NA Power or TT Power best option????
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From: portland
NA is the way to go unless you spend all your time at the 1/4 mile track. The car will sound better, it will last longer and it will be more fun to drive. Your ultimate hp number may be lower but given all the above, it really doesn't matter.
.
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From: OC
Originally posted by mcduck
I was referring to mechanical knowledge, not driving skill. As for handling the HP... I think if I managed to drive a 550rwhp '68 Dodge Charger R/T, handling the much more forgiving 350Z, even with as much as 400rwhp, will be a breeze...
Probably not my best analogy on this forum, but the bottom line is NO2 offers gain without any real effort. SC and turbo offer big gains, but some effort must be made to get them.
Not only do I think it does... I know it does. It's a simple matter of physics. With a SC or TT, your power comes in a continuous curve. It may be a quickly changing curve when compared to stock, but it is still a curve. With NO2, it's a disjointed curve. Even with progressive, there are sudden "jolts" of increased power... they are not as extreme, but you have several instead of just one. Basically, the power does something like this...
..........................................________
..........................._______|
.............. ______|
_______|
everywhere there is a verticle line represents one of the phases of the progressive NO2 increase. These sudden changes have more impact on the longevity of the system than the smoother curves offered by TT or SC. I don't think anyone would argue that any of these routes (TT, SC, or NO2) is going to shorten the life of your motor. All I'm saying, everything else equal, an FI system that adds 150HP will be less hard on a motor than an NO2 shot that adds 150HP.
Finally...
Um... you can yell all you want, but you're still wrong. FI, in the context I used it, is Forced Induction... as in Supercharger or Turbocharger. Nitrous Oxide is not a forced induction by any stretch of the imagination. It is a fuel additive (or substitute) that creates a more volatile air/fuel mixture resulting in more powerful combustion.
That is all from the peanut gallery...
I was referring to mechanical knowledge, not driving skill. As for handling the HP... I think if I managed to drive a 550rwhp '68 Dodge Charger R/T, handling the much more forgiving 350Z, even with as much as 400rwhp, will be a breeze...
Probably not my best analogy on this forum, but the bottom line is NO2 offers gain without any real effort. SC and turbo offer big gains, but some effort must be made to get them.
Not only do I think it does... I know it does. It's a simple matter of physics. With a SC or TT, your power comes in a continuous curve. It may be a quickly changing curve when compared to stock, but it is still a curve. With NO2, it's a disjointed curve. Even with progressive, there are sudden "jolts" of increased power... they are not as extreme, but you have several instead of just one. Basically, the power does something like this...
..........................................________
..........................._______|
.............. ______|
_______|
everywhere there is a verticle line represents one of the phases of the progressive NO2 increase. These sudden changes have more impact on the longevity of the system than the smoother curves offered by TT or SC. I don't think anyone would argue that any of these routes (TT, SC, or NO2) is going to shorten the life of your motor. All I'm saying, everything else equal, an FI system that adds 150HP will be less hard on a motor than an NO2 shot that adds 150HP.
Finally...
Um... you can yell all you want, but you're still wrong. FI, in the context I used it, is Forced Induction... as in Supercharger or Turbocharger. Nitrous Oxide is not a forced induction by any stretch of the imagination. It is a fuel additive (or substitute) that creates a more volatile air/fuel mixture resulting in more powerful combustion.
That is all from the peanut gallery...
and what do we learn before physics... CHEMISTRY...
first off lets break it down, and its N20 not no2 that means 2 count them 2 parts nitrogen and 1 part oxygen, although I think it is 66% oxygen by weight...
what does it do??? it FORCES more Oxygen into the chamber to allow you to add more FUEL so you can get more power out of your combustion... SC or TT do the same thing but in a different way... they compress air through each of thier methods and FORCE more air into the chamber so you can add more fuel so you get more from your combustion... all 3 are forms of FI that is forced induction which is FORCING more air and fuel in your cylinder...
now I guess it would take some mechanical knowledge to know this but since apparently I have none (since I use nitrous) I will go on...
now that big bad charger that you drove 550rwhp wow and I guess it had a lot of mean torque down low right??? I bet you it made quite a bit from nice and low in the rpm band all the way up and you are gonna tell me that that wont wear on an engine having that much power NA(or whatever you had) all at once at the bottom
bottom line is the bacic purpose of all these forms of FI, is to raise the compression of your cylinder.. in true basics, and most guys who go NA will try to raise their compression as well with pistons and other parts... if you want a reliable car leave it alone dont touch a damn thing... but since you want a faster car you go spend your 5-6k on your turbo or SC and I will spend my nice little 500 bucks on my nitrous kit and maybe 2k in bolt ons to have fun... and I will burn you all the way through that 1/4 mile pass street or strip
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From: OC
Originally posted by zland
Ok, breathe deep.....do we need some anger management workshops? Oh, BTW, my daddy can beat up your daddy!
Ok, breathe deep.....do we need some anger management workshops? Oh, BTW, my daddy can beat up your daddy!
and I have no doubt my daddy vs. your daddy would be a good fight hahaha
-non
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From: Charlotte, NC
now I guess it would take some mechanical knowledge to know this but since apparently I have none (since I use nitrous) I will go on...
guess that means I probably have a pretty good background on it all around.
My typos aside...
I am not pulling stuff out of my butt... Nitrous simply is not forced induction. It is creates a different fuel mixture. Different fuels (as they mix with air) do not make forced induction.
Forced induction, as it is typically discussed in automotive circles, is a mechanical system that creates a denser package of air to... DUMDUMDUM... mix with the fuel you are using!
Nitrous oxide is fuel... pure and simple.
Regardless... have fun with your nitrous... I don't see it in my future.
Last edited by mcduck; Sep 14, 2003 at 08:53 AM.
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From: Santa Cruz, CA
Originally posted by mcduck
I am not pulling stuff out of my butt... Nitrous simply is not forced induction. It is creates a different fuel mixture. Different fuels (as they mix with air) do not make forced induction.
Forced induction, as it is typically discussed in automotive circles, is a mechanical system that creates a denser package of air to... DUMDUMDUM... mix with the fuel you are using!
Nitrous oxide is fuel... pure and simple.
I am not pulling stuff out of my butt... Nitrous simply is not forced induction. It is creates a different fuel mixture. Different fuels (as they mix with air) do not make forced induction.
Forced induction, as it is typically discussed in automotive circles, is a mechanical system that creates a denser package of air to... DUMDUMDUM... mix with the fuel you are using!
Nitrous oxide is fuel... pure and simple.
If Nitrous is a "fuel mixture" then where is the fuel? The Nitrogen is inert, and oxygen is an oxidant, not a fuel. N2O does not add a different fuel to the mixture at all, but when heated in the combustion chamber, the oxygen separates from the nitrogen and therefore can be used to burn more gasoline. So the nitrous kit is simply a way of adding additional "air" (and gasoline, in order to prevent a lean mixture) to the cylinders. Basically the same as forced induction as you defined it above (maybe "mechanical" can be debated, although there are definitely mechanical parts in a nitrous system).
Cheating or not, it sure is an elegant way of increasing power.
Now what about this for an "advanced" nitrous system:
Install a small compressor to the engine (like an A/C copressor) and have it fill a pressure vessel all the time. Then use a variable valve to continously change the output of the vessel when you wanted extra power. The goal would be to give a smooth increase in torque when you need it, with only a slight draw in power when you don't. Also, the cost would be low. I guess it would be similar to a supercharger, but without boosting directly to the motor. Instead it would boost to the pressure vessel which would store up the charge for when it was needed (like a capacitor in an electrical system). Eh, probably would be a pain to install and have a ton of other technical problems.
Oooops, I just realized that I am wayyyyy off topic. So to remedy that, I say N/A power is the best for moderate gains, but F/I is probably going the be better for very high HP (say >350 RWHP).
-D'oh!
Last edited by D'oh; Sep 14, 2003 at 10:19 PM.
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From: OC
Originally posted by D'oh
OK, from what I remember of chemistry, the above is not really correct...
If Nitrous is a "fuel mixture" then where is the fuel? The Nitrogen is inert, and oxygen is an oxidant, not a fuel. N2O does not add a different fuel to the mixture at all, but when heated in the combustion chamber, the oxygen separates from the nitrogen and therefore can be used to burn more gasoline. So the nitrous kit is simply a way of adding additional "air" (and gasoline, in order to prevent a lean mixture) to the cylinders. Basically the same as forced induction as you defined it above (maybe "mechanical" can be debated, although there are definitely mechanical parts in a nitrous system).
-D'oh!
OK, from what I remember of chemistry, the above is not really correct...
If Nitrous is a "fuel mixture" then where is the fuel? The Nitrogen is inert, and oxygen is an oxidant, not a fuel. N2O does not add a different fuel to the mixture at all, but when heated in the combustion chamber, the oxygen separates from the nitrogen and therefore can be used to burn more gasoline. So the nitrous kit is simply a way of adding additional "air" (and gasoline, in order to prevent a lean mixture) to the cylinders. Basically the same as forced induction as you defined it above (maybe "mechanical" can be debated, although there are definitely mechanical parts in a nitrous system).
-D'oh!
ok mic you say that FI increases the density of the air in the cylinder well this noble person gets it as well... thats what nitrous does it creates a denser pocket of OXYGEN in the cylinder, its just differences in compression...
"four years of mechanical engineering including classes in" BLAH BLAH BLAH" honestly mic, no offense to you at all, because you seem like you are pretty knowledgeable(in some things) , but someone can go through all the school they want and just not get certain concepts... I've met a lot of stupid college graduates hehehe...
and as for mechanically I would have to go with D'OH on that one too you can debate that till we are all blue in the face but a nitrous system does have mechanics too it, and it does acccomplish the same goals as any other form of FI, by adding more air to your cylinder...
-non
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From: Charlotte, NC
but someone can go through all the school they want and just not get certain concepts...
I still don't agree that N20 is FI anymore than 100 octane gas is... afterall, it burns more oxygen than 93 or 87-octane. Being more refined, it burns more efficiently and effectively than lesser gas, but it is not FI. The argument that N20 is FI because it allows oxygen to burn more quickly is no different than running higher octane or gas additives. N20 does the same thing, just to a much more effective degree.
Does it create more effective combustion (thereby using more oxygen)? Yes. Is it FI? No.
As it is, I guess we can go on debating this ad nausem, but it is not serving the purpose I meant for this thread. I will speak no more of this! Call N2O what you want... regardless of it's nature, it is another way to get power other than building the motor.
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Whatever you want to call it, all I want is dependable hp gains without hurting my engine. Low price would be nice.
I have to admit, somehow NOS does seem like cheating. Maybe I should ride in a nos car before making judgement.
I have to admit, somehow NOS does seem like cheating. Maybe I should ride in a nos car before making judgement.
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From: Santa Cruz, CA
To me, the biggest downside to N2O is that it is limited by the amount you can carry on board. The second biggest problem is the sudden burst of torque, rather than a smooth increase.
I'm not a big drag racer (where the benefits of nitrous are huge and the negatives are small), but prefer tracking and AutoX. In those situations the limitations of the nitrous are more evident.
I think if you want to road race the car, then N/A engine mods are a good choice, since they are reliable, provide a very smooth change in torque, and add negligible weight.
If you want F/I for road racing, then I like the SC (especially the centrifugal type) since the torque increase is still very smooth. The complexity and weight are increased over N/A mods, but the power gains are better. Also, since there isn't any lag with the SC, it can be better for situations where you are on and off the throttle in quick succession (like AutoX or tight road course).
I think turbo's have the ability to make the most power, but I wouldn't want one for road racing. To me, the lag would be annoying (especially on a tight course) and the rapid increase in torque when transitioning from a non-boost to a full-boost situation would be unsettling when exiting corners and such.
Obviously, your preference would depend greatly on how you plan to use your car and what you are trying to accomplish. There really isn't a "best" way to do things, since it will all depend on personal preference.
-D'oh!
I'm not a big drag racer (where the benefits of nitrous are huge and the negatives are small), but prefer tracking and AutoX. In those situations the limitations of the nitrous are more evident.
I think if you want to road race the car, then N/A engine mods are a good choice, since they are reliable, provide a very smooth change in torque, and add negligible weight.
If you want F/I for road racing, then I like the SC (especially the centrifugal type) since the torque increase is still very smooth. The complexity and weight are increased over N/A mods, but the power gains are better. Also, since there isn't any lag with the SC, it can be better for situations where you are on and off the throttle in quick succession (like AutoX or tight road course).
I think turbo's have the ability to make the most power, but I wouldn't want one for road racing. To me, the lag would be annoying (especially on a tight course) and the rapid increase in torque when transitioning from a non-boost to a full-boost situation would be unsettling when exiting corners and such.
Obviously, your preference would depend greatly on how you plan to use your car and what you are trying to accomplish. There really isn't a "best" way to do things, since it will all depend on personal preference.
-D'oh!
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From: Charlotte, NC
More good points above...
This was actually what I was talking about several posts back. Any performance changes will shorten the life of a motor, but because there is a sudden change with N20, it will shorten motor life more than a similar power gain with a system that creates a smoothly flowing power increase.
At this point, I'm looking at some serious NA mods now that will still leave the door open for SC or TT sometime next year. Ultimately, I believe 400hp at the wheels will be enough for me, and I doubt I'll get there on NA mods alone.
The second biggest problem is the sudden burst of torque, rather than a smooth increase.
At this point, I'm looking at some serious NA mods now that will still leave the door open for SC or TT sometime next year. Ultimately, I believe 400hp at the wheels will be enough for me, and I doubt I'll get there on NA mods alone.
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From: OC
Originally posted by D'oh
To me, the biggest downside to N2O is that it is limited by the amount you can carry on board. The second biggest problem is the sudden burst of torque, rather than a smooth increase.
I'm not a big drag racer (where the benefits of nitrous are huge and the negatives are small), but prefer tracking and AutoX. In those situations the limitations of the nitrous are more evident.
I think if you want to road race the car, then N/A engine mods are a good choice, since they are reliable, provide a very smooth change in torque, and add negligible weight.
If you want F/I for road racing, then I like the SC (especially the centrifugal type) since the torque increase is still very smooth. The complexity and weight are increased over N/A mods, but the power gains are better. Also, since there isn't any lag with the SC, it can be better for situations where you are on and off the throttle in quick succession (like AutoX or tight road course).
I think turbo's have the ability to make the most power, but I wouldn't want one for road racing. To me, the lag would be annoying (especially on a tight course) and the rapid increase in torque when transitioning from a non-boost to a full-boost situation would be unsettling when exiting corners and such.
Obviously, your preference would depend greatly on how you plan to use your car and what you are trying to accomplish. There really isn't a "best" way to do things, since it will all depend on personal preference.
-D'oh!
To me, the biggest downside to N2O is that it is limited by the amount you can carry on board. The second biggest problem is the sudden burst of torque, rather than a smooth increase.
I'm not a big drag racer (where the benefits of nitrous are huge and the negatives are small), but prefer tracking and AutoX. In those situations the limitations of the nitrous are more evident.
I think if you want to road race the car, then N/A engine mods are a good choice, since they are reliable, provide a very smooth change in torque, and add negligible weight.
If you want F/I for road racing, then I like the SC (especially the centrifugal type) since the torque increase is still very smooth. The complexity and weight are increased over N/A mods, but the power gains are better. Also, since there isn't any lag with the SC, it can be better for situations where you are on and off the throttle in quick succession (like AutoX or tight road course).
I think turbo's have the ability to make the most power, but I wouldn't want one for road racing. To me, the lag would be annoying (especially on a tight course) and the rapid increase in torque when transitioning from a non-boost to a full-boost situation would be unsettling when exiting corners and such.
Obviously, your preference would depend greatly on how you plan to use your car and what you are trying to accomplish. There really isn't a "best" way to do things, since it will all depend on personal preference.
-D'oh!
N20 is great for the drags but I dont think I would ever run it on a road course like autocrossing... however I am currently entered in the silver state classic which is 90 miles of open road which it could be used on the long staights
Ultimately I think your right on for autocross with the SC although with good tuning on your turbo setup and the right size matching you will have very little to no turbo lag so it would also be a good thing for autocross... but SC I think would require less fine tuning to get there
I tell you what though if I were to build a serious car for mountain racing I think I would definitely build a turbo car
~~~~to mic~~~~
wasnt calling you stupid at all like I said you seem pretty knowledgeable I guess we will just have to agree to disagree
~~~to Zland~~~
dude if you want PM me and you can ride in mine once I plug my sytem back in... it might be in today or tomorrow but I wont have time till I get back from silver state... I should be back monday of next week
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From: In my car, Arkansas
Well, duck, it is not like higher octane gas though. You are talking the structure and quality of the gas, which is alot different than N2O. Changes in the fuel of the mixture is not the same as changes in the oxygen of the mixture.
Because N2O does increase the amount of oxygen in the combustion chamber, I do consider it a form of FI. As for the cheating thing, well some people consider any form of FI cheating. Some would consider N2O cheating only cause it is alot cheaper and limited in its use.
I would rather have another form of FI, cause I would want my boost more permenant, but everyone has to realize, to each is own.
Because N2O does increase the amount of oxygen in the combustion chamber, I do consider it a form of FI. As for the cheating thing, well some people consider any form of FI cheating. Some would consider N2O cheating only cause it is alot cheaper and limited in its use.
I would rather have another form of FI, cause I would want my boost more permenant, but everyone has to realize, to each is own.
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From: Charlotte, NC
good call, Forged... 
Seriously, tho...
Y'know.. I was in the camp that SC would be better for autoX than turbo until last weekend. I was watching a car show (think it was C&D TV) where they flogged an EVO and and WRX STi... of course, both turbo cars. They did the standard round of road tests... then they took them back to their roots! Both cars were run over a dirt rally course and they rocked!!!!
Definitely will be keeping my options open. NA for now, but I see some SC or TT in the crystal ball still...
Seriously, tho...
Ultimately I think your right on for autocross with the SC although with good tuning on your turbo setup and the right size matching you will have very little to no turbo lag so it would also be a good thing for autocross... but SC I think would require less fine tuning to get there
Definitely will be keeping my options open. NA for now, but I see some SC or TT in the crystal ball still...
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From: Oceanside Ca
Oh the problems of owning a quick car! I have a diesel truck and have never worried about a ticket (maybe blocking traffic more than ticket). Now, the rear view mirror is a needed device for checking for cops. The Z is tempting me all the time and sometimes it is hard to say no. I wonder how I will ever say know if I go FI?