How much serious interest is there in a complete ECU replacement?
05-11-2005, 06:00 PM
#21
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Well, from the other threads, going by what a supposed tech said, 320HP is do'able with the right ECM tunning.
I think that is a good number to shoot for, for N/A
I think that is a good number to shoot for, for N/A
05-11-2005, 06:01 PM
#22
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there is no way in hell you are going to get a computer and software to tune it with for less than 2-3k
best bet would be to get an ECU that can be updated with an email tune
best bet would be to get an ECU that can be updated with an email tune
05-11-2005, 06:06 PM
#24
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All we need is a simple Dyno program.
http://www.gtechpro.com/rr.html
Considering this thing is close, something like it could be adapted.
http://www.gtechpro.com/rr.html
Considering this thing is close, something like it could be adapted.
05-11-2005, 06:41 PM
#26
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Originally Posted by nis350ztt
Further specifying is required.
Laptop capability? User able to adjust settings on their own (from a list of pre-tuned maps, etc.)? Estimated price? What kind of gain could we see? What kind of time frame until this will be ready to sell?
KWIKZ (2005, track, 6 speed $899-999)
jcn30127 (2004 6mt, price expected=open, concerns/comments/questions=at least 2 maps available/switchable)
DayBlueZ (2004 5AT, $1,000 , will we be able to control it? or will it control us? will it have memory for different settings?)
zillinois (2003 6MT, $800-1,200 , depending on functionality)
kpiskin (2003 Touring 5AT, $400-500, want ECU automatically adjust to mods as they come (eg. plenum, pop charger, cats, exhaust etc.) without slowly losing power and requiring a reset of the ECU. I don't need any real level of control, but would want to take advantage of non-FI mods.)
Z BOY (2003 Performance, 6MT, $500-2,000 , at least 2 maps: 1 for daily driving, 1 for WOT/350CHP, ASAFP)
ZU L8R (2003 Touring/5AT/$800-$1,000)
nizmoz
Does this look good so far?
Laptop capability? User able to adjust settings on their own (from a list of pre-tuned maps, etc.)? Estimated price? What kind of gain could we see? What kind of time frame until this will be ready to sell?
KWIKZ (2005, track, 6 speed $899-999)
jcn30127 (2004 6mt, price expected=open, concerns/comments/questions=at least 2 maps available/switchable)
DayBlueZ (2004 5AT, $1,000 , will we be able to control it? or will it control us? will it have memory for different settings?)
zillinois (2003 6MT, $800-1,200 , depending on functionality)
kpiskin (2003 Touring 5AT, $400-500, want ECU automatically adjust to mods as they come (eg. plenum, pop charger, cats, exhaust etc.) without slowly losing power and requiring a reset of the ECU. I don't need any real level of control, but would want to take advantage of non-FI mods.)
Z BOY (2003 Performance, 6MT, $500-2,000 , at least 2 maps: 1 for daily driving, 1 for WOT/350CHP, ASAFP)
ZU L8R (2003 Touring/5AT/$800-$1,000)
nizmoz
Does this look good so far?
BTW...
DO NOT tell me to add your member name if you have already been added on 350ZMotoring or **********.
Last edited by nis350ztt; 05-11-2005 at 08:28 PM.
05-11-2005, 08:32 PM
#32
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Originally Posted by nis350ztt
Further specifying is required.
Laptop capability? User able to adjust settings on their own (from a list of pre-tuned maps, etc.)? Estimated price? What kind of gain could we see? What kind of time frame until this will be ready to sell?
[All members listed are of my350z unless specified from another forum]
KWIKZ (2005, track, 6 speed $899-999)
jcn30127 (2004 6mt, price expected=open, concerns/comments/questions=at least 2 maps available/switchable)
DayBlueZ (2004 5AT, $1,000 , will we be able to control it? or will it control us? will it have memory for different settings?)
zillinois (2003 6MT, $800-1,200 , depending on functionality)
kpiskin (2003 Touring 5AT, $400-500, want ECU automatically adjust to mods as they come (eg. plenum, pop charger, cats, exhaust etc.) without slowly losing power and requiring a reset of the ECU. I don't need any real level of control, but would want to take advantage of non-FI mods.)
Z BOY (2003 Performance, 6MT, $500-2,000 , at least 2 maps: 1 for daily driving, 1 for WOT/350CHP, ASAFP)
ZU L8R (2003 Touring/5AT/$800-$1,000)
nizmoz
subdriver [350ZMotoring] (year?, transmission?, price frame?, concerns are the same as kpiskins')
Does this look good so far?
Laptop capability? User able to adjust settings on their own (from a list of pre-tuned maps, etc.)? Estimated price? What kind of gain could we see? What kind of time frame until this will be ready to sell?
[All members listed are of my350z unless specified from another forum]
KWIKZ (2005, track, 6 speed $899-999)
jcn30127 (2004 6mt, price expected=open, concerns/comments/questions=at least 2 maps available/switchable)
DayBlueZ (2004 5AT, $1,000 , will we be able to control it? or will it control us? will it have memory for different settings?)
zillinois (2003 6MT, $800-1,200 , depending on functionality)
kpiskin (2003 Touring 5AT, $400-500, want ECU automatically adjust to mods as they come (eg. plenum, pop charger, cats, exhaust etc.) without slowly losing power and requiring a reset of the ECU. I don't need any real level of control, but would want to take advantage of non-FI mods.)
Z BOY (2003 Performance, 6MT, $500-2,000 , at least 2 maps: 1 for daily driving, 1 for WOT/350CHP, ASAFP)
ZU L8R (2003 Touring/5AT/$800-$1,000)
nizmoz
subdriver [350ZMotoring] (year?, transmission?, price frame?, concerns are the same as kpiskins')
Does this look good so far?
BTW...
DO NOT tell me to add your member name if you have already been added on 350ZMotoring or **********.
Last edited by nis350ztt; 05-11-2005 at 08:34 PM.
05-11-2005, 08:34 PM
#33
Originally Posted by nis350ztt
I have a source that said they would consider it if there was a huge demand for it.
So report here if you are honestly interested in getting one if the results and price are fair.
Once I get a list, i'll send them a reply and see what they think.
The company is reputable with Subaru's and wanted to stick to Subaru's, but like I said, if there is a huge demand, they would seriously consider it.
So report here if you are honestly interested in getting one if the results and price are fair.
Once I get a list, i'll send them a reply and see what they think.
The company is reputable with Subaru's and wanted to stick to Subaru's, but like I said, if there is a huge demand, they would seriously consider it.
These a reason why no ECU's are available for this thing. It would take 2 years for them to finish R&D.
05-11-2005, 08:38 PM
#35
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Originally Posted by 350Zteve
Has this company even taken a look at the Z computer? They have no idea what they are getting into. There are so many complex systems that the ECU controls besides the engine. Everything from the theft deterent system, to the drive by wire with 4 separate redundant systems, to even the brains that drops the window a fraction when the door is opened.
These a reason why no ECU's are available for this thing. It would take 2 years for them to finish R&D.
These a reason why no ECU's are available for this thing. It would take 2 years for them to finish R&D.
I think if they believed it couldn't be done, that they wouldn't have even told me that they would consider it if there was a high demand.
05-11-2005, 08:39 PM
#36
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Basically, IMO, if they make it, it will be like a standalone, however, the standalones currently available will take away features such as TCS/VDC/Cruise control (it works improperly)/etc.
05-11-2005, 08:44 PM
#37
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Heck, there has to be a blueprint for that little bastard. It's not a national secret. It's a vehilce control computer. It's not like the fate of the world lies in the secret of a 350Z ECM!!!
05-11-2005, 11:18 PM
#38
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Wow... not another standalone thread...
Ok folks here is the skinny on ECU development for the 350Z. (and you guys and gals might want to pay real close attention here, there will be a quiz afterwards)
There are companies working on developing a standalone or plug-n-pray unit for the Z. The ECU mfgs have been working on development since the release of the vehicle. One of the major hold up's is the CAN bus protocol. The complexity of the CAN protocal has keep progress on a very slow track. Other things that have not helped the release of a Z ECU:
Image for a second you are an ECU mfg. Now would you like to devote a large part of your company's limited engineering/coding/mfg resources to a small market, I.E. 350Z, or turn out the cookie cutter ECU's for Hondas. EVO's, STI's, etc...
These popular ECU are based off of prior models ECU's. The Honda ECU for example hasn't really changed much since the switch to OBD-II protcolin the mid-90's . Many years of development plus a million of the little buggers on the road makes this a very attractive market. Remember they are in business to make money, not to cater to every niche market.
There are alot of requests in this thread on what kind of features you the end customers would like to see. Ok by a show of hands, who here has FIRST hand experience tuning a vehicle. I do not mean "tuning" a S-AFC, or the like, but hours of time spent hunched over a laptop while on the dyno and/or @ the track.
Going to go out on a limb here, not really, and saying very few.
Giving open access ECU to a customer is a very frightening experience most if not all of the tuning industry. If you do not know exactly what you are doing it's very easy to turn a high performance motor into a very pretty looking paper weight. You could not pay me enough money to be on AEM's Tech support line. (I'm just using AEM since they and their EMS issues are fairly well know even outside of the tuning community.) When AEM released their plug-n-pray boards for the Honda's every pizza delivery kid w/ an extra $1.5k on their CC ordered the ECU. Now imagine what it was like those first couple of months working the tech line when everyone who had an issue, problem, lack of knowledge, was calling up looking for an answer. Where is the ECU located in my car? How do I make power? I plugged it in and it doesn't work. My motor blew up and it's all your fault. etc...
You can see how this got very ugly, very quickly. Hence the AEM solution. The EMS forum. We are too busy turning out ECU's to answer questions so we'll just let them figure it out on their own and share the knowledge.
You can see why ECU manufacturing is not a glamorous or extremely attractive business venture. Customer support is a very large and tangable expense.
If and when a system specific to the Z platform becomes available do not expect it to be cheap. Expect to pay upwards of $2k if/when a plug-n-pray becomes available. For you guys looking for a sub-$1k solution, don't hold your breath. It's never going to happen.
There are solutions on the market already.
Basic engine control is not an issue. The problem lies in incorporating the stock sensor and control features to play nice w/ the new ecu. Is you are willing to completly re-sensor the engine and/or give up certain features, VCTC, TBW,etc. You could have a system ready to wire in @ your door in a few days. Once again expect $2.5k+, and that's a big +.
I have seen first hand a ECU developed specifically for the Z. I am working w/ the mfg. I have the software. The first test car should be running in the near future. This system is geared towards professional race teams. Pricing is expected to be in the $5k range, for the entry level version. Pimp version expect 5 digits.
Well if you've read this far, I'll offer a little bit of an apology for the rant. It's just that the development of an ECU isn't something that can just be turned out overnight or even in a 6 month time period. If you do a search of the forum you will find that this topic keeps floating to the surface every couple of months when some company claims that an ECU for us is "just a few months away". Same song and dance we have been hearing for over 2 years now. Eventually it will happen. Keep calling and pressuring the mfg. Just have realistic expectation. I guess that really the purpose of this post to perhaps shed a bit of light upon the nature of why it is taking so long and the process behind it all.
Ok folks here is the skinny on ECU development for the 350Z. (and you guys and gals might want to pay real close attention here, there will be a quiz afterwards)
There are companies working on developing a standalone or plug-n-pray unit for the Z. The ECU mfgs have been working on development since the release of the vehicle. One of the major hold up's is the CAN bus protocol. The complexity of the CAN protocal has keep progress on a very slow track. Other things that have not helped the release of a Z ECU:
Image for a second you are an ECU mfg. Now would you like to devote a large part of your company's limited engineering/coding/mfg resources to a small market, I.E. 350Z, or turn out the cookie cutter ECU's for Hondas. EVO's, STI's, etc...
These popular ECU are based off of prior models ECU's. The Honda ECU for example hasn't really changed much since the switch to OBD-II protcolin the mid-90's . Many years of development plus a million of the little buggers on the road makes this a very attractive market. Remember they are in business to make money, not to cater to every niche market.
There are alot of requests in this thread on what kind of features you the end customers would like to see. Ok by a show of hands, who here has FIRST hand experience tuning a vehicle. I do not mean "tuning" a S-AFC, or the like, but hours of time spent hunched over a laptop while on the dyno and/or @ the track.
Going to go out on a limb here, not really, and saying very few.
Giving open access ECU to a customer is a very frightening experience most if not all of the tuning industry. If you do not know exactly what you are doing it's very easy to turn a high performance motor into a very pretty looking paper weight. You could not pay me enough money to be on AEM's Tech support line. (I'm just using AEM since they and their EMS issues are fairly well know even outside of the tuning community.) When AEM released their plug-n-pray boards for the Honda's every pizza delivery kid w/ an extra $1.5k on their CC ordered the ECU. Now imagine what it was like those first couple of months working the tech line when everyone who had an issue, problem, lack of knowledge, was calling up looking for an answer. Where is the ECU located in my car? How do I make power? I plugged it in and it doesn't work. My motor blew up and it's all your fault. etc...
You can see how this got very ugly, very quickly. Hence the AEM solution. The EMS forum. We are too busy turning out ECU's to answer questions so we'll just let them figure it out on their own and share the knowledge.
You can see why ECU manufacturing is not a glamorous or extremely attractive business venture. Customer support is a very large and tangable expense.
If and when a system specific to the Z platform becomes available do not expect it to be cheap. Expect to pay upwards of $2k if/when a plug-n-pray becomes available. For you guys looking for a sub-$1k solution, don't hold your breath. It's never going to happen.
There are solutions on the market already.
Basic engine control is not an issue. The problem lies in incorporating the stock sensor and control features to play nice w/ the new ecu. Is you are willing to completly re-sensor the engine and/or give up certain features, VCTC, TBW,etc. You could have a system ready to wire in @ your door in a few days. Once again expect $2.5k+, and that's a big +.
I have seen first hand a ECU developed specifically for the Z. I am working w/ the mfg. I have the software. The first test car should be running in the near future. This system is geared towards professional race teams. Pricing is expected to be in the $5k range, for the entry level version. Pimp version expect 5 digits.
Well if you've read this far, I'll offer a little bit of an apology for the rant. It's just that the development of an ECU isn't something that can just be turned out overnight or even in a 6 month time period. If you do a search of the forum you will find that this topic keeps floating to the surface every couple of months when some company claims that an ECU for us is "just a few months away". Same song and dance we have been hearing for over 2 years now. Eventually it will happen. Keep calling and pressuring the mfg. Just have realistic expectation. I guess that really the purpose of this post to perhaps shed a bit of light upon the nature of why it is taking so long and the process behind it all.
05-11-2005, 11:24 PM
#39
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The company I am dealing with, shouldn't have a problem with "small market" because they only deal with Subaru's as it is anyway.
Like I said, there are drawbacks to the current standalones.
I think $1,000-2,000 is do-able. Even if it's less than $4k it's still cheaper than a few standalones and only a little more than the others.
I do believe that we could see this happen in 1 to 2 years since they know what they are doing.
As far as AEM, i'm starting to think they suck more and more everyday. Lack of support, lack of updates, putting off projects, etc.
Like I said, there are drawbacks to the current standalones.
I think $1,000-2,000 is do-able. Even if it's less than $4k it's still cheaper than a few standalones and only a little more than the others.
I do believe that we could see this happen in 1 to 2 years since they know what they are doing.
As far as AEM, i'm starting to think they suck more and more everyday. Lack of support, lack of updates, putting off projects, etc.
05-11-2005, 11:39 PM
#40
underpressure, thanx for your input. about internet abyss's thread where the nissan engineer made the solution seem so easy, have you read that thread? have the ecu developers out there read it? is it total bs?
ps: here's a link to that thread:https://my350z.com/forum/showthread....engineer+phone
ps: here's a link to that thread:https://my350z.com/forum/showthread....engineer+phone
Last edited by Z BOY; 05-11-2005 at 11:45 PM.