View Poll Results: Is the Nismo slower in the 1/4 mile than the Base 350Z?
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Is the Nismo slower in the 1/4 mile than the Base 350Z?
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Originally Posted by 3hree5ive0ero
Where's the "it doesn't matter" option?
The minute difference in weight will not matter too much in real life. Theoretically, the Nismo should be slower, but only on paper. That is, (going back to physics 101) in a perfect and equal launch and run (driving wise) for both cars with exact same coefficient of friction from the road surface, with exact same climate conditions, with exact same track variables, assuming both cars put down equal amount of power/torque to the ground on both wheels, etc etc.. Yes, the Nismo would be slower due to the stiffer suspension (affects launch), more downforce (which translates to more "weight"), among other things.
There are way too many variables to fully determine (and pointless) which is faster when in reality, DA and driver skills matter more than everything else.
The minute difference in weight will not matter too much in real life. Theoretically, the Nismo should be slower, but only on paper. That is, (going back to physics 101) in a perfect and equal launch and run (driving wise) for both cars with exact same coefficient of friction from the road surface, with exact same climate conditions, with exact same track variables, assuming both cars put down equal amount of power/torque to the ground on both wheels, etc etc.. Yes, the Nismo would be slower due to the stiffer suspension (affects launch), more downforce (which translates to more "weight"), among other things.
There are way too many variables to fully determine (and pointless) which is faster when in reality, DA and driver skills matter more than everything else.
Yes, it is also assuming that everything is perfectly matched in a perfect world. Once again, I will be more than happy to race a stock Nismo at the track. Just get a hold of me (through private message if you prefer). I'm going to the track soon anyway so I can better my stock time before I start modding.
Hooper: You're right, it's not 155 pounds right from the start. It accumulates as the car accelerates. At 75 mph the downforce difference is 73 pounds (+ vehicle difference) and the Z is in the 80 mph range by the time it hits the 1/8th mile mark. So a good percentage of the weight is present for a large portion of the track distance. Whether or not that matters is up to you.
Last edited by 2007 Z; Feb 19, 2008 at 11:04 PM.
I will put my base against a Nismo any day. The vdc/tcs on the other models is a negative factor as well.
As for Auto X my LSD will be in this weekend and I dont think you 10+ grand more price than mine will show up on the track.
Just some Base model pride for ya
As for Auto X my LSD will be in this weekend and I dont think you 10+ grand more price than mine will show up on the track.
Just some Base model pride for ya
Of coarse the driver is the one variable that no matter how much math you do the driver can F up any race. I have love for the nismo Z's dont get me wrong. Just not my cup of tea.
Originally Posted by 2007-Z
In this thread I will show the difference in vehicle weight between the Nismo and the base model Z due to downforce at 103 mph. Downforce is no different than physically adding weight to a vehicle, it's just achieved through aerodynamic means instead.
Using the downforce formula located here:
http://redline.wikispaces.com/air+resistance#
I have come up with the following:
Fd = v^2 * Cd * 0.5 * Da
where v is velocity, Cd is downforce coefficient, and Da is the density of air in kg*m^-3, as you can specify in the environment. The default is 1.2929 kg*m^-3 (which is the approximate air density near sea level).
This means that if we know the amount of downforce generated at a certain speed we can calculate the downforce coefficient, like this.
Cd = Fd * 2 / (v^2 * Da)
We already know from car and driver that the downforce on the Nismo is 55 pounds at 75 mph. So we need to convert these numbers to kilograms and kilometers per hour:
1 lbs. * .45359237 = kg
1 mph * 1.609344 = kph (look these up yourself)
Fd = 55 lbs. * .45359237 = 24.94758035 kg
v = 75 mph * 1.609344 = 120.7008 kph
Then we need to calculate the downforce coefficient for the Nismo in order to calculate the downforce at different speeds:
Cd = Fd * 2 / (v^2 * Da)
Cd = 24.94758035 * 2 / (120.7008^2 * 1.2929)
Cd = 49.8951607 / 18835.850406675456
Cd = .0027
Or, you can use the calculator if you want, it didn't work for me. But you'll still have to convert to metric.
Now that we have the downforce coefficient for the Nismo we can calculate the downforce at 103 mph, the trap speed recorded by car and driver like this:
v = 103 mph * 1.609344 = 165.762432 kph
So,
Fd = v^2 * Cd * 0.5 * Da
Fd = 165.762432^2 * .0027 * 0.5 * 1.2929
Fd = 27477.183862554624 * .0027 * 0.5 * 1.2929
Fd = 47.959 kg
47.959 / .45359237 = 105.65 lbs. downforce @ 103 mph
Now, just to be fair. The same information provided from car and driver stated that the base 350Z had 18 pounds of lift at 75. So that means at higher speeds it's going to be more lift. We can use these same formulas to calculate that as well. Lift would simply be a negative number rather than a positive number.
Fd = -18 lbs. * .45359237 = -8.16466266 kg
v = 75 mph * 1.609344 = 120.7008 kph
Then we need to calculate the downforce coefficient for the base 350Z in order to calculate the downforce at different speeds:
Cd = Fd * 2 / (v^2 * Da)
Cd = -8.16466266 * 2 / (120.7008^2 * 1.2929)
Cd = -16.32932532 / 18835.850406675456
Cd = -.0009
Now that we have the downforce coefficient for the base 350Z we can calculate the downforce at 103 mph:
v = 103 mph * 1.609344 = 165.762432 kph
So,
Fd = v^2 * Cd * 0.5 * Da
Fd = 165.762432^2 * -.0009 * 0.5 * 1.2929
Fd = 27477.183862554624 * -.0009 * 0.5 * 1.2929
Fd = -15.986 kg
-15.986 / .45359237 = -35.24 lbs. downforce @ 103 mph, or 35.24 lbs. of lift
Now the vehicle weights would be adjusted as follows:
Nismo Curb Weight = 3353 + 105.65 = 3458.65
Base Curb Weight = 3339 - 35.24 = 3303.76
That's 154.89 lbs. difference in vehicle weight at 103 mph. Basically like having another passenger (either a small guy or a big girl). Is that weight enough to affect the trap speed and ET of a 13 second car? You tell me.
Using the downforce formula located here:
http://redline.wikispaces.com/air+resistance#
I have come up with the following:
Fd = v^2 * Cd * 0.5 * Da
where v is velocity, Cd is downforce coefficient, and Da is the density of air in kg*m^-3, as you can specify in the environment. The default is 1.2929 kg*m^-3 (which is the approximate air density near sea level).
This means that if we know the amount of downforce generated at a certain speed we can calculate the downforce coefficient, like this.
Cd = Fd * 2 / (v^2 * Da)
We already know from car and driver that the downforce on the Nismo is 55 pounds at 75 mph. So we need to convert these numbers to kilograms and kilometers per hour:
1 lbs. * .45359237 = kg
1 mph * 1.609344 = kph (look these up yourself)
Fd = 55 lbs. * .45359237 = 24.94758035 kg
v = 75 mph * 1.609344 = 120.7008 kph
Then we need to calculate the downforce coefficient for the Nismo in order to calculate the downforce at different speeds:
Cd = Fd * 2 / (v^2 * Da)
Cd = 24.94758035 * 2 / (120.7008^2 * 1.2929)
Cd = 49.8951607 / 18835.850406675456
Cd = .0027
Or, you can use the calculator if you want, it didn't work for me. But you'll still have to convert to metric.
Now that we have the downforce coefficient for the Nismo we can calculate the downforce at 103 mph, the trap speed recorded by car and driver like this:
v = 103 mph * 1.609344 = 165.762432 kph
So,
Fd = v^2 * Cd * 0.5 * Da
Fd = 165.762432^2 * .0027 * 0.5 * 1.2929
Fd = 27477.183862554624 * .0027 * 0.5 * 1.2929
Fd = 47.959 kg
47.959 / .45359237 = 105.65 lbs. downforce @ 103 mph
Now, just to be fair. The same information provided from car and driver stated that the base 350Z had 18 pounds of lift at 75. So that means at higher speeds it's going to be more lift. We can use these same formulas to calculate that as well. Lift would simply be a negative number rather than a positive number.
Fd = -18 lbs. * .45359237 = -8.16466266 kg
v = 75 mph * 1.609344 = 120.7008 kph
Then we need to calculate the downforce coefficient for the base 350Z in order to calculate the downforce at different speeds:
Cd = Fd * 2 / (v^2 * Da)
Cd = -8.16466266 * 2 / (120.7008^2 * 1.2929)
Cd = -16.32932532 / 18835.850406675456
Cd = -.0009
Now that we have the downforce coefficient for the base 350Z we can calculate the downforce at 103 mph:
v = 103 mph * 1.609344 = 165.762432 kph
So,
Fd = v^2 * Cd * 0.5 * Da
Fd = 165.762432^2 * -.0009 * 0.5 * 1.2929
Fd = 27477.183862554624 * -.0009 * 0.5 * 1.2929
Fd = -15.986 kg
-15.986 / .45359237 = -35.24 lbs. downforce @ 103 mph, or 35.24 lbs. of lift
Now the vehicle weights would be adjusted as follows:
Nismo Curb Weight = 3353 + 105.65 = 3458.65
Base Curb Weight = 3339 - 35.24 = 3303.76
That's 154.89 lbs. difference in vehicle weight at 103 mph. Basically like having another passenger (either a small guy or a big girl). Is that weight enough to affect the trap speed and ET of a 13 second car? You tell me.
Holy Good Will Hunting Batman! Dude I give you props for your math skill but dam juts youtube nismo vs 350z. LOL
I don't get it? Whilst 1/4 mile times do give us a bit of a reference point in comparing 2 cars, it really is meaningless. I've seen El Caminos that could kick the hell out of an Enzo Ferrari on a drag strip, but which one do you think could get you to Vegas faster in a road trip? This is an extreme exaggeration of course, but you get my point.
Even without the math, I would surmise that the NISMO wouldn't run the 1320 as fast as a non-NISMO would. To be fair though, I think it would be better to compare an Enthusiast model with GT wheels. That way at least both have the VLSD and the same contact patch.
Even in a perfect environment with the exact same driver and launch, etc, the difference would be maybe 0.2 seconds (this is my guess and reflects nothing other than facts I have just made up). Try to count that.
Taking a car that isn't built for drag racing and then comparing it to a tuned version of the same car that is especially not built for drag racing and puting them on a 1/4 mile track is silly. Almost like comparing the stripped down base model to the more luxury based Touring model.
If you took two base model Z's and left the power output alone, then set up one for drag and one for a road course, you would get different times as well.
I'm not one of those that feels the need to justify my car's strengths and say it's the greatest thing ever to come to the U.S. market from Nissan. There are several "normal" Z's that were built by people on this forum that could hand my car it's *** on a track (1/4 mile, drift, auto-x, and proper road course). It's a good car, but your comparison takes it out of it's element.
Even without the math, I would surmise that the NISMO wouldn't run the 1320 as fast as a non-NISMO would. To be fair though, I think it would be better to compare an Enthusiast model with GT wheels. That way at least both have the VLSD and the same contact patch.
Even in a perfect environment with the exact same driver and launch, etc, the difference would be maybe 0.2 seconds (this is my guess and reflects nothing other than facts I have just made up). Try to count that.
Taking a car that isn't built for drag racing and then comparing it to a tuned version of the same car that is especially not built for drag racing and puting them on a 1/4 mile track is silly. Almost like comparing the stripped down base model to the more luxury based Touring model.
If you took two base model Z's and left the power output alone, then set up one for drag and one for a road course, you would get different times as well.
I'm not one of those that feels the need to justify my car's strengths and say it's the greatest thing ever to come to the U.S. market from Nissan. There are several "normal" Z's that were built by people on this forum that could hand my car it's *** on a track (1/4 mile, drift, auto-x, and proper road course). It's a good car, but your comparison takes it out of it's element.
I voted yes, because at the end of the day it will be slightly slower down a drag strip-but slightly faster in handling.
But I also vote to ban the a$$holes that wont let this petty $hit slide. We are all worse people for reading this garbage argument.
But I also vote to ban the a$$holes that wont let this petty $hit slide. We are all worse people for reading this garbage argument.
Originally Posted by WalkerT
I will put my base against a Nismo any day. The vdc/tcs on the other models is a negative factor as well.
As for Auto X my LSD will be in this weekend and I dont think you 10+ grand more price than mine will show up on the track.
Just some Base model pride for ya
As for Auto X my LSD will be in this weekend and I dont think you 10+ grand more price than mine will show up on the track.
Just some Base model pride for ya
Originally Posted by Alberto
I voted yes, because at the end of the day it will be slightly slower down a drag strip-but slightly faster in handling.
But I also vote to ban the a$$holes that wont let this petty $hit slide. We are all worse people for reading this garbage argument.
But I also vote to ban the a$$holes that wont let this petty $hit slide. We are all worse people for reading this garbage argument.
So who is the A hole you want banned?
To me it just seems like a bunch of talk and different points of veiws.
Originally Posted by Sensi09
Cool post 2007-Z. I'm too lazy to check the details at the moment, but will take a closer look later. Although, much of this comes down to the driver regardless, so even if a race is setup, it won't necessarily settle things.
I have a Nismo and have done a few short highway pulls against a stock '07 Z and it was pretty much even.
I have a Nismo and have done a few short highway pulls against a stock '07 Z and it was pretty much even.
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Originally Posted by 2007-Z
Now the vehicle weights would be adjusted as follows:
Nismo Curb Weight = 3353 + 105.65 = 3458.65
Base Curb Weight = 3339 - 35.24 = 3303.76
That's 154.89 lbs. difference in vehicle weight at 103 mph. Basically like having another passenger (either a small guy or a big girl). Is that weight enough to affect the trap speed and ET of a 13 second car? You tell me.
Nismo Curb Weight = 3353 + 105.65 = 3458.65
Base Curb Weight = 3339 - 35.24 = 3303.76
That's 154.89 lbs. difference in vehicle weight at 103 mph. Basically like having another passenger (either a small guy or a big girl). Is that weight enough to affect the trap speed and ET of a 13 second car? You tell me.
the question is really the impact of drag, and maybe rolling resistance, in addition to the weight difference. personally im not sure i see the nismo one being significantly slower. who knows, its structural revisions may enable better launches? there are a lot of variables for what is likely a very small difference.
Originally Posted by Rev
If people on a 350Z forum aren't going to talk about the 350Z, then what are they going to talk about? I find this information very useful in more than one way.
I don't think the structural revisions would factor into a better launch. Barring the difference between tire size and overall tire diameter (which might minutely alter your final drive ratio) and the VLSD, I think a greater contributer would be the NISMO tuned suspension. As it's 35% stiffer than the standard suspension, you should get less settling of the suspension before it lurched forward.
The factory NISMO suspension is far from stiff (I believe the S-tune spring/struts are stiffer than the NISMO has) and as far as drag racing would be concerned, probably would be comparable with the old track level suspension. The track models did have Billstein's that were different from the base models, correct?
But again, this all translates to fractions of a second.
The factory NISMO suspension is far from stiff (I believe the S-tune spring/struts are stiffer than the NISMO has) and as far as drag racing would be concerned, probably would be comparable with the old track level suspension. The track models did have Billstein's that were different from the base models, correct?
But again, this all translates to fractions of a second.