Z1 Motorsports clutch and ultra light flywheel
02-20-2007, 07:49 AM
#22
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Originally Posted by 350Zenophile
Do all lightweight clutch/flywheels=cement mixer sounds below 2000 rpm or just certain designs?
This one has no chatter or driveline noise down low. There is a very small mount of throw-out bearing noise at low rpms in second but that is it
02-20-2007, 08:11 AM
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There were no air/fuel readings taken because I am still N/A with no ecu upgrades or timing advances. The only things that I am running is Injen CAI, Kinetix V+ plenum, test pipes, and the clutch and flywheel.
02-20-2007, 08:17 AM
#26
Originally Posted by MAC-G35
Just got my car back from Z1 after they installed their new clutch and ultra light weight flywheel package. The car drives great, the pedal feel is the same, if not lighter then the stock clutch. The stock flywheel is around 33 lbs, the ultra light weight is around 13 lbs.
The car showed a gain of 23 hp and 20 ft/lbs of torque at the wheels. I can smoke the tires in 2nd gear now and chirp them in 3rd. Throttle response feels alot quicker and the engaugment feels like its straight out of a race car.
I got the first one that they have recieved but they say that they will have more available in about 30 days. They said that they will have some info on the website in the next couple of days or you can call John at Z1 Motorsports.
Russell has said that the package will run around $750. I will be posting dyno charts in the next couple of days, but this is a great improvement and I strongly urge everyone to check this out.
Brian
The car showed a gain of 23 hp and 20 ft/lbs of torque at the wheels. I can smoke the tires in 2nd gear now and chirp them in 3rd. Throttle response feels alot quicker and the engaugment feels like its straight out of a race car.
I got the first one that they have recieved but they say that they will have more available in about 30 days. They said that they will have some info on the website in the next couple of days or you can call John at Z1 Motorsports.
Russell has said that the package will run around $750. I will be posting dyno charts in the next couple of days, but this is a great improvement and I strongly urge everyone to check this out.
Brian
The price is pretty cool also-----BTW, 400.00 on the install was real fair
Last edited by Eazzy; 02-20-2007 at 08:21 AM.
02-20-2007, 08:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Eazzzzzzy
Stock is around 28, but thats Nit Picing. GREAT !!!!! though. I would be curious about seeing more about it. I was expecting to hear more "chattering" complaints/whinning !!! and it was refreshing to just hear from someone that is happy with what he got.
The price is pretty cool also-----BTW, 400.00 on the install was real fair
The price is pretty cool also-----BTW, 400.00 on the install was real fair
I believe that the G35 flywheel is 33 lbs, I know that the 350Z is lighter but I'm not sure by how much. And it only took about a day and a half too.
Brian
02-20-2007, 09:10 AM
#28
adding a light flywheel doesn't change the numbers on a dyno, but instead accellerates being able to go from low to high rpms faster - which can only be measured when you set the dyno chart to read power vs time (what they use to compare gearing for instance), not power vs rpm or power vs speed.
you'd have to note what gear you're in and what final drive and tire/wheel size you run though, because changing any of those things will have an effect on how fast you can go from 2000rpms to redline in whatever gear of your choice
the misconception that people make is that it has the same effect as if you added hp. It does free up "power" but it's mostly accelleration power, not actual dyno power. Once any flywheel gets up to 7000 rpms, it generally isn't hard to keep it spinning at that speed. But it takes a lot of work to make it go from 2000-7000 rpms. There's seat of the pants gains with accelleration - much like changing final drives, but not so much actual power numbers - there's probably like a 1-2 hp gain but that's about it
you'd have to note what gear you're in and what final drive and tire/wheel size you run though, because changing any of those things will have an effect on how fast you can go from 2000rpms to redline in whatever gear of your choice
the misconception that people make is that it has the same effect as if you added hp. It does free up "power" but it's mostly accelleration power, not actual dyno power. Once any flywheel gets up to 7000 rpms, it generally isn't hard to keep it spinning at that speed. But it takes a lot of work to make it go from 2000-7000 rpms. There's seat of the pants gains with accelleration - much like changing final drives, but not so much actual power numbers - there's probably like a 1-2 hp gain but that's about it
Last edited by sentry65; 02-20-2007 at 09:38 AM.
02-20-2007, 09:31 AM
#29
Originally Posted by sentry65
adding a light flywheel didn't change the numbers on a dyno, but instead accellerates being able to go from low to high rpms faster - which can only be measured when you set the dyno chart to read power vs time (what they use to compare gearing for instance), not power vs rpm or power vs speed
you'd have to note what gear you're in and what final drive and tire/wheel size you run though, because changing any of those things will have an effect on how fast you can go from 2000rpms to redline in whatever gear of your choice
the misconception that people make is that it has the same effect as if you added hp. It does free up "power" but it's mostly accelleration power, not actual dyno power. Once any flywheel gets up to 7000 rpms, it generally isn't hard to keep it spinning at that speed. But it takes a lot of work to make it go from 2000-7000 rpms. There's seat of the pants gains with accelleration - much like changing final drives, but not so much actual power numbers - there's probably like a 1-2 hp gain but that's about it
you'd have to note what gear you're in and what final drive and tire/wheel size you run though, because changing any of those things will have an effect on how fast you can go from 2000rpms to redline in whatever gear of your choice
the misconception that people make is that it has the same effect as if you added hp. It does free up "power" but it's mostly accelleration power, not actual dyno power. Once any flywheel gets up to 7000 rpms, it generally isn't hard to keep it spinning at that speed. But it takes a lot of work to make it go from 2000-7000 rpms. There's seat of the pants gains with accelleration - much like changing final drives, but not so much actual power numbers - there's probably like a 1-2 hp gain but that's about it
02-20-2007, 09:37 AM
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Originally Posted by sentry65
adding a light flywheel doesn't change the numbers on a dyno, but instead accellerates being able to go from low to high rpms faster - which can only be measured when you set the dyno chart to read power vs time (what they use to compare gearing for instance), not power vs rpm or power vs speed.
you'd have to note what gear you're in and what final drive and tire/wheel size you run though, because changing any of those things will have an effect on how fast you can go from 2000rpms to redline in whatever gear of your choice
the misconception that people make is that it has the same effect as if you added hp. It does free up "power" but it's mostly accelleration power, not actual dyno power. Once any flywheel gets up to 7000 rpms, it generally isn't hard to keep it spinning at that speed. But it takes a lot of work to make it go from 2000-7000 rpms. There's seat of the pants gains with accelleration - much like changing final drives, because allowing the engine to rev faster does improve accelleration
you'd have to note what gear you're in and what final drive and tire/wheel size you run though, because changing any of those things will have an effect on how fast you can go from 2000rpms to redline in whatever gear of your choice
the misconception that people make is that it has the same effect as if you added hp. It does free up "power" but it's mostly accelleration power, not actual dyno power. Once any flywheel gets up to 7000 rpms, it generally isn't hard to keep it spinning at that speed. But it takes a lot of work to make it go from 2000-7000 rpms. There's seat of the pants gains with accelleration - much like changing final drives, because allowing the engine to rev faster does improve accelleration
All runs were done in 5th gear which is .9997 drive ration on 255/45/18 and the first dyno run and final dyno run were done within 36 hours of eachother with no other mods done. The only other changes were changing fluids in the tranny and diff with Redline fluids.
Brian
02-20-2007, 09:38 AM
#31
yeah something else is at work to generate actual gains of that magnitude
did the outside temperature/humidity change dramatically? Just how long ago was it since the last fluids change?
higher gears even have less of an effect with light flywheels than lower gears. In 5th gear you're already going 150mph at redline
did the outside temperature/humidity change dramatically? Just how long ago was it since the last fluids change?
higher gears even have less of an effect with light flywheels than lower gears. In 5th gear you're already going 150mph at redline
Last edited by sentry65; 02-20-2007 at 09:41 AM.
02-20-2007, 09:41 AM
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Originally Posted by 97supratt
+1 And that is why I wanted to see the a/f numbers because most likely they changed and that adversely affected the peak power and torque.
I still don't understand what you are saying would change the A/F??? Please tell me what you think would make them change. Here is the mot recent dyno run before the clutch and flywheel swap, it was done last year.
Brian
02-20-2007, 09:48 AM
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Originally Posted by sentry65
higher gears even have less of an effect with light flywheels than lower gears. In 5th gear you're already going 150mph at redline
All dyno runs should be done in the gear that is as close to a 1 to 1 ratio as possible. If the runs were to have been done in any of the lower gears than the gainswould have been HUGE.
Brian
02-20-2007, 10:27 AM
#34
I know that seems to be some sorta rule with the 1:1 ratio thing, but most shops seem more comfortable dynoing in 3rd or 4th gear, at least with FI because the run goes by quicker which is less stress on the engine. You can't simulate 150mph wind with a couple dyno fans and since the run takes longer, doing 30-40 fifteen second runs vs 30 nine second runs means you save 4 min which you could get more runs in or get to other things sooner while being safer on the engine. Besides, the difference in power between the gears isn't all that super huge, so why do the extra stress?
the fact that your before dyno last year was different means absolutely nothing. Things change. The dyno's calibration changes, the outside temp changes, humidity, your car has a multitude of things that gradually change over time. The ECU might have been on a lazy timing map when you previously dynoed where now maybe it's on an aggressive map -might depend partly on the quality of gas you got etc, who knows. There's so many factors
the fact that your before dyno last year was different means absolutely nothing. Things change. The dyno's calibration changes, the outside temp changes, humidity, your car has a multitude of things that gradually change over time. The ECU might have been on a lazy timing map when you previously dynoed where now maybe it's on an aggressive map -might depend partly on the quality of gas you got etc, who knows. There's so many factors
02-20-2007, 10:36 AM
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Originally Posted by sentry65
I know that seems to be some sorta rule with the 1:1 ratio thing, but most shops seem more comfortable dynoing in 3rd or 4th gear, at least with FI because the run goes by quicker which is less stress on the engine. You can't simulate 150mph wind with a couple dyno fans and since the run takes longer, doing 30-40 fifteen second runs vs 30 nine second runs means you save 4 min which you could get more runs in or get to other things sooner while being safer on the engine. Besides, the difference in power between the gears isn't all that super huge, so why do the extra stress?
the fact that your before dyno last year was different means absolutely nothing. Things change. The dyno's calibration changes, the outside temp changes, humidity, your car has a multitude of things that gradually change over time. The ECU might have been on a lazy timing map when you previously dynoed where now maybe it's on an aggressive map -might depend partly on the quality of gas you got etc, who knows. There's so many factors
the fact that your before dyno last year was different means absolutely nothing. Things change. The dyno's calibration changes, the outside temp changes, humidity, your car has a multitude of things that gradually change over time. The ECU might have been on a lazy timing map when you previously dynoed where now maybe it's on an aggressive map -might depend partly on the quality of gas you got etc, who knows. There's so many factors
And I was showing the chart from last year to show 97supratt my A/F ratio. The run last year was stock plus Injen CAI. Since then I have added test pipes and Kinetix V+ plenum. I'm swear, none of us are trying to pull a fast one on anyone. I'm just showing some REAL numbers that is quick, easy, and somewhat inexpensive mod can produce. Everything is accurate. If you have any quetsions you can even get in touch with Z1 Motorsports, just ask for Russell or Robert.
Brian
02-20-2007, 10:42 AM
#36
you'll have to explain to everyone why the dyno numbers in 3rd and 4th gear are "not correct" because the dyno doesn't care what gear you're in, the engine makes the same power either way and so tuning is going to be the same with an NA car or supercharger. All you're doing is changing how it's muliplied to the wheels which the dyno is aware of because it knows how fast you're going in mph and corrects against using the equation:
Work = Force x Distance
based on the amount of work it takes to rotate the dyno's rollers at different speeds
btw...the reason 1:1 gear ratio is "correct" is because almost every car has a 1:1 gear ratio. It's an attempt to keep things scientific with comparing different cars, but has no effect on someone's ability to actually tune your individual car
check out this link under the heading "different gears" 1/4 of the way down...
http://www.sportcompactcarweb.com/ed..._technobabble/
the fact that 5th gear might output slightly higher numbers doesn't have any effect on engine timing or A/F. That's just drivetrain loss plain and simple and has no effect on tuning
Dynoing a turbo car is a little different because you gotta wait for the turbo to spool, but most turbos for the Z spool up pretty quick anyway and so 4th and 5th gear would be more likely to be used instead of something like 3rd gear. But anyway, it all depends on the transmission design and to my knowledge on the Z and first hand experience, there isn't a very drastic difference in power read by the dyno in 3rd, 4th, or 5th gear on an NA or supercharged Z
here's more reading that somewhat explains a few things:
http://www.bristoldyno.com/info/whatis.htm
Work = Force x Distance
based on the amount of work it takes to rotate the dyno's rollers at different speeds
btw...the reason 1:1 gear ratio is "correct" is because almost every car has a 1:1 gear ratio. It's an attempt to keep things scientific with comparing different cars, but has no effect on someone's ability to actually tune your individual car
check out this link under the heading "different gears" 1/4 of the way down...
http://www.sportcompactcarweb.com/ed..._technobabble/
the fact that 5th gear might output slightly higher numbers doesn't have any effect on engine timing or A/F. That's just drivetrain loss plain and simple and has no effect on tuning
Dynoing a turbo car is a little different because you gotta wait for the turbo to spool, but most turbos for the Z spool up pretty quick anyway and so 4th and 5th gear would be more likely to be used instead of something like 3rd gear. But anyway, it all depends on the transmission design and to my knowledge on the Z and first hand experience, there isn't a very drastic difference in power read by the dyno in 3rd, 4th, or 5th gear on an NA or supercharged Z
here's more reading that somewhat explains a few things:
http://www.bristoldyno.com/info/whatis.htm
Last edited by sentry65; 02-20-2007 at 11:17 AM.
02-20-2007, 11:11 AM
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Originally Posted by sentry65
out this link under the heading "different gears" 1/4 of the way down...
http://www.sportcompactcarweb.com/ed..._technobabble/
the fact that 5th gear might output slightly higher numbers doesn't have any effect on engine timing or A/F. That's just drivetrain loss plain and simple
http://www.sportcompactcarweb.com/ed..._technobabble/
the fact that 5th gear might output slightly higher numbers doesn't have any effect on engine timing or A/F. That's just drivetrain loss plain and simple
Check out the link below to G35driver.com, it has comments from Robert@Z1Motor, Z1's service advisor, talking about the different dyno runs and the reason why they would not have fudged the numbers and told me different power numbers than the car actually made.
Brian
http://g35driver.com/forums/showthre...=140487&page=2
Last edited by MAC-G35; 02-20-2007 at 11:36 AM.
02-20-2007, 11:13 AM
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Originally Posted by 97supratt
Well the reason I asked for the a/f is because maybe you ran a bit leaner therefore adding some power. Usually a clutch and flywheel doesnt add 20+whp. If they did then every member would have a set. 
Turns out that after the conversion to true SAE HP the gain was 13 hp and 17 ft/lbs.
Brian
02-20-2007, 12:04 PM
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Originally Posted by MAC-G35
I still don't understand what you are saying would change the A/F??? Please tell me what you think would make them change. Here is the mot recent dyno run before the clutch and flywheel swap, it was done last year.
Brian
Brian