats the way they keep their "lights on"....
However I still argue that even at invoice with no dealer fee, they are still making profit from holdback and floorplan so its not like the 600 bucks from the dealer profit is their only profit on the car...
We'll see what happens..