You just can't dyno the stock airbox thou...

Sure a CAI will show a gain on a dyno with stagnent air. The stock airbox only shows gains when underway.

btw... add the plenum to that list!!!

 

It should be said that the .03 lbs was at WOT at speed. This means the air box was still pressurized at WOT, very significant.

 

Both times I dynoed I was forcing air into the intakes ...stock and CAI . Talk to Doug . We dynoed together at Balanced Performance for my baseline.

 

Excellent points, you beat me to them. I guess the the only real thing left is emissions.

 

So maybe we should scratch the CAI. In any case, I've often heard that a design goal of most stock intakes is to reduce decibels. So there still might be opportunity to gain some air flow there since the act of reducing the volume tends to place a restriction on flow.

Have you seen 2003z's report on 350zfrenzy.com from Sema03? He has a brief report on a ram air intake from K&N that draws cold air in from the front grille. K&N claims 11rwhp. That seems a bit high to be credible, but it's probably worth keeping an eye on. They were probably comparing with a dirty stock air filter.

http://www.350zfrenzy.com/features/sema_2003/index.php

I did not include things like flywheels on my original list because those do not affect air flow in or air flow out. My reasoning is that anything that affects air flow could potentially produce destructive interference harmonics with the other air flow mods. I also did not include anything that requires modification to stock parts (port/polish, etc.).

The only other things I can think to add to the list are:

1.) High flow cats.

I originally left cats off since parts distributors may shy away from selling these because of emissions laws.

2.) New cams.

From what I understand, high performance cams tend to increase intake and exhaust valve overlap (when open). In this case, the intake tubing will be coupled with the exhaust tubing. So tuning for overlap may be important for max air flow (I imagine the Z already has some amount of overlap).

3.) New throttle body

My guess however is that this part will be very expensive to replace and might even be dangerous to mess with since it's servo controlled.

--
Jeff

 

Maybe someone should start sending some requests to some of the traditionally domestic aftermarket companies since they already make packages like this. Both Edelbrock and Holley make tuned packages for V8s that include intake manifolds, headers, cams, CNC ported heads, etc, and dyno tests them as a combo to make sure they make power. Plus, they seem to have much better prices than the Japanese tuners. Both these companies are already into the Honda world, just look at the Edelbrock turbo kit for Honda Civics - it is a really nice kit with everything you need.

 

"AEM CAIs are coated and the thermal characteristics of AL vs. plastic favor AL every time."

What thermal characteristics of aluminum would be so favorable? Using a heat conductor to carry cold air through a warm space doesn't seem like a helpful setup to me. I'd say that it's more likely they're using aluminum for asthetics than for its thermal properties.

Ever the sceptic, I'm suspicious that some people's tiny gain claims are just due to the dyno's margin of error. Nobody ever mentions how much these things vary across different tests of the same car. Will somebody enlighten me?

 

I believe he mentioned coated. With the coating (heat wrap, powdercoat, etc.) the heat conductivity isn't as great (trust me, it's still there, but not as bad)

I'm a firm believer in the CAI and have owned one for each of my cars (I'm young so I've only had 2 before this one ) I haven't gotten one for the Z yet, but I plan on it.

As was mentioned, MOST (I have yet to confirm about the Z's) airboxes are designed with high resonance dampening. Most people don't want to hear the car engine and so the manufacturers makes them quieter. An aftermarket CAI is made without those concerns in mind.

BUT what was left out was the fact that manufacturers use airboxes because (as mentioned) they're cheaper to produce and make, are easier to change a filter out of and the filter is cheaper and easier to find. Have an old guy buy a Z (I've seen 'em and no offense to the older crowd intended, just using an example) who's not a car buff and tell him he has to remove his front clip in order to change his filter. He'll go buy another car. Tell some girl who is not car saavy (thank God mine is.) and tell her the same thing, she'll buy another car.

Now say there's a few people who wouldn't mind that hassle of taking the front clip off to change the filter. Now tell those people that they have to go to an auto parts store instead of a Wal-Mart/K-mart/Meijer (or any other chain store that appears within every mile in a city.) to get the filter, and you've pretty much crossed the last line of defense for your intake. I'm lucky to live where I do as I live only 6 miles from a Murrays Discount Auto, 1 mile from and Autozone and 3 miles from a Pep Boys, but for those people who don't live in the city like I do (like say, for instance, somewhere in the UP of MI) it's a PAIN to find cone filters (that are decent quality such as K&N and the like)

OK, now after all of that, you have a SMALL percentage left over still interested in having a car with a CAI and all of the work that comes with maintaining it. NOW tell these people that the filter costs $35+. I believe you'll pretty much kill all interest in the product after that. You'll get the old guy remembering the old days of buying a Fram air filter for $10 for his last cars stock box. You'll get the people who won't want to take the time (or be involved with in possible mess that could occur) to re-oil the air filter and would find it more convenient to just go out and buy a cheapy sotck box replacement at the local store. The people left over after ALL of that has been explained, are you and I and everyone else on this forum and others like it. We're the exception to the rule of convenience in car manufacturer's designs.

Tell ANYONE other than those of us here (and a few other enthusiasts not afraid/discouraged to tear the car apart to mod and maintain it) and they'll think you're crazy.

The new 300M's were designed with the battery in such a spot that you have to practically tear apart your entire front end to get to it (have to take the wheel off and a few other things) I worked in a garage and I couldn't tell you the amount of people we had come in to pay us $50 to change their battery for them because it was in a ridiculous place. Chrysler has since revamped the design (next gen.) because of the people bitching about the hassle for changing the battery.

So don't ***/U/ME that the car manufacturer made the intake because it's "better". There's ALOT more reasoning that goes into a car's design than just "better performance".

 

Another thing, I dont believe that the heat conductivty of metal really matters that much once you get moving. The air inside the intake tube is moving very rapidly an probably doesnt spend more than a couple seconds inside the tube at high rpm WOT. I dont think there is enough time to heat the air significantly. Also, many of the aftermarket intakes also place their intakes in an area that would respond to a "ram air" type effect. My type R has a tube that goes down an under into the fender for the intake, but the AEM CAI is still good for 3-5 hp, not bad on a car that makes 108.5hp per liter already.

I do agree that restrictive intakes will certainly respond better to aftermarket intakes but I believe that almost every mass production car will show some type of gain off a CAI as most manufacturers are trying to keep noise level and cash flow as low as possible.

 

2,000!? ill take one whole setup right now kthx! LOL but seriously if any tuners are listening shoot me a email :P

 

Ok suppose there is a margin of error on the dyno, which does happen. Take a look at Injen's website and there are runs that differ by 5 or so hp on the same mods on the same car. That is unacceptable and deceiving to think you are getting those gains.

Taking three consistent runs on the dyno proves to be the most accurated with similar IAT, timing, gas, ambient temp, etc. This is similar to what AEM does.

I'm not bashing any company and that's not to say that taking 3 consistent runs means only making 3 runs either.

 

IMO, $1200-1500 for headers is extremely overpriced. Tho I can see the reasoning behind it due to the lack of competition and demand. I'd maximize profits too, if I was selling the first ones out.

Stillen, the king of overpricing, has ceramic coated 300ZX headers for about $500-600 (down from their inital price of $800).

Same goes for these $1200 exhaust systems. A good friend builds custom exhausts and dyno tests them, and the effort put into designing a good set isn't worth that kind of markup on the parts. We're talking about metal tubes here folks. Sure the cost of stainless & titanium is a higher than standard alloys, but at the volume they're producing, they're still overpriced.

I'm going to be among the few that holds off on paying the premium price to be the 'first on the block' to have it. I'll let economics take over and settle before I spend. This will also give me some time to read the reviews and see how the manufacturers hold up to their claims.

 

agree with EVERYTHING you say!!

 

$1200 for headers that truly make power? Yes, that’s what it's going to take. The headers that we designed are made up of multitudes of compound bends. They had to be made as such, in order to get a long enough tube in the very small confined area that we had to work within. These headers are going to have to be hand built, that means you have to take mandrel pre bent tubing, cut fit, and weld them together…this alone takes a tremendous amount of time believe me I know. Now I know somebody out there will, and has already come out with shorty unequal length headers. Have they made power? From what I’ve seen, they haven’t. We have made power and have put the dyno sheets up to prove it.

If we really want to debate cost, I’m losing money on every single set that I make. I’m doing this for the community, as my shop makes the living. From what it is taking to custom make these headers in my shop (which my shop is based on $75/hr - fabrication – it takes 20 hours to put ONE set of headers together), then shipping them to JetHot for coating, then shipping back to me for packaging… you’ll come up with a good estimate for what it would cost. If it were labor alone, you’d be looking at $1500/per set BEFORE materials and JetHot.

If you can figure out how to put it together less expensive, please do share. If you want to “maximize profits” look at the JIC pieces, which are less elaborate, hense less material and less development time – yet somehow near double my cost.

 

I didn't mean any offense to you or your work. You've clearly demonstrated your ability and hard work by designing these performance parts and proving their capabilities.

But...

1. You're losing money on every single set
2. It takes 20 hours to make each one by hand
3. You're just doing this for the community

That goes against every economic principle. You surely can't blame me or anyone else for having a hard time buying into this reasoning, especially when you're advertising these on every 350Z forum i've ever been to.

Less expensive method? Blueprint your design, patent it and send it off to a factory to have them mass produced. Of course this requires quite an initial investment, but with the performance statistics you've shown, its easy to show the great ROI to any potential investor. You'll be able to sell them at a much better price and make quite a profit off a larger volume of orders.

That might also help prevent cheaper copycat sets from hitting the market by larger companies that get their hands on them.

 

100% correct. There aren't many people (other than exhaust gurus and shop rats) that understand that there are certain ways to making headers. Sure, if all it required was slapping tubes together and routing them to one big collector pipe, then SURE it would be simple and price SHOULD be low. Unfortunately this is not the case. When designing headers, there are a multitude of things that need to be kept in check. I can go on and list them, but then it just leads to another long post. But give the guys some credit and some slack. I'd rather have a $1500 option vs. NO OPTION at all. I used to own a "compact sports" car that had literally NO aftermarket unless you payed through the teeth and went completely custom.

"Haven't got the bones to ante up? Leave the table."

simple as that.

 

Well said...

 

well said. this goes for the people who are bitching about the price for turbo kits as well .

 

Anyone ever hear of the product life cycle? The Z has one as well as headers for it. The product comes out, the "core market" prepurchases them and pays the exorbitant price that comes with low supply AND low demand. As supply increases and demand increases the price will lower until demand exceeds supply and the price may rise or flatten out. The price will decrease as demand flattens out and then the product will have an increase in price as the product nears the end of its cycle. Soon, demand will be very low as everyone who wants headers has them or the Z has been replaced by the 400ZX and only a couple companies still manuf. them for the 350Z. And inevitably, they will cease production entirely.

It is obvious who the core market is for these headers, obviously it is mainly the people who have close ties to the manufacturer/designer of them. Fine. Just understand that you will sell VERY little of these headers until the price lowers. If the price does not lower it will no longer be economically viable to produce them. Other companies will surely utilize a similar design and Crawford Z Header Division will not even be a memory.

Simple economics dictates that specialization is one of the keys in surviving and succeeding. So what do you want to do Doug? Have the design for the headers or produce them? Obviously you cannot and will not be able to compete with major manuf's of headers by trying to produce them. Sell your design to someone who can benefit from economies of scale and get to work on pioneering and designing something new and wonderful. You did a great job DESIGNING the headers. Want people to buy your design? Don't waste your time building them.

The simple fact remains that no matter how hard you market them, you will not sell enough headers to Z owners to make the project worth your while. Three copies sold to Vandy, Phoenix, and Evil will not justify your hard work to the DESIGN of the part. Leave the manufacturing to a manufacturer. You are a designer.

 

Another example of someone who doesn't understand...

Let me tell you... all 10 sets of the first run have ALREADY been locked down by people that have ZERO ties to the company.

Though since you're right... obviously you know something we don't.

How about this... you thing the whining to people who need to whine, and these those interested open to comment.

I'll tell you now... the price of headers will never drop. Companies who have developed headers for the NSX, S2000, 300ZX all have them at the price they entered the market... guess what, they arent' going to change. Why? It's a good product, people are WILLING to pay for a good product. Do you debate the price of a Big Mac at McDonalds? No... you just buy it because you want it. Are they going to lower the price? Nope. They'll have LESS EXPENSIVE items for those too cheap to cough up the $1.99 for their BIG sandwich... but the BEST pieces, never fluctuate.

Seriously... its obvious who understands concepts here, and its obvious who is whining that parts are too expensive. Guys you bought a $30k car... you thought parts were going to be cheap like a $8k used Mustang? Get a grip.