What will it take to be capable of having over 500hp
Registered User
Joined: Sep 2004
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From: Lewisville TX
Yes, 500 whp is possible on stock internals. Yes it is possible to rob a bank and get away with it. Should you?......................Probably not.
There is something that racers use called tolerance stacking. That means that you take hundreds of factory parts manufactured to factory spec i.e. +or- xxx and choose the ones that add up the best. With production VQ35's numbering in the tens of thousands you end up with naturally stacked engines that are the best combinations of factory tolerances. These engines are the exception, not the rule. To those who want to run 500whp on stock internals the question is not if, but when.
Juztin - you have the right idea and attitude
Barthelb - nothing like paying twice to do the job once eh?
There is something that racers use called tolerance stacking. That means that you take hundreds of factory parts manufactured to factory spec i.e. +or- xxx and choose the ones that add up the best. With production VQ35's numbering in the tens of thousands you end up with naturally stacked engines that are the best combinations of factory tolerances. These engines are the exception, not the rule. To those who want to run 500whp on stock internals the question is not if, but when.
Juztin - you have the right idea and attitude
Barthelb - nothing like paying twice to do the job once eh?
Registered User
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 430
Likes: 1
From: Nuclear Power
Originally posted by newtlicious
You definitely need to upgrade to forged internals (pistons and rods) The compression ratio you choose depends on how you want your power served up. Lower CR (8.5:1) will allow more total boost and higher peak hp numbers at the expense of slower spool up and softer off-boost response. Medium CR (9.5:1) will give you less room for error than 8.5:1 on max HP applications but better spool up and off boost response. Stock CR will give you the most hp per psi but the least amount of room for error in the tuning and not as much peak HP capability. You could still achieve 500whp on stock CR though.
The APS tt kit is the bomb diggity right now but even it has it's limitations. It is only capable of about 550whp or 12 psi before the fuel system runs out of poop. I think the best option, if you aren't interested in going much over 500whp is to upgrade to forged stock CR internals and APS TT at around 10-11 psi. This way you don't have to upgrade the fuel system too.
Don't bother with the titanium retainers and heavy duty springs. You only need these for over 7100 rpm which is unnecessary with a TT. Just remember, Horsepower costs money and reliable HP costs even more. For example......
APS TT.......................................................... .......$7,500
installation................................................ ..........$2500
forged rods........................................................ .$1,000
Forged pistons....................................................$ 500
ARP head studs...................................................$495
ARP main studs...................................................$300
engine assembly and machining.........................$2000????
clutchmasters stage III.......................................$395
Damn good duno tune........................................$1000
500 whp done right the first time
with no need to worry about spitting parts
out of the block...................................................$15, 690
You definitely need to upgrade to forged internals (pistons and rods) The compression ratio you choose depends on how you want your power served up. Lower CR (8.5:1) will allow more total boost and higher peak hp numbers at the expense of slower spool up and softer off-boost response. Medium CR (9.5:1) will give you less room for error than 8.5:1 on max HP applications but better spool up and off boost response. Stock CR will give you the most hp per psi but the least amount of room for error in the tuning and not as much peak HP capability. You could still achieve 500whp on stock CR though.
The APS tt kit is the bomb diggity right now but even it has it's limitations. It is only capable of about 550whp or 12 psi before the fuel system runs out of poop. I think the best option, if you aren't interested in going much over 500whp is to upgrade to forged stock CR internals and APS TT at around 10-11 psi. This way you don't have to upgrade the fuel system too.
Don't bother with the titanium retainers and heavy duty springs. You only need these for over 7100 rpm which is unnecessary with a TT. Just remember, Horsepower costs money and reliable HP costs even more. For example......
APS TT.......................................................... .......$7,500
installation................................................ ..........$2500
forged rods........................................................ .$1,000
Forged pistons....................................................$ 500
ARP head studs...................................................$495
ARP main studs...................................................$300
engine assembly and machining.........................$2000????
clutchmasters stage III.......................................$395
Damn good duno tune........................................$1000
500 whp done right the first time
with no need to worry about spitting parts
out of the block...................................................$15, 690
-ARP head studs and main studs combined for about 450 at SGP Racing. http://store.yahoo.com/sgpracing-store/index.html
-The clutch masters stage 3 is NOT good enough for the torque goals stated here. As their own website states, you only get about 110% more than a stock clutch. A stock Z get about 230ft-lbs to the wheels, so you figure the the stage 3 could only be safe or really useful to about ~450ft-lbs.
http://www.clutchmasters.com/shop/
I am going with a Titon semi-street with 8lb flywheel for about 1400.
-The estimate for an APS install seems a little low, especially because of that awesome fuel system it comes with.
This is just my 2 cents from a guy in the middle of an engine build up/forged internals.
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Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 64
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From: Lewisville TX
I knew it wouldn't be long before someone corrected me on what are admittedly estimates. I'm sure there are those out there who would charge more or less for the engine work too. Good call on the ARP stuff though. It had been awhile since I looked at SGP racing's site and I forgot they were sold together.
- 110% more than stock holding = twice the stock holding plus 10 percent = 500 lbft +/-. The stock clutch is holding much more than 230 lbft in some boosted applications. Some folks are running 350-400 lbft on the stock piece. That would put a clutchmasters stage 3 in the 800 lb ft range comparitively. The tiltons are certainly high tech and will hold just about anything but from what I've read on this forum they are difficult to drive and even harder to drive smoothly. I would love to hear your experiences with a tilton on an FI car since most of the tests I've read about were N/A. Maybe a little TT will put the tilton in it's place!
- 110% more than stock holding = twice the stock holding plus 10 percent = 500 lbft +/-. The stock clutch is holding much more than 230 lbft in some boosted applications. Some folks are running 350-400 lbft on the stock piece. That would put a clutchmasters stage 3 in the 800 lb ft range comparitively. The tiltons are certainly high tech and will hold just about anything but from what I've read on this forum they are difficult to drive and even harder to drive smoothly. I would love to hear your experiences with a tilton on an FI car since most of the tests I've read about were N/A. Maybe a little TT will put the tilton in it's place!
Last edited by newtlicious; Dec 8, 2004 at 04:14 AM.
Registered User
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 430
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From: Nuclear Power
Originally posted by newtlicious
I knew it wouldn't be long before someone corrected me on what are admittedly estimates. I'm sure there are those out there who would charge more or less for the engine work too. Good call on the ARP stuff though. It had been awhile since I looked at SGP racing's site and I forgot they were sold together.
- 110% more than stock holding = twice the stock holding plus 10 percent = 500 lbft +/-. The stock clutch is holding much more than 230 lbft in some boosted applications. Some folks are running 350-400 lbft on the stock piece. That would put a clutchmasters stage 3 in the 800 lb ft range comparitively. The tiltons are certainly high tech and will hold just about anything but from what I've read on this forum they are difficult to drive and even harder to drive smoothly. I would love to hear your experiences with a tilton on an FI car since most of the tests I've read about were N/A. Maybe a little TT will put the tilton in it's place!
I knew it wouldn't be long before someone corrected me on what are admittedly estimates. I'm sure there are those out there who would charge more or less for the engine work too. Good call on the ARP stuff though. It had been awhile since I looked at SGP racing's site and I forgot they were sold together.
- 110% more than stock holding = twice the stock holding plus 10 percent = 500 lbft +/-. The stock clutch is holding much more than 230 lbft in some boosted applications. Some folks are running 350-400 lbft on the stock piece. That would put a clutchmasters stage 3 in the 800 lb ft range comparitively. The tiltons are certainly high tech and will hold just about anything but from what I've read on this forum they are difficult to drive and even harder to drive smoothly. I would love to hear your experiences with a tilton on an FI car since most of the tests I've read about were N/A. Maybe a little TT will put the tilton in it's place!
I have to agree with Kyle, As far as I know the only person smart enough (or really balzy) is Charles and he dynoed the most at 487 on stock bottom end and the only reason that is, is because he was a mad scientist in his former life...if they are telling you they are over 500hp they are exagerating...there might be a couple of guys that are in the 400HP range but they have spent some dough to get there.
Master
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 2,517
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From: California
He said what will it take to be capable of haveing over 500 hp. Does he mean to the wheels or does he mean he wants to get his engine to output 500hp. And there are dyno's to prove it. Im not just talkin out my **** here. These are done, proven, beat hard and have put down over 400 to the wheels. So that's at least 500 to the engine if not more. But if some are still skeptical. I will post a dyno once mine is finished. To have over that you would definitely want to reinforce your internals. But its possible. Guess I'll work on that bank heist!!!
Later
Later
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 250
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From: NJ
Originally posted by barthelb
He said what will it take to be capable of haveing over 500 hp. Does he mean to the wheels or does he mean he wants to get his engine to output 500hp. And there are dyno's to prove it. Im not just talkin out my **** here. These are done, proven, beat hard and have put down over 400 to the wheels. So that's at least 500 to the engine if not more. But if some are still skeptical. I will post a dyno once mine is finished. To have over that you would definitely want to reinforce your internals. But its possible. Guess I'll work on that bank heist!!!
Later
He said what will it take to be capable of haveing over 500 hp. Does he mean to the wheels or does he mean he wants to get his engine to output 500hp. And there are dyno's to prove it. Im not just talkin out my **** here. These are done, proven, beat hard and have put down over 400 to the wheels. So that's at least 500 to the engine if not more. But if some are still skeptical. I will post a dyno once mine is finished. To have over that you would definitely want to reinforce your internals. But its possible. Guess I'll work on that bank heist!!!
Later
Registered User
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 64
Likes: 0
From: Lewisville TX
Originally posted by going deep
Your estimate was really good, I only had a few exceptions. What are your plans as far as power mods?
Your estimate was really good, I only had a few exceptions. What are your plans as far as power mods?
I'm shooting for the most I can safely get on 91 octane. I'd hate to drive to another state and be stuck cause I can't find 93. I want a conservative tune since it gets so damn hot here in texas and I plan on beating on her daily! I'm hoping for 550 whpI'm planning a kenwood DDX7015 molded into the factory opening and an 8" kenwood touchscreen flushed into the nav pocket (eliminating the door) for the Kenwood nav and DVD functions. This along with a full complement of JL amps in the trunk, 8W7's behind the seats (roadster) and Focal 3 way separates in the doors followed by a full alcantara interior if I have any money left
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