I've raised the same question in the past when I first starting modding this engine.

What I came up with is that, for the cost of cams ($1500), and installing them yourself and tuning your car for the cams yourself, you're still looking at $100/hp - 15-20 whp is what folks seem to be getting with cams on the VQ.

Keep in mind that hardly anybody here does any of their own work, so look at another $500-$1k for install and tuning of the cams (oh yeah, you need to have another $800 for the EMS of the forum's, I mean your, choice - UTEC, probably) and you'll see that you're half way to a ST or SC kit (parts-wise, anyway). Add in the cost of a set of aftermarket heads (Cosworth is the only one I know of, and they run about $4k iirc) and you may get 40-50whp TOTAL from heads/cam/tune and that's if you're very lucky. So, you're spending ~$7k for maybe 40-50 whp, when you could spend the same amount on a fully installed and tuned ST or SC kit that will easily get you over 100 whp and can be removed to return the car to stock without having to completely dismantle the top half of engine.

Parts and services for these cars are still at the ***-raping level right now. With a few more years of parts development and a lot more tuners available to work on these engines, the prices will come down accordingly.

 

well... it shouldn't be too hard... there are a few people have those already and I have something similar too.... for more info...

https://my350z.com/forum/showthread....Ferrea+8000rpm

cheers,

richie

 

My recipe for a monster NA set-up.

Intake, Headers, Exhaust, Upper Plenum, Larger TB, Clutch, lightweight FW, UDP, 3.9FD, Some nice cams, port/polished heads, and if you really want to get serious higher compression pistons, lightweight rods-all tuned with at least a UTEC. This would easily get you over 300whp, and the potential for sick NA 1/4 times with only a set of DR's or slicks....

 

Thats a built engine. Building a engine is way beyond most people. I am talking about basic NA mods. Basic NA mods are Cams, headers, exhaust, intake, pullies, spacers/isolators, TB, tuning. Off the shelf stuff that you just put onto the motor. It seems that no one on this forum has even done this. At least not with long tube headers (crawford are not longtube). Even people who use cams are very limited it seems.

 

Cams are $1200 straight from JWT, less elsewhere I am sure. It's a V6 thats pretty standard. They can't be that hard to install yourself. If you add valve springs to the S7 cams that go on the Rev Up engine you get a higher redline as well. All these things would make a huge difference to the VQ. I think people just don't seem to get that 15-20whp is HUGE for a NA mod, adding more rev's is also very good. It's the soul of your NA build and is one of the only NA mods that will carry forward when you go with some sort of boost. Saying that the NA build cost the same as boost is a valid point, if it truely does. But na is reliable, no worries about the tranny, lower hp NA cars are faster then similiar HP boost cars due to the shape of the curve. A 12sec 110+ mph NA would be a great autocross, street HPDE car.

 

Yeah, it really does cost just as much to build n/a as it does for a single turbo or supercharger. If you decide to do the bottom end, then you can go either way and go for a high compression n/a setup, or you can just change pistons and set it up for a twin turbo. Then your looking at FAR more power potential for the FI setup than you could possibly dream about getting out of the n/a setup.

Believe me, I wish it were a different case. I came over here from Corvetteland, and seeing head/cam swaps that cost $2k and netted anywhere from 50-100+ hp all the time to seeing the relatively small gains made with similar upgrades on these engines was (and still is) sickening.

I'd love to rip the valve covers off my engine and drop some new cams in, and I may do that someday if I find a great deal on some cams (they're FS in the marketplace quite a bit, usually for about $700). But it's not top on my list of priorities in life right now. Heads are a different story. Those prices need to come down to about half of what they are right now to be reasonable.

 

I think the bottleneck for NA gains is the ECU. Even with the cams, heads, headers, and intake, you're going to have top raise the rev limit and get a more agressive tune to make big power gains. Raising the limit to a do-able 8k will require new valvetrain and rod bolts, minimum. So much for basic bolt-ons at this point. To make good NA power, bolt-ons and basic mods won't cut it. With a good stand-alone and someone who actually knows how to tune a CVTC system for proper timing advance and retard with aggressive cams, I really think 330-340 whp is realistic. But who's going to drop the coin for all that when a slap-on super charger or turbo kit will do the same with a lot less fuss? Pioneers are always admired but rarely duplicated, the easy road is the road most taken. Even as I plan my engine mods, the thought of making a built NA engine sounds great, but will probably go FI and let someone else be the pioneer for NA power.
Will
EDIT: should say, the bolt ons will net you power in the 290whp range and if you're looking for your whp to match stock bhp, then that can be accomplished without tearing into the engine or a high-end tune.

 

and more on the way

the reason people have not is simple - cost/hp. It's far easier of a project to go FI, but that's not for everyone. Richie was really the first to test the NA bounds and has a monster car as a result. Others are in stages of builds now with different components, so it's time to bring some NA love stateside

 

because to take advantage of the true power making NA cams requires alot more than a drop in install...it gets really expensive, really quick, and that is the thing that turns most off

 

Thats a myth. You don't have to tune cams with cam gears. JWT designs them to be a drop in straight up install. You can dail them in. Buts it's not needed. If you don't you will still have good gains. I have seen JDM cams and off brand ones that require tuning to be close to right. But not JWT cams.

 

cam gears? who mentioned cam gears? There is ALOT of head work needed to make the truly great NA cams work. Some will even require the NISMO VTC pullies, some don't. But all will only be truly beneficial with a full sorted head, which again, most people won't/can't do

Yes JWT, and the NISMO Spec 1 are drop ins...they are also really, really mild cams relative to stock (thus why they dont need much tuning afterwards). IMHO, they are not worth the small investment. Only full bore cams (Esprit, JUN, Tomei, NISMO Spec 2, etc) are truly worthwhile (again, IMHO) but to make them each work, alot of other work, parts, money, and time is needed.

 

In your opinion. Everyone needs to decide what is worthwhile for themselves. I am not one to think that it's all or nothing. Clearly if you do major changes then to the basic engine then you will get more from cams by tuning them after all that work is done. That in no way means cams for a basic bolt on engine with a stock longblock are a waste of money. I really can't believe someone selling products would have such "all or nothing thinking". Adding 20hp is not a waste of time. Adding 500 rpm to the revband with new springs is defiantly nice to have and not a waste of time. A simple JWT cam and spring combo would easily do this on a full bolt on motor. I have seen 5whp and 500rpm drop my 1/4 mile time by 3/10ths and add 3mph to my trap speed. Simple OEM JDM cams did that for me on my previous Nissan.

 

http://www.jimwolftechnology.com/wol...INCL_REVUP.pdf

https://my350z.com/forum/showthread.php?t=232054

Here is a comparison of the JWT vs Tomie.

S7 (for Rev Up engine) 11.43 lift, 243 duration.
S2 10.92 lift, 256 duration.
S1 10.9 lift, 260 duration.
C2 11.58 lift, 261 duration. Requires springs.

Poncam1, 10.2 lift, 256 duration. Stock Springs ok.
Poncam2. 10.0 lift, 264 duration. Stock Springs ok.
Procam1 10.5 lift, 272 duration. Springs needed.
Procam2, 11.3 lift, 272 duration. Springs needed.
Procam3 11.3mm lift intake, 11.0 lift exhaust. 280 degrees, Springs needed

Just so we have a basis for comparison, stock cams for the 2003-2005 non revup models are: Stock 350Z camshafts measure 238° duration, 9.2 mm lift (Intake), and 240°, 9.2mm lift (Exhaust).

Stock Rev Up cams have about 10.6 lift (using my dial calipers to convert .417" to mm). And 248 duration.

Numbers speak for themselves. JWT has more lift with out requiring springs but has less duration. Rev Up has more lift then your big dog cams, less duration then any but the timing control on the Rev Up probably is the reason for this. Cams are not simply about the numbers. It's the shape of the ramp on the cam as well. Duration is measured in a variety of ways. So its very difficult to compare duration unless you know what lift they are measure at. Plus, the ramp of the cam determines the power of the cam and their is no way to quantify this easily. Ramp of the cam is probably why JWT gives you more lift with out the need for springs vs Tomie with less lift but the need for springs earlier. It's all about how fast you accelerate the valve. Not saying one is better then the other but most the JWT cams are not “Weak”

 

I'm not saying these things to hear myself speak - I speak from experience, having owned, modded and worked on these cars since 03, and I think I've got a really good handle on what this community wants and expects out of the mods they buy...not to mention, what they are, and are not willing to drop coin on. Don't take me the wrong way - I'm not saying what I am saying to play devil's advocate, I am saying what I am saying because I know it to be true, having been here for so long, and having spent 3 + years with my own Z and countless customer cars.

What the cam specs are for the RevUp is not part of what I am discussing, because as of now, if you want RevUp cams, you have 2 choices - HKS, which are not offered in the US, nor will be (since it requires alot of tuning with software that they do not offer here) and JWT. So let's take that out of the discussion.

I know all about the ramp angles, and that is again, why I said what I said. The JWT I was referring to were specifically the base cam they offer - since I've yet to see anyone who has anything else. If someone has results, I'd love to see them. Not sure what model cam JWt calls the common one, but it's in the same league as the NISMO R Tune cams - that is, a very mild cam. Yes, both the NISMO and the JWT give gains on NA use - they give better gains FI, but NA, the power difference is not earth shattering relative to what it will cost you to get the cams int he car.

Adding 20 whp is certainly nothing - I've added more than 30 whp to my base dyno, without cams and without headers, and using cats. But, most people don't have the time nor inclination to dedicate as much to the tuning side of thing as I have. What's more, even with 265-270 whp and a 3.9 (describes my cars current state of tune), the car, is at best "quick" - it certainly ain't forced induction quick, nor does it throw you back in the seat very much (due the sheer weight of the car), and that's what most people want or expect. Yes its fun, but it gets walked by alot of cars out there, plain and simple - I have no delusions of grandeur - my cars bark, in it's current state, is worse than it's bite. That will be changing (hopefully) soon.

You're coming out of a vastly different community. I was in the K20 side of things too, as we had an EP3 for awhile (and now an FG Si). 20 whp on a K20 and 20 whp on a VQ are completely different. That car revs, this car doesn't (stock form). That car was light, this car isn't. That car had 0 torque to get out of its own way, this car does. As such, the net feel of 20 whp or 20 ft lbs, while noticeable on this car, feels like a shot in the arm on an EP. Not to mention, dropping cams into a Civic and doing headers is WAY easier than it is on this car. Then you get into the tuning side of things. Most people use a UTEC as it is the most cost effective solution and does a ton of things and allows you room to grow into whatever mod path you want down the road. But, even with a deal it's not an inexpensive part, and then many still need to pay someone to tune it for them. Yes we have the mail in flashes too - they also are not cheap, and they still pale in comparison to an on the car road/dyno tune. Exhaust, UTEC, cams, install and tune can easily run you $4k and up - and that right there is why you don't see a ton of people going the NA route. $4k is alot of money, especially when a bit more gets you in the FI club, where 400 whp is common. Most people just wait it out, go FI, and are very happy as a result.

So, again, the reason you don't see many proper NA builds, is because of the sheer money and time it takes to do it right. Cams, install, exhaust and a tune is about the price of a Vortech (parts only) - and that's why so many people pick that route.

Read what everyone else has written, and you'll see what I mean. If this community is going to drop big money, they want big power. Yes a 12 second, legit street car (ala a Viper GTS, 911 GT3, etc etc) would be awesome for a Z - and it takes ALOT of money to get there. Getting a Z there is no easy task, and that's why you don't see the Z community littered with such cars. Remember, to date, there are 2 people, 2, who I know, who have posted legit 300 + whp dyno's. 400 whp NA? Major reconstructive surgery needed for that to occur (would be an animal though!) Only 1 300 whp resided in the US (he has since gone FI and has one of the highest hp, most complete cars here). Not a single person yet has done it with a stock bottom end...that right there should tell you all you need to know. Sure, there are alot of people claiming they have, or that the shop they work for has, or they have a friend who has or whatever, but so far those 2 people stepped up with sheets. As such, the comminity as a whole sorta decided that if you are going to mod for power, FI is the more cost effective route to go. It might appear to not be a difficult thing to achieve, but in reality, it's proven ellusive. I had a goal at one time to post a legit 300 whp dyno using my stock bottom end. I have since moved on to new goals.

 

All I hear is you making assumptions. You have no experiance with the rev up cams, I happen to have a rev up engine. You have no experiance with anything besides the mildest JWT cams. You assume I had a K20 before. I have never owned a honda/acura in my life (not including my lawnmower). My forum name should pretty much give away what I have owned before (but not exclusivly). I just wish people who have no experiance with a product would stop trying to desuad others from gaining more information about these products. This forum has a mentality of "NA is a waste of time". But look how many NA people we have. Very few people will have a turbo VQ. Simply because to do it right requires a commetment of many thousand dollars all at one time. NA you can do a little at a time. Plus, boost requires a totally different level of commitment then a NA car. You assume to know what the community wants. You clearly don't know what I want. Clearly some people in this thread are interested in the "Full NA Bolt On" optoin as well. Please don't talk to me about supercharges. Every test I have seen about 350Z bolt on superchargers leaves me wondering "why bother" Great dyno numbers, not so great real world performance. So you buy a bolt on kit and have to mod that kit to get great performance. I still remember the days the JWT NA 350Z went heads up against 2-3 supercharged cars and performed better then those high priced options. Anyway, we are talking about cams. They can be used FI or NA. Clearly not a waste of money. Cams ussually give terrific performance gains when tuned for boost.

 

I thought I had read you mention something about the Honda world - sorry -might have been a different thread I was thinking of, so my mistake.

You did not mention (that I read) you had a revup - totally different world then. Because as I said, there are 1 set of cams you can get for it. Go ahead, get em, drop em in, do some tuning and see where you end up, will be cool to see the results. Then you get into the tuning side. How are you going to tune for all those mods? The stock ecu is not going to adjust itself for them, and some form of tuning, via a flash, or a utec (but not having control over the cam timing). Like I said from the start, it adds up.

Plenty of people have done what you want to do (non revups, since the JWT revup cams are still very new), and gotten ok numbers - and spent a fortune doing so. Fewer have done it with the revup motors because for one, there are not nearly as many revup cars here as there are non.

Everyone has their recipe for what would make a 300 whp car - yet no one has done it. Sorta makes one wonder. Is it because it can't be done? I don't think so. Is it because it costs alot of money, relative to just going FI? That, I think, is the reason.

I am not dissuading anyone from doing anything - if that's the mod path you want to take, more power to ya. Personally, I am not interested in FI on either of our in house Z's, and NA is the route we are going with both cars.

Not sure how you define real world performance, or if you've been in any FI Z's, but even the least hp producing kits out there still are awesome daily drivers, with great real world performance. We have many many customers with single turbo, twin turbo, and supercharged cars - regardless of what their dyno's say, the cars are seriously quick, everyday drivers. Is that the direction I want to go with my own? No, despite having had all the parts in stock to do so from the get go. At the same time, going the road less travelled via an NA build does get really costly, no ifs ands or but's about it, and as such, the community as a whole, has sort of shifted towards aspiring to FI.

Good luck on your build

 

Z1, am i hearing you right "(Utec does not work on revups)", I was thinking of going with a Utec but if it does not work then it's back to the drawing board. What Engine managment system will work on the 06 Revup motor?

Matt

 

works but does not give control over the cam timing

 

Or just skip cam timing as your tuning option.

 

I have cams in my revup the jwt s7. It idles like stock. It pulls alot harder over 4k rpm to redline. It keeps pulling hard untill it hits the limiter. Im wondering since i also used jwt springs if i can raise the limiter. I may call jwt to find out for sure. I had it dynoed but the guys dyno wasnt working right. I did cams to make more hp under fi.

If your going to do cams you really need to pull the engine. One day in the future i may go with the bigger jwt cams. The only mod i really dont have is the intake plenum and a turbo. My A/F with the cams on the dyno started at 12.2 and went up too 13.8 at redline, this is with no tuning. So it seems to me the revup will compensate some for mods. I called another dyno shop but its a month long waiting list to get in.