Stroked Out
Oh...by the way . You should send the motor off to BuiltZmotors . They can break it down and find out what went wrong with it !
JK!
JK!
Last edited by booger; Oct 13, 2007 at 06:28 PM.
Originally Posted by sentry65
IMO everyone hasn't found the ideal setup yet because there's always new things coming out all the time. The stroker kits have only really started hitting the streets like 8 months ago and only a relative handful of people are using them yet. We're still in the beginning phases.
IMO I don't think a cookie cutter "best" setup exists for all people and I think knowledge gained from one setup can be used for other setups
And some people have subjective preferences - they might like the sound of one setup vs another. Or they might like the cost of one vs another.
IMO I don't think a cookie cutter "best" setup exists for all people and I think knowledge gained from one setup can be used for other setups
And some people have subjective preferences - they might like the sound of one setup vs another. Or they might like the cost of one vs another.
i was just trying to offer a general consensus as to why most people all run the same set up. for the average joe. its just easier that way.
yeah that's usually true that doing a setup that hasn't been done before that you don't know absolutely what would happen can possibly end up being costly. But if the knowledge is sound and it seems possible, why not go for something that someone hasn't done before?
besides, what's the big deal? It's just a stroker kit we're talking here which has been proven to work already. It's not like the project would hinge on an unknown factor that would jeopardize the whole thing.
the other thing, which would cost you more money?
-the cost of upgrading to a stroker kit ($2000-3500)
or
-selling the vortech with T-trim (that few people will be interested in buying) at a loss and then buying a brand new TT kit and paying for the extra install labor involved with TT kits and having a 3.5 liter engine? Not to mention that you might end up needing to change out the exhaust, cats, etc to work better with a turbo kit
besides, what's the big deal? It's just a stroker kit we're talking here which has been proven to work already. It's not like the project would hinge on an unknown factor that would jeopardize the whole thing.
the other thing, which would cost you more money?
-the cost of upgrading to a stroker kit ($2000-3500)
or
-selling the vortech with T-trim (that few people will be interested in buying) at a loss and then buying a brand new TT kit and paying for the extra install labor involved with TT kits and having a 3.5 liter engine? Not to mention that you might end up needing to change out the exhaust, cats, etc to work better with a turbo kit
Just to clarify a few points in this thread:
I don't me to bore anybody with this information I am sure must of you know this already but there is always a risk involved with you modify a car. Especially when the modification gets preformed on an engine with an excess of 64,000 miles (which is the case here) this does not mean that if you do modify and engine with 64,000 miles on it that something will go wrong but I do think the chances of something going wrong are much higher than an engine with lower mileage.
Diesel brought us the car after he attempted his own SC install with a vortech T-Trim. We made some corrections, installed a fuel system, FCon VPro, and tuned the car. The car made over 450rwhp on 91/100 octane mix fuel.
No one knows how long a stock engine will last, In the last few years we have seen many engine blow, some lasted years, some months, and some have even blown on the dyno at very low power levels. (not us)
At his point no one really knows or can speculate what had gone wrong. In my opinion this car had every possible chance for it to survive and last for a long time. It had one of the best EMS available as far as consistency and reliability, return fuel system, very conservative timing, and plenty of fuel with a solid A/F ratio.
There is no one to blame for this unfortunate event, it is pretty simple in fact, when you have a stock engine, putting out a lot of power, and you TRACK the car on a ROAD COURSE, there is no telling how long the engine will last.
It is COMMON KNOWLEDGE that the VQ35 has weak rods from the factory, I am sure almost everyone in engine section of this forum knows this. When you take a high horsepower car, and drive it HARD and a race course, with sustained high RPM use, it is only a matter of time before the engine will let go.
This is not to mention other problems of racing a car on a road course such as possible fuel starvation, oil starvation, etc. When taking turns at high G's.
We are hoping that he was running on high octane fuel as was instructed if the car was to be raced on a road course.
EDIT: Inaddition this car was tuned with a Knock Amp hooked up for tuning, that car had 0 knock on the dyno and 0 knock on the road. There is no way this failure is tuning related.
Sam
GT Motorsports
I don't me to bore anybody with this information I am sure must of you know this already but there is always a risk involved with you modify a car. Especially when the modification gets preformed on an engine with an excess of 64,000 miles (which is the case here) this does not mean that if you do modify and engine with 64,000 miles on it that something will go wrong but I do think the chances of something going wrong are much higher than an engine with lower mileage.
Diesel brought us the car after he attempted his own SC install with a vortech T-Trim. We made some corrections, installed a fuel system, FCon VPro, and tuned the car. The car made over 450rwhp on 91/100 octane mix fuel.
No one knows how long a stock engine will last, In the last few years we have seen many engine blow, some lasted years, some months, and some have even blown on the dyno at very low power levels. (not us)
At his point no one really knows or can speculate what had gone wrong. In my opinion this car had every possible chance for it to survive and last for a long time. It had one of the best EMS available as far as consistency and reliability, return fuel system, very conservative timing, and plenty of fuel with a solid A/F ratio.
There is no one to blame for this unfortunate event, it is pretty simple in fact, when you have a stock engine, putting out a lot of power, and you TRACK the car on a ROAD COURSE, there is no telling how long the engine will last.
It is COMMON KNOWLEDGE that the VQ35 has weak rods from the factory, I am sure almost everyone in engine section of this forum knows this. When you take a high horsepower car, and drive it HARD and a race course, with sustained high RPM use, it is only a matter of time before the engine will let go.
This is not to mention other problems of racing a car on a road course such as possible fuel starvation, oil starvation, etc. When taking turns at high G's.
We are hoping that he was running on high octane fuel as was instructed if the car was to be raced on a road course.
EDIT: Inaddition this car was tuned with a Knock Amp hooked up for tuning, that car had 0 knock on the dyno and 0 knock on the road. There is no way this failure is tuning related.
Sam
GT Motorsports
Last edited by Sam@GTM; Oct 13, 2007 at 11:36 PM.
Knowing the owner was going to take the car to the track and do hard laps , dont you think a more conservitive tune would have been in order ? Instead of trying to get high HP out of it so you could post up a ....look at what MY SHOP did .....thread .
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From: under the hood
Originally Posted by Sam@GTM
Just to clarify a few points in this thread:
I don't me to bore anybody with this information I am sure must of you know this already but there is always a risk involved with you modify a car. Especially when the modification gets preformed on an engine with an excess of 64,000 miles (which is the case here) this does not mean that if you do modify and engine with 64,000 miles on it that something will go wrong but I do think the chances of something going wrong are much higher than an engine with lower mileage.
Diesel brought us the car after he attempted his own SC install with a vortech T-Trim. We made some corrections, installed a fuel system, FCon VPro, and tuned the car. The car made over 450rwhp on 91/100 octane mix fuel.
No one knows how long a stock engine will last, In the last few years we have seen many engine blow, some lasted years, some months, and some have even blown on the dyno at very low power levels. (not us)
At his point no one really knows or can speculate what had gone wrong. In my opinion this car had every possible chance for it to survive and last for a long time. It had one of the best EMS available as far as consistency and reliability, return fuel system, very conservative timing, and plenty of fuel with a solid A/F ratio.
There is no one to blame for this unfortunate event, it is pretty simple in fact, when you have a stock engine, putting out a lot of power, and you TRACK the car on a ROAD COURSE, there is no telling how long the engine will last.
It is COMMON KNOWLEDGE that the VQ35 has weak rods from the factory, I am sure almost everyone in engine section of this forum knows this. When you take a high horsepower car, and drive it HARD and a race course, with sustained high RPM use, it is only a matter of time before the engine will let go.
This is not to mention other problems of racing a car on a road course such as possible fuel starvation, oil starvation, etc. When taking turns at high G's.
We are hoping that he was running on high octane fuel as was instructed if the car was to be raced on a road course.
EDIT: Inaddition this car was tuned with a Knock Amp hooked up for tuning, that car had 0 knock on the dyno and 0 knock on the road. There is no way this failure is tuning related.
Sam
GT Motorsports
I don't me to bore anybody with this information I am sure must of you know this already but there is always a risk involved with you modify a car. Especially when the modification gets preformed on an engine with an excess of 64,000 miles (which is the case here) this does not mean that if you do modify and engine with 64,000 miles on it that something will go wrong but I do think the chances of something going wrong are much higher than an engine with lower mileage.
Diesel brought us the car after he attempted his own SC install with a vortech T-Trim. We made some corrections, installed a fuel system, FCon VPro, and tuned the car. The car made over 450rwhp on 91/100 octane mix fuel.
No one knows how long a stock engine will last, In the last few years we have seen many engine blow, some lasted years, some months, and some have even blown on the dyno at very low power levels. (not us)
At his point no one really knows or can speculate what had gone wrong. In my opinion this car had every possible chance for it to survive and last for a long time. It had one of the best EMS available as far as consistency and reliability, return fuel system, very conservative timing, and plenty of fuel with a solid A/F ratio.
There is no one to blame for this unfortunate event, it is pretty simple in fact, when you have a stock engine, putting out a lot of power, and you TRACK the car on a ROAD COURSE, there is no telling how long the engine will last.
It is COMMON KNOWLEDGE that the VQ35 has weak rods from the factory, I am sure almost everyone in engine section of this forum knows this. When you take a high horsepower car, and drive it HARD and a race course, with sustained high RPM use, it is only a matter of time before the engine will let go.
This is not to mention other problems of racing a car on a road course such as possible fuel starvation, oil starvation, etc. When taking turns at high G's.
We are hoping that he was running on high octane fuel as was instructed if the car was to be raced on a road course.
EDIT: Inaddition this car was tuned with a Knock Amp hooked up for tuning, that car had 0 knock on the dyno and 0 knock on the road. There is no way this failure is tuning related.
Sam
GT Motorsports
Originally Posted by booger
Oh ..Now I remember ...thanks to Sentry's 12 inch post refering back to an old thread . Bummer your motor blew...IT SUCKS ! I would shop around for the build.....Im sure most shops on this forum can do just as good as job as the other.....cost will be the biggest difference from shop to shop .
I would completely disagree with this last statement. The costs are different for a reason in engine builds - the difference is in the details.
Originally Posted by Z1 Performance
I would completely disagree with this last statement. The costs are different for a reason in engine builds - the difference is in the details.
would you like to name a shop or shops that are on this site , that dont pay attention to 'DETAILS" ?
Not true at all - like anything else in this world, there are differences among machinists and builders in the level of details and the level of build they will, or even can do. As a prospective customer, it is your job (or shops job if they are subbing the work out), to get all the particulars from the one you are entrusting the build to.
How do you know most shops build motors "the right way" - what does that even mean? For example (and this is a small one), one could use an off the shelf bearing as part of every build, or one can spec out the bearings on a per bearing basis, to the point where you can have multiple specs on each main bearing, to achieve the desired tolerance? Both ways certainly work, one way is obviously better (and much more labor intensive and as such, much more costly and more time consuming). There is a difference between and engine assembler and an engine builder. Balancing and blueprinting a motor is not something every engine builder does, and there are differences to the degree each machinist might go. Some people wouldn't know, nor care, either way, and both ways certainly can run for a long time, albeit with potentially different levels of success (and price points). My point here is not to be combative, but rather to point out that there are varying degrees of "the right way", and some do a better job than others.
It's just like when you are soliciting builders for anything - an extension on your house for example. You have a general idea of what you want, and you solicit 5 different bids from 5 known companies. Take a sampling of that alone and see how wide the variances are in practices, in preventative steps taken, and in cost, and in delivery time estimates to completion. It is no different when building an engine.
Asking "which is the best stroker", IMHO, is the wrong question. none, and I mean none, are going to be "perfect" out of the box. Finding the best engine builder is the right search to undertake,and that in and of itself can be time consuming, but ultimately far more rewarding. With the details in front of them, that person, or group, can guide you as to which they can make work best for your particular application, need, and budget.
How do you know most shops build motors "the right way" - what does that even mean? For example (and this is a small one), one could use an off the shelf bearing as part of every build, or one can spec out the bearings on a per bearing basis, to the point where you can have multiple specs on each main bearing, to achieve the desired tolerance? Both ways certainly work, one way is obviously better (and much more labor intensive and as such, much more costly and more time consuming). There is a difference between and engine assembler and an engine builder. Balancing and blueprinting a motor is not something every engine builder does, and there are differences to the degree each machinist might go. Some people wouldn't know, nor care, either way, and both ways certainly can run for a long time, albeit with potentially different levels of success (and price points). My point here is not to be combative, but rather to point out that there are varying degrees of "the right way", and some do a better job than others.
It's just like when you are soliciting builders for anything - an extension on your house for example. You have a general idea of what you want, and you solicit 5 different bids from 5 known companies. Take a sampling of that alone and see how wide the variances are in practices, in preventative steps taken, and in cost, and in delivery time estimates to completion. It is no different when building an engine.
Asking "which is the best stroker", IMHO, is the wrong question. none, and I mean none, are going to be "perfect" out of the box. Finding the best engine builder is the right search to undertake,and that in and of itself can be time consuming, but ultimately far more rewarding. With the details in front of them, that person, or group, can guide you as to which they can make work best for your particular application, need, and budget.
Last edited by Z1 Performance; Oct 14, 2007 at 10:02 AM.
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From: under the hood
Originally Posted by Z1 Performance
I would completely disagree with this last statement. The costs are different for a reason in engine builds - the difference is in the details.
Originally Posted by go-fast
+1.... but i think the services provided by vendors on this board are similiar,i have yet to see a detailed blueprint offered from any shop here and groups them all into the same level of build.if we were talking cylinder heads i would say "stage 1".
Last edited by booger; Oct 14, 2007 at 10:20 AM.
Originally Posted by Z1 Performance
Not true at all - like anything else in this world, there are differences among machinists and builders in the level of details and the level of build they will, or even can do. As a prospective customer, it is your job (or shops job if they are subbing the work out), to get all the particulars from the one you are entrusting the build to.
How do you know most shops build motors "the right way" - what does that even mean? For example (and this is a small one), one could use an off the shelf bearing as part of every build, or one can spec out the bearings on a per bearing basis, to the point where you can have multiple specs on each main bearing, to achieve the desired tolerance? Both ways certainly work, one way is obviously better (and much more labor intensive and as such, much more costly and more time consuming). There is a difference between and engine assembler and an engine builder. Balancing and blueprinting a motor is not something every engine builder does, and there are differences to the degree each machinist might go. Some people wouldn't know, nor care, either way, and both ways certainly can run for a long time, albeit with potentially different levels of success (and price points). My point here is not to be combative, but rather to point out that there are varying degrees of "the right way", and some do a better job than others.
It's just like when you are soliciting builders for anything - an extension on your house for example. You have a general idea of what you want, and you solicit 5 different bids from 5 known companies. Take a sampling of that alone and see how wide the variances are in practices, in preventative steps taken, and in cost, and in delivery time estimates to completion. It is no different when building an engine.
Asking "which is the best stroker", IMHO, is the wrong question. none, and I mean none, are going to be "perfect" out of the box. Finding the best engine builder is the right search to undertake,and that in and of itself can be time consuming, but ultimately far more rewarding. With the details in front of them, that person, or group, can guide you as to which they can make work best for your particular application, need, and budget.
How do you know most shops build motors "the right way" - what does that even mean? For example (and this is a small one), one could use an off the shelf bearing as part of every build, or one can spec out the bearings on a per bearing basis, to the point where you can have multiple specs on each main bearing, to achieve the desired tolerance? Both ways certainly work, one way is obviously better (and much more labor intensive and as such, much more costly and more time consuming). There is a difference between and engine assembler and an engine builder. Balancing and blueprinting a motor is not something every engine builder does, and there are differences to the degree each machinist might go. Some people wouldn't know, nor care, either way, and both ways certainly can run for a long time, albeit with potentially different levels of success (and price points). My point here is not to be combative, but rather to point out that there are varying degrees of "the right way", and some do a better job than others.
It's just like when you are soliciting builders for anything - an extension on your house for example. You have a general idea of what you want, and you solicit 5 different bids from 5 known companies. Take a sampling of that alone and see how wide the variances are in practices, in preventative steps taken, and in cost, and in delivery time estimates to completion. It is no different when building an engine.
Asking "which is the best stroker", IMHO, is the wrong question. none, and I mean none, are going to be "perfect" out of the box. Finding the best engine builder is the right search to undertake,and that in and of itself can be time consuming, but ultimately far more rewarding. With the details in front of them, that person, or group, can guide you as to which they can make work best for your particular application, need, and budget.
Originally Posted by booger
Knowing the owner was going to take the car to the track and do hard laps , dont you think a more conservitive tune would have been in order ? Instead of trying to get high HP out of it so you could post up a ....look at what MY SHOP did .....thread .
it might just be a matter of which one he chose to use on the track and what fuel octane he used and whatever other mods he had for heat management and if he was monitoring the heat temps while he was driving
We know Sam does all Fcon tunes with a knock amp, but I wonder if a knock amp was permanently installed. Like Sam said, there's all sorts of things that can happen on the track (fuel and oil starvation, extra heat, etc) that can lead to the engine being in a condition that was beyond what you can create on a dyno or on the street.
Having a knock amp permanently installed I'd think would be a key thing to the Fcon instantly pulling timing the instant any unforseen detonation might happen. If the engine is running way hotter than it was on the dyno/street, that might be enough to eventually cause detonation. The Fcon can do EGT compensation where if the EGT's get beyond a certain point, extra fuel is dumped into the engine to aid cooling. So those are two safety features that detect extreme conditions that we don't know if deisel tracked the car with or not.
I don't think it has anything to do with Sam's tune if the driver ended up pushing the car to a point beyond what can be done on the dyno or street and the car had over 64k miles on it. As a driver, you need to give your car that extra safety measure and run high octane fuel on your conservative map unless you have a professional tuner in the car with you making adjustments while you do laps around the track
on a side note, man I'm glad I have water/meth injection after driving my car this summer. My car took the heat rather well actually while the air intake temps just driving normally would get up to 68 C (155 F) degrees at the end of the day when it was 108 F degrees outside and the car sat in 112 degree heat all day in the sun. If I didn't have w/m injection, I'm guessing temps would easily have hit 75 C (167 F) or more when I'd go WOT on the street. At least with w/m injection, air intake temps would drop down to 48-50 C (120 F) depending on how long I went WOT
Last edited by sentry65; Oct 14, 2007 at 01:46 PM.
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From: under the hood
Originally Posted by sentry65
he had two tunes and one of them looked pretty conservative to me considering he was running 13 psi
it might just be a matter of which one he chose to use on the track and what fuel octane he used and whatever other mods he had for heat management and if he was monitoring the heat temps while he was driving
We know Sam does all Fcon tunes with a knock amp, but I wonder if a knock amp was permanently installed. Like Sam said, there's all sorts of things that can happen on the track (fuel and oil starvation, extra heat, etc) that can lead to the engine being in a condition that was beyond what you can create on a dyno or on the street.
Having a knock amp permanently installed I'd think would be a key thing to the Fcon instantly pulling timing the instant any unforseen detonation might happen. If the engine is running way hotter than it was on the dyno/street, that might be enough to eventually cause detonation. The Fcon can do EGT compensation where if the EGT's get beyond a certain point, extra fuel is dumped into the engine to aid cooling. So those are two safety features that detect extreme conditions that we don't know if deisel tracked the car with or not.
I don't think it has anything to do with Sam's tune if the driver ended up pushing the car to a point beyond what can be done on the dyno or street and the car had over 64k miles on it. As a driver, you need to give your car that extra safety measure and run high octane fuel on your conservative map unless you have a professional tuner in the car with you making adjustments while you do laps around the track
on a side note, man I'm glad I have water/meth injection after driving my car this summer. My car took the heat rather well actually while the air intake temps just driving normally would get up to 68 C (155 F) degrees at the end of the day when it was 108 F degrees outside and the car sat in 112 degree heat all day in the sun. If I didn't have w/m injection, I'm guessing temps would easily have hit 75 C (167 F) or more when I'd go WOT on the street. At least with w/m injection, air intake temps would drop down to 48-50 C (120 F) depending on how long I went WOT
it might just be a matter of which one he chose to use on the track and what fuel octane he used and whatever other mods he had for heat management and if he was monitoring the heat temps while he was driving
We know Sam does all Fcon tunes with a knock amp, but I wonder if a knock amp was permanently installed. Like Sam said, there's all sorts of things that can happen on the track (fuel and oil starvation, extra heat, etc) that can lead to the engine being in a condition that was beyond what you can create on a dyno or on the street.
Having a knock amp permanently installed I'd think would be a key thing to the Fcon instantly pulling timing the instant any unforseen detonation might happen. If the engine is running way hotter than it was on the dyno/street, that might be enough to eventually cause detonation. The Fcon can do EGT compensation where if the EGT's get beyond a certain point, extra fuel is dumped into the engine to aid cooling. So those are two safety features that detect extreme conditions that we don't know if deisel tracked the car with or not.
I don't think it has anything to do with Sam's tune if the driver ended up pushing the car to a point beyond what can be done on the dyno or street and the car had over 64k miles on it. As a driver, you need to give your car that extra safety measure and run high octane fuel on your conservative map unless you have a professional tuner in the car with you making adjustments while you do laps around the track
on a side note, man I'm glad I have water/meth injection after driving my car this summer. My car took the heat rather well actually while the air intake temps just driving normally would get up to 68 C (155 F) degrees at the end of the day when it was 108 F degrees outside and the car sat in 112 degree heat all day in the sun. If I didn't have w/m injection, I'm guessing temps would easily have hit 75 C (167 F) or more when I'd go WOT on the street. At least with w/m injection, air intake temps would drop down to 48-50 C (120 F) depending on how long I went WOT
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From: santa clarita
1/4 with 91 rest 110 octane. Likke i said car ran fine before i take back to sam and a week later car goes boom. I dont have knock sensor or compensation meter for the f con. I did a simple set up hoping it would last but didnt. I will do something crazy thats for sure if any shop would like to help with build and tune send me message send me some prices and why i would choose you to build a circuit monster with seam welded chassis and all the goodies to win.
Originally Posted by deisel
By the way gtm only tuned my car and did fuel everything u see on pics done by me except cold air tube w/filter. now i i got a blown engine and need to figure out who is at fault. I only had car trouble after 2nd time in for the street tune by gtm. I go to track and engine goes 10min into my 2nd run at willow springs. who to blame? whats to look for? why no problem after 1st tune?
~Robert
I wouldnt think 60,000 miles is high miles with todays engines . Its well broken in....yes . He had good , high octane gas in it , The tuner knew the owner was tracking the car and put a retune on it . To what power level ? Was it more than before ? Why was it retuned ? Knowing the car is tracked , the tuner must know that higher heat and stress would be put on the motor than he could reproduce on the dyno or the street .
Originally Posted by go-fast
are you saying that 13psi on a stock/high mileage block is conservative?
64k miles would probably have ran just fine on the street. But at 13 psi and then tracking it without all the extra safety stuff that he could have ran etc, it's sad but is anyone really shocked it blew?
it was a risk and it just didn't turn out so well this time. Because of it, we have a better idea of what the stock block will and won't do
Last edited by sentry65; Oct 14, 2007 at 04:47 PM.
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From: santa clarita
yes that was me at willow in early laps key word (early laps) The car seemed faster but got no details I was told to bring car back for street tune and when i got there they said it was completed. next time i will build this thing better and faster no doubt about it. laosifu what car where you out here. 60,000 miles is not even its first serious tune up. engines have been built for at least 85 yrs motors are not old at 60k now a days.