Ag Z

Looks to me you are trying to set yourself up to be a player when the system comes out by making this Infomercial thread.

Had you stated that little fact in your very first post then everyone would have known your bias and the real reason for it.

So are you planning to take 20% off the kits when they come out?

phunk

iTrader: (21)

If you can offer some sort of useful information, please do so. Otherwise go stir-up unrelated drama somewhere else. First of all, you seem to be ignoring the fact that I have said I will gladly sell you either products. Do you have some sort of reason to think I would benefit trying to sell a product that doesnt even exist yet, rather then a product that I could have been selling for quite some time now and making money on?

Maybe you need to know that I dont even bother selling 350z parts? I have not sold 1 single 350z part, EVER. I have 2 Borla true duals sitting in my inventory that have been there forever... I put a post on here about it with no response. I dont really participate much in this community at all... let alone participate as a dealer of 350z products.

Player in the industry or not... There is no reason why I am not entitled to offer my opinions as well. If you feel better thinking that shop owners only make product recommendations based on profit... go ahead. But maybe if you knew anything about this industry, you would know that there is very very very little income from retail of the parts unless you do it BIG TIME. All the money is in wholesale (Which I dont do) and installations and tuning (which I do).

I am left to assume that your accusations are merely a distraction from your lack of good arguement.

thanks chief.

Fëanor

"As to a turbocharger creating more intake temps? Well, this is all up in the air. "

Actually it's all in the manifold, which in the case of a turbo is physically attached to the compressor, and heat conducts very well through iron. At any given efficiency, the turbo is always going to be much warmer than the supercharger.

Looking at the dynos posted here, the parasitic loss of the ATI unit would have to be somewhere between 5-10 hp, since this is about the difference between its power and the Greddy/PE TTs. The efficiencies are almost certainly comparable.

ForceInduction

Man, I really hate doing this, but it irks when people compare t/c to s/c and they only point out negative aspects of the s/c, just to make it look better. Well, here is my view more tainted towards a s/c. Hopefully this will steer up a good debate.


1. “A twin turbo Z, and a supercharged Z, both with 400rwhp... guess which one is getting better gas mileage, will last longer, and putting less load on the engine to produce those #'s.... your right.. the twin turbo car wins.”

Disagree: I think fuel management will make the difference on the fuel economy. If one kit has larger injectors you can expect the kit with the larger injectors to waste more gas. The reliability depends on tuning, and how well of quality the system is made of. And the load on the engines all depend on tuning and other factors like “HEAT, which is the one of the main cause of detonation and stress on engines.”


2. SC systems boost with less control. While they are consistent, there is less throttle based control. If you have ever driven a turbo car for more than a minute you already know that you can keep out of boost very easily if you want to. Not to mention the fact that a turbo system will allow on the fly boost changes with a boost controller.

Disagree, to a point: Yes Turbochargers you can control boost with a ****, but you can also change boost with an s/c with a pulley change. Ontop of this, s/c work under vacuum so boost is there when you need it, it too is very easy to stay off boost.


3. Reliability. A WELL engineered turbo system, properly installed, will not need to be screwed with. SC systems commonly eat belts. I sure would be pissed if I lost a belt just when getting into a race. A turbo system using cast iron manifolds, reputable turbo’s, flex sections in the down pipes, blow off valve(s), and good oil feed and return lines can go a LONGLONG LONG time without any special attention providing you do not shut off the engine immediately after boosting hard often.

Disagree: Everyone knows a s/c reliability is superior to a t/c. With turbo’s you have to worry about a lot of things oil being one and Heat being another and not to mention detonation and timing and everything else, and boost controller, and boost creep, and turbo timers, and manifolds cracking, and over-boosting, down pipes, and once again heat, and maybe some other things, oh yea punching a line in your pan for oil, then making sure it doesn’t leak, then oil feed line for the turbo, then lag. Well, you get my point. Not to mention most t/c systems will not come with a warranty, why do you think?


4. Noise, SC cars make a lot of noise. The SC itself makes noise even when you are just sitting there at a light. A turbo system can be very civil and go completely unnoticed if you desire and drive it so. Exhaust tone of a turbo car is typically much more toned and civil than a SC or NA car.

Disagree:. Turbo’s have a very distinctive whine, which usually builds up with RPM. A s/c whine is only at the lower rpm and it dies out.


5: The ONLY downside from the turbo system is the LAG. Well... I drive turbo cars ALL the time. Instant spool up can be annoying, like I said previously. But at any rate... if you have owned a turbo car and played with it before, you know that turbo spool up is pretty much instant at a high RPM.

: You for got PRICE, Completeness of kit, Warranties, and HEAT.

ForceInduction

btw, yes a turbo will create more heat. The turbo is getting it's power from the exhaust manifold. This manifold creates a lot of heat. Simple test you can conduct for us is.

Run two cars, one turbo and the other supercharged. Drive both for a couple minutes and pop up the hood. I bet you could sit on the s/c but the t/c you cannot.

Ralphus

I agree with ForceInduction, after owning turbo and SC cars, SC is by far better when adding FI to an NA engine. If you REALLY want turbo, buy a car that's factory turbocharged and upgrade form there!

Sanderman

Look, this parasitic drag argument is horsesh*t. The ATI'd car nets out with a huge increase in real world performance across the entire powerband. Contrast this with obvious and clearly manifested lag you will feel and experience everytime you drive the a turbo equipped car. You argue about phantom SC power losses that net out as basically irrelevant and dismiss actual turbo lag that reduces drivability as something you can live with or simply dismiss as unimportant. Give me a break.

And yes, I know were not talking Civics here. Funny thing is I was about to say the same thing to you.

joe

Zig Zag

Phunk,

Awesome post man!
I was out cruising Sunday a.m.

I was in the neighborhood of your shop.
From what I could tell, its looks nice.

I was going to drop in and say hi, and to see if you still have those borlas. Are you ever around on weekends?

Is is a prob if I stop by uninvited?

jcv

Just a G35 owner sticking his nose in this interesting post. Don't plan to SC or TT (had many of both) so I'm only moderately biased! Flame suit on!!!

Turbo lag is dependent on the turbo(s) sizing and design, intake/exhaust plumbing diameter and length (air velocity and inertia) plus a by pass valve or variable vanes. Pretty much the same is true for centrifugal SC, just not to same degree. Screw or Rootes doesn't have the same degree of issue and boosts quicker. Proper sizing of turbos or sequential turbos can almost eliminate lag for the street and even the track.

Efficiency of turbo is better for turbo at cruise (freewheeling, equalized pressure across turbine). Centri SC is next with minor pumping losses if clutched and Rootes/Screw worst due to pumping losses and inertial losses. Bypass valves help the SC to some extent as do clutch engagement.

Intake heat depends primarily on compression (boost) and some on flow residence time. Turbo and Centri roughly equal, Rootes/Screw almost always higher due to engine proximity and contact surface length.

Centri SC going back to McCollough and Andy Granitelli, who really pioneered it for the street, were used alot because of simplicity of installation. Rootes/Screw are also fairly easy and generally turbos hardest because of plumbing.

Big generality, Rootes/Screw give highest torque at lowest rpm, followed by Centri and then turbo but again specific designs really impact this. For example, initial compression ratios, bore/stroke, rear end gears, etc.

All in all, the best depends on what you want, when you want it, what you want to spend on it and how long it will last.

Shoot away, I just couldn't resist! I use a nuclear turbine.

little_rod

Well, this has been a very informative trend for everyone who is reading it. Hopefully, you turbo and SC fans can keep this discussion calm. People always say, go out and do your own research, well alot of people who read this site think they are doing at least some of that here, lol.

Both of these systems have their advantages and disadvantages. phunk, thanks for taking the time to share your thoughts, as you have done alot of the work yourself to get to your thoughts.

Alot of times, on this site, someone either goes through a lot of work, or just posts their thoughts and they get flamed for it as the initial thread poster. It usually happens when people have made choices of their own gives reasons for their decision, and someone who made another decision is offended cause whatever those reasons of the orginal poster are, is different from their purchase. No reason to get hostile over different views.

Bottom line, because of more area under the curve, the turbo makes more power. No way around that. But there are advantages to an SC which can't be ignored, and the price is a huge one.

350Zzzz

For the street racer with stock engine, definitely SC .

With turbos you might want to consider building up on your bottom end, as most street autos lack a solid bottom end. Moreover turbos are more complex and run much hotter.

G

Linh811

I basically like the characteristics of the stock engine, just more of it. SC for me, when funds are available of course

nonmature

ok I'm going to hit as many points as I can remeber...

first off I with little rod would like to thank Phunk for the post it has been fun so far and is a good debate

now as for parasitic loss this is very simple guys come on... if you have an engine running everything that is attached example AC PS and such, if you add one more thing on the crank its going to lose power... and I think the loss will be more like 10-20 hp at least posible as much as 25 like phunk has said, and I like him will only guess at this figure since I have no evidence

LAG
please if you size your turbos correctly you can pretty much eliminate lag, I have driven in civics that were spooling at idle and still making great power, did I feel lag??? none what so ever... all this is in turbine size as well as matching it with the correct compressor

HEAT
yes I would agree that a turbo puts out more heat than an SC but forced induction if you think you are going to run an SC for a few minutes and then sit on top and have it be cool enough not to get burned you must have leather buns man, cause I wouldnt sit ontop of mine if I drove it up and down my little street here and I dont have either...
also there are many things you can do to help with the heat issues as phunk has said you can use exhaust wrap... and as for oil you can get oil coolers or higher capacity oil pans, and many other things

SC's
now that you are all talkin about heat issues and oil issues what about other issues with the SC such as belts, and having to pull out a pulley to change boost? as well as space requirements I know the procharger doesnt require more space but stillens does...

AG z
I really dont think phunk was pushin the TT for the selling reasons I'm sure he is probably certified to sell you a procharger as well so why not push what he can sell you now and make money off you??? bottom line he offered his reasons why he would rather go TT instead of SC... he wants the high upgradeability of the TT so that he can go for high output... his choice his preference and being as he could probably get either for cheaper than we will pay more power to him

RESEARCH
now as for all you lookin to go FI yes I would say that this is part of your research... this is the customer feedback... but I would say above all things try to get in a car that has both and PHYSICALLY SPEAK TO THE OWNER... ask them if they have had ANY problems with fuel management(I know ATI has had some issues with the FMU) have the fried any spark plugs, noticed a gas mileage change, noticed anything they can think off

anyways thats about all I can thinkof now... I dont think anyone should take this stuff so personally... relax its just a discussion it doesnt take an attitude to prove a point or disprove one.,..

-non

phunk

iTrader: (21)

i am very happy so far with the results from this thread. while i still stand my ground... i have become more understanding of the SC gurus.

im hoping to have some time this afternoon to reply to all the recent posts.

i suppose that despite some of my original comments... maybe the decision isnt quite so "clear" and "obvious".

350Z-RED

PHUNK, and the rest of you guys
This thread is very informative, and helped me alot in making my FI decisions. I will be going SC, reason being
1. MONEY...
2. EASY or EASIER INSTALL...
3. Near the same performance as the turbo with the stock engine

I do plan on upgrading the internal in a couple of years, and when i do that the only way i will go is TURBO CHARGED, i think turbo is the way to go for big HP.

this is only my .02
please don't flame me

nonmature

so let me get this straight your gonna spend 5k then spend another 6-7k on another completely differnet setup in a couple of years.... sounds like a waste too me if youre goin for a big turbo setup then just save your money and buy one...

go for what you want and do youre resaerch so you know what you want... it will save you money in the long run

-non

little_rod

I have to agree with non here. 350Z-Red, that is not a very good plan, not trying to flame you, heh. That is exactly the worse plan anyone could have and what all the info that is being presented is trying to prevent.

I am looking for the Vortech kit to come out, as I believe (no real basis, lol) that it will be cheaper than the procharger. Patience will be rewarded.

Sanderman

I agree with you up to a point. I've owned two cars with smaller twin turbos and driven three others with twin or sequential turbos and while the lag is nowhere near as bad as in the old Porsche 944 turbo or 930 turbo days it's still there. Can you drive around it? Yes. Can you anticipate it? Yes. Does that make it fun or acceptable? Not neccesarily. Especially if you drive on the street and not the track. And the more HP you want to make the bigger the turbos you have to use and the lag only gets worse.

There is no doubt that turbo cars can make huge HP numbers, but getting there requires rebuilding the engine, using big turbos and increasing lag in the process. I see lots of folks talk about their experience turboing civics (not directed at you) and they dont seem to realize that tuboing a 3,000 lb + car to 400 and up invariably drives you to big turbos and lag issues. The math works a little differently when you are only trying to push around a 2,000 lb sub compact (or smaller).

Don't get me wrong - I LOVED my 300 TTs in both stock and modded form as they are all I drove for 10 years. And the last generation RX7 and Supra were a blast too. But the low end torque and near absoute lack of lag with the Procharger makes this car immensly more tractable on the street for daily driving than any turbo I've ever felt on a car of this size and weight.

joe

jcv

Sanderman, I've been in some newer Porsches with turbos and other mod turbo cars that had almost imperceptible lag so they are practical on the street-these are generally small turbine size (whatever you want) with short small intake tract and smaller intercooler. In fact, a centrifugal supercharger has it's own lag to due turbine sizing and intake plumbling, usually not as bad. Don't forget the main compressor wheel in the centrifugal has it's counter part in the turbo -it's just the drive motivation that differs.

Either of these systems can have most of the lag tuned out with plumbing and intake and/or exhaust tubing size. If you want to spend the money, a by pass valve helps. No system does it all. If you want high rpm max hp you go big turbo or large centri SC- usually turbo wins here by a hair depending on ultimate rpm. Low end torque- screw or rootes first with centri next -centri usually being easiest to add aftermarket.

These are all basically pumps of somewhat different design and have specific limitations depending on the application. Just like pumping, water, chemicals, gas or oil (what my company does). There is no one right answer, even for the same model car since it's owners perfromance goals maybe different than yours. High rpm max hp, high rpm torque or maybe just mid-range power.

By the way, you and I have common views since I also had the 300TT and RX7TT but I also had a Buick GN and I gotta say torque rules the roost on the street.

Sanderman

Haven't been in the newer Porsche turbos. Glad to hear they are better - the old ones were like on off switches. And since discovering the joys of more torque I'm having a lot of fun. On the track, it'd be different. The stops ands starts aren't the issue there.

And I agree with your horses for courses / personal taste comment. It's just that there seems to be a lot of dogmatic "turbos and max HP are better" talk around here that seems more often than not to stem from what people think and read rather than actually experience.

If people know what they're getting and it's what they want thats cool. It's just lots of folks who havn't expereinced either spend too much time lookming at numbers without getting behind them and what it will really mean when they're behind the wheel in the real world...

joe