mcduck

I am very hyped on getting FI in my car and thought the ATI would do the trick, but with the problems others have had lately I have started to rethink things.

It has now come down to two options... I'm looking at the GReddy & Power Enterprise TT kits or possibly going NA. The last was not an option until the post here about the Mossy Performance Z. It's putting out some nice numbers on purely NA power.

Guess my question for the masses is this... I am not particulary interested in taking my Z to the drag (maybe once for my own knowledge, but not regularly). Similarly, I may track my car once or twice, but will not make a regular thing of it. I'm more interested in the occasional road trip to the mountains or playing with the locals in their LS1s, Mustangs, and suped up Hondas.

With this goal in mind, am I better off shooting for NA, which will be more useful power, or TT which will be more instantaneous, intimidating power?

This has become a real dilemma for me because of the work at Mossy Performance. For approximately $3500 or so, I can get my car over 280rwhp NA. If I dump an additional $3500 to equal what I would put in a TT kit, could I then be getting close to 320-330rwhp NA??? If so, I think this would be the better route to take. (also, keep in mind I've already installed Borla TD and AEM CAI, so those costs come out of what I have to pay to hit the hp numbers now).

Thoughts???

ravaz

iTrader: (1)

In my opinion, the ATI kit is decent, my problem is a tuning issue, not really a ATI issue, unless we find a faulty part, which I seriously doubt. In my opinion, and experience. If you want to guarantee minimal problems, then go all motor. There is always more of a chance when you go the forced induction route, that something might happen. It all comes down to tuning and we all know, shiit happens and tuning can get screwed. I'd go all motor, N/A if you want the most reliablity. Maybe you can go all motor, and a mild shot of nitrous or something like that, still would be very reliable, and from the sounds of it, you won't be using the power that much anyway. I bet you can get very close to 300 with the parts Mossy has and an AFC and the plenum, probably closer to 290ish with tose 2 additions.

MY350Z.COM

iTrader: (2)

I'm going NA, I would be happy with 320-330rwhp NA.

It's going to cost more than an ATI unit for sure, but I think it is worth it for the reliability.

Victor

Glasgow Smile

iTrader: (1)

NA here too.

Like Mike said, "282whp without test pipes, Crawford Plenum or ECU." (Don't think that's a word for word quote)

Add those and that'd put us over 300rwhp, which would suit me just fine.

If I could hit 310-320rwhp in a NA car I'd be more than happy.

mcduck

Thanks for the input, guys. I'm getting more sold on the NA route by the minute.

Don't get me wrong... I think the FI would be great, but I'm looking at "I can dump $7-8K into one mod" or "I can dump $7-8K in several mods". The advantage of the latter is that I can do it over time and/or focus on different areas of the car.

And tho I generally don't like nitrous (I feel it's like cheating), something in the 50-shot or under range may be just the extra I need when I'm done to get the straight line hp an FI kit would provide. That would be my last mod after everything else, tho.

If anyone else has opinions, please share!

zxsaint

IMO, I don't see the mossy Z gaining much more from the plenum and test pipes, as he's at the limits for NA breathing mods.

Tho, I could see a custom tuned ECU giving it another 10rwhp.

little_rod

You have to remember that while the peak power ratings of the N/A and SC routes will look similar, you are comparing it to a TT. The TT will give you more area under the power curve than any of these others cause it is at full boost at around 3-4 thousand RPM. So having 330 rwhp when you are comparing are two totally different power curves. Most of the power made by NA is usually added at the top, and while dependable, it is not TT which will be putting out more power throughout the rev range.

I respect N/A, and I am still undecided on what I will do. SC is the cheapest route to high power, and if tuned right, should be dependable. Greddy is talking 334 rwhp or something, and while you can get that for a similar price N/A, of course the Greddy will not only make more power at that peak number, it also has much more upside.

BTW, I have often wondered, if you do have a kit like the Greddy, could you reused some of those parts on you next car.

mcduck

Good points, little_rod.... I'd love to see the full dyno on the Mossy Z. It would be interesting to see how much power they gain across the band as opposed to peak.

Hopefully, we'll start seeing some actual production unit data on the PE and GReddy soon so I can make a decision. If I decide to go NA, I'd like to have my Z in the shop mid-October... otherwise, I'll ride it out until later in the year.

zland

Lil rod & McDuck:

I have seen the dyno results of Mossy Z, baseline right next to the 282 pull. Both are linear with the 282 pull increasing hp more as rpm's increase. The one thing of note is the hp peaked on the baseline pull at about 6200rpm while the 282 pull was still increasing hp right at 6700/redline.

I think we could see more hp just off of a ECU upgrade due to moving the redline up to 7100 or 7200rpm. IMHO, this is because of the new cam where as if you moved the redline on a Z without the cam, it would not peak any higher than 6200rpm.

I will try to get a copy of the Mossy Dyno from Greg and post it for you guys....Jeff

little_rod

Well, it is safe to say that the power curve for a TT setup would be different than the curve for any other setup. With an SC, you do get that instant "0.5 second jerk", but after that, the TT will make more power. Even the most dedicated N/A motor person will tell you that most of the power gained with it is at the top.

My thoughts are to figure out what your goal is, and how much money you want to spend. For $4000 and less, I would go N/A. For $4500-7000, I would go SC. At $7000+, I would go TT. It is all about money to me, cause if tuned right, all will have about the same amount of reliability. Now in saying this, if you are dedicated to one particular kind of making power and are willing to spend more money on it, to each is own, this is JMO.

nonmature

why does everyone feel nitrous is cheating... I think its a valuable tool in racing...

that aside I am goin just about the same route as mossy probably... all those plus the test pipes plenum and ecu will be a very strong car... I'm also thinkin of re-gearing but that will probably be the last thing I do... I also have a nitrous kit goin back in the car which we are upgrading to 125 to the wheels... that should be around 420 rwhp (ballpark) that is a preety big jump

282 hp is plenty to break off nearly everything on the street I think but I think you want more torque then anything if your car packs in that torque down low and throughout the band you will have a hardcore street machine

-non

mcduck

Keep us posted... not that I don't trust the other review (which was very good, Zland!), but it's always good to have more than one impression. And if you are impressed enough to go ahead and have the work done after a first hand experience, that says a lot.

I'm still considering TT... it's not really a cost issue for me, it's more of a reliability and driveability issue. I don't drive my Z every day, but I do drive it a lot. I want to make upgrades that are easy to live with on a daily basis and won't have a high probably of crapping out on me when I'm on road trip 2+ hrs from home!

I realize a properly tuned and maintained TT car shouldn't be any more risky than a properly tuned and maintained NA car, but at least with NA, if something were to happen, I'm sure I could fix it myself. With TT if I have a failure, I would be guessing and could possibly incur serious damage without having a tuner look at.

Guess, I'll keep watching here for another week or so before I make a final decision, but either way, I think I see a new plenum in the near future!

mcduck

Because it is... it's the street racing equivalent of taking steroids in professional sports.

And, no matter how well the nitrous set up is done, it is always like taking a sledgehammer to your pistons. With NA, TT, or SC, the gain in power can be great, but there is an exponential curve on which the power builds, it just builds more quickly with FI. With nitrous, you have instantaneous power, like flipping a light switch. There is no curve, just sudden, more forceful impact on your pistons.

Not saying don't use it, but to me it's the "no skill required" performance gain...

nonmature

FIRST OFF NITROUS IS FI!!!

if Nitrous is steroids what is a turbo or SC(umm answer... STEROIDS)

well here is one thought, this is why they made nitrous contollers and timers... ask smithtown... what was thier best run like 11.7.... hhhmmmm... with a progressive nitrous shot...

here is one more if your runnin your TT you honestly think that that is goin to put less strain on your pistons then say a 75 hp nitrous shot... the torque you add down low with that TT puts a lot of strain on your pistons too you know, all in one pretty big bang at the bottom and when it builds it puts even more stress... also a tt or SC is goin to put more stress on your pistons constantly being as it is always running... granted it wont be at full boost all the time but it will be more than my car when its not runnin nitrous...

and as for the no skill required I'd love to see you controll what you said is instantaneous (as you put it) HP all at once... lets say 150 hp as opposed to a TT which has that nice "curve" you were talkin about

bottom line nitrous takes its own skill just as any other sort of FI or even an NA car... you dont want to use it thats fine but it is just as legit as any other form of FI

-non

zland

[QUOTE]Originally posted by mcduck
[B]Keep us posted... not that I don't trust the other review (which was very good, Zland!), but it's always good to have more than one impression.

I agree 100%. Do not take my word for it, if you live in southern Calif, go to Mossy and get into that Z and check it out, that is why they built it. I am not sold on any route yet (SC, TT, NA). I am still keeping my options open.

BTW, I am going to try and get the dynos for that 282 hp mossy Z for you guys rather than you guys trusting my butt dyno.

mcduck

I was referring to mechanical knowledge, not driving skill. As for handling the HP... I think if I managed to drive a 550rwhp '68 Dodge Charger R/T, handling the much more forgiving 350Z, even with as much as 400rwhp, will be a breeze...

Probably not my best analogy on this forum, but the bottom line is NO2 offers gain without any real effort. SC and turbo offer big gains, but some effort must be made to get them.

Not only do I think it does... I know it does. It's a simple matter of physics. With a SC or TT, your power comes in a continuous curve. It may be a quickly changing curve when compared to stock, but it is still a curve. With NO2, it's a disjointed curve. Even with progressive, there are sudden "jolts" of increased power... they are not as extreme, but you have several instead of just one. Basically, the power does something like this...

..........................................________
..........................._______|
.............. ______|
_______|

everywhere there is a verticle line represents one of the phases of the progressive NO2 increase. These sudden changes have more impact on the longevity of the system than the smoother curves offered by TT or SC. I don't think anyone would argue that any of these routes (TT, SC, or NO2) is going to shorten the life of your motor. All I'm saying, everything else equal, an FI system that adds 150HP will be less hard on a motor than an NO2 shot that adds 150HP.

Finally...
Um... you can yell all you want, but you're still wrong. FI, in the context I used it, is Forced Induction... as in Supercharger or Turbocharger. Nitrous Oxide is not a forced induction by any stretch of the imagination. It is a fuel additive (or substitute) that creates a more volatile air/fuel mixture resulting in more powerful combustion.

That is all from the peanut gallery...

reallyredZ

I would offer my opinion... But I honestly dont have one. Turbo charging the Z would be VERY nice. I would also like to see it once its done since we both are in charlotte. But I would go with an N/A buildup for practical reasons. One being I doubt Greddy will have all the kinks worked out in their turbo kits, and they might run into the same problems as ATI. And what shops would you be getting this installed from? I only know of about 5, and 3 of them I wouldnt get anything installed there.

mcduck

reallyred...

my current line of thought is do some NA build that is boost friendly, then go Twin Turbo sometime next spring after PE and GReddy have had time to work out the bugs on their respective kits.

If you want to catch up with me to see my progress, we sometimes have 350Z get-togethers here in Charlotte and usually post them on the South East forum. Also, I'm starting to come out to the Carolina Z club meets the first Monday of each month. go to their website for more details.

little_rod

I don't know, duck, if you are going FI, you might want to look into suspension or brakes or both. Nice to have the total package with FI, unless you just plan on drag racing, then that is different.

mcduck

Already in the que, little_rod! Just doing some motor stuff first. Looking at some NA goodness by mid-Oct. Then some suspension (maybe S-tune) after Xmas, and FI late next spring.

Probably will do some Stop-Techs somewhere along the way when I have the extra money. It's all in the master plan, but the NA motor mods are coming first since I'm not doing FI before the end of the year!