azrael

The RB26 has been around in various forms for something like 20 years. They've had AGES to build parts for it.

The Z has been around for just over a year. No big surprise that there aren't 1000hp Z's running around yet.

Rama

What's funny is all these people wanting to switch to the RB26 meanwhile every R34 Skyline in JGTC is running a VQ30DETT and the new GTR set to come in 2007 is supposedly going to have a VQ32DETT. VQ is the future.

twenzel

iTrader: (27)

Those 1000HP RB26 motors arent achieved cheaply. Those motors you speak of are RACE motors that have already had everything replaced. The same thing you have to do on a VQ. The 2JZ on the other hand can get to that power range a little cheaper.

azrael

Buick Grand National. Enough said.

The LC2 V6 is infinitely stronger than the RB.

The only reason you're saying this is that Nissan and Toyota make the RB26DETT and the 2JZGTE respectively. The fact is, any factory boosted motor will be much stronger than an NA counterpart. The fact that both happen to be I6 designs are coincidental. The only thing an I6 has over a V6 is natural balance. The harmonic balancers and counterweighted crankshafts on modern engines overcome this issue easily.

The huge DISadvantage of an I6 is it's weight. The engine is heavier, and what's worse, the weight is all up at the front of the car, near the front bumper. This is the worst possible case for handling, where you want as little weight as possible, and you want it all to be near the center of the vehicle for better rotational inertia characteristics. Despite what you may think, Nissan designed the Z to be an all-around sports car, not a drag car. As such, weight and handling were a top priority. It shows.

Noire93.5

This is not a VQ bashing response but here I go..

What is the block of the VQ made out of? aluminum, right?
whether a V8 (03 Cobra or a I6 you'll need an iron block to hold boost pressure, ie Grand Natty V6

The Supra and the Skyline are two of the best handling cars out there. So the I6 is not a negative for roadhandling.

Beyond the natural the balance of the I6 the I6 also give you MORE room for a turbo. Ask any 300Z owner how much they were quoted for a full turbo swap. You gotta pull the motor for that. (I'm talking beyone the Sport500 package, a complete kit with headers, exhaust etc.it gets REAL crowded and even more expensive)

Look under the hood of a Grand Natty they have plenty of room for a turbo and for heat to escape, the 350 barely has room for an CAI to be installed.

AND you do not want as little weight as possible on the front axel, engineers want a 50-50 balance.

I will admit that the 350Z wasnt meant to be an all out performer like the Supra and the Skylines. Apples and oranges,please dont say it is because just look at the price tag and the hefty weight of the 350. Nissan learned that lesson a few years ago. (hence the death of the Supra, RX-7 and the 300Z, they became too expensive)

I shouldnt have even written as much as I have, b/c you already said that the RB is better.
"The fact is, any factory boosted motor will be much stronger than an NA counterpart." VQ is NA, right? RB boosted, right?
Rev to 9 grand redline under boost on a VQ, hell even in a built VQ it will be messy. Now do it on a stock RB, all day long just keep the tank filled with gas.

The 350 is awesome but I dont think it can compare to the Skyline heritage in terms or engine performance or track performance.

Rama

Thats why they switch to the VQ in JGTC right? And hasnt the Hasemi 350 done well? what about the Stream Z in the Silver State Classic that crashed wasn't that pumping out mass HP?

dpspc11

It's not coincidental at all. Inline 6s are have a lower production cost. The I6 eliminates redundancy especially in turbo applications. I would guess less plumbing would equal more response. As for handling, BMW has great success with the inline configuration in its 3/M3 Series. Lowering production cost is key, Nissan solved this by using its VQ series throughout its model line. The main reason nissan chose the much more compact v6 is so it could be used in front wheel drive applications... My .02

azrael

This post is LOADED with misinformation. I'll address it point by point.

There are plenty of aluminum blocks that handle boost just fine. Ductile iron sleeves are the well-tested solution. Call up any of the sleeve manufacturers. Most rate their sleeves at 55+ psi, which is FAR more than you'll ever want to run on anything short of an all-out drag race motor.

False. Both cars are extremely heavy, and due to the I6 engine, they have weight that is IN FRONT of the axle, which is a huge negative for handling. Despite these facts, both cars do well, but there are FAR better handling cars out there. The engine's weight is a handicap. The designers had to compensate for the weight up front with weight in the back to balance the car out, resulting in curb weights that are honestly too high for a sports car. The Supra weighs near 3600 lbs. That's heavy.

That's true, but it's hardly a good reason to yank an engine and fabricate a whole custom setup for another engine. Several companies have twin turbo setups available, and there are more on the way.

You didn't read my post very closely. The issue is weight IN FRONT of the axle, as I stated above. The I6 always hangs out in front of the front axle, which is very detrimental to handling. There is a very good reason why Nissan is pushing their 'FM' platform. It's good for handling. The closer the weight is to the center of the vehicle, the lower the rotational inertia, and thus, better handling.

The same principle applies to the figure skater. You've seen them spin with their arms in close and then extended? When their arms extend, moment of inertia increases, and they spin at a slower rate. When they bring their arms in, the moment of inertia decreases, and they spin faster.

To achieve good handling, we want a low moment of inertia. A huge iron I6 hanging over the front axle is the worst thing you can do to the car's balance and moment of inertia.

I said the RB is factory boosted, but I definitely did NOT say it is better. The VQ is a more advanced design, and an all-around better engine. The RB's internals are stronger, but only good for about 650 HP. Supposedly, some tuners have achieved that level of power on a stock VQ35 as well, although I'm skeptical about the reliability at that power level. Your comments about a built VQ at 9000 RPM have no validity because you don't have a shred of data about such a setup. You're simply fabricating opininated 'evidence' to support your claims.

But if you build both motors, the VQ has a lot more potential, primarily due to better flow characteristics and larger displacement.. and it weighs a LOT less too. It's a win-win situation, and that's why Nissan chooses to race the VQ.

The RB is an old, tired design, and Nissan has chosen to retire it. It doesn't meet emissions, and there are better, lighter, cheaper engines at their disposal. The RB and Skyline sackriders need to get over it and move on. There are better options now, and that's a good thing for us car enthusiasts.


Some people here will almost certainly disagree with what I've said, and I don't have a problem with it. I've explained why I feel the way I do, and I'm done discussing it.

Rama

azrael I am so with you on this we see eye to eye on this

reallyredZ

Guys... Come on. The Z has been out for little more than a year. Give it some time! I own a 3g eclipse as well, and that thing has been out for more than 4 years now. What do we have for it? About 4 exhaust systems, 2 intake systems, and ONE supercharger kit. The Z has more exhaust systems than it knows what to do with. The aftermarket support for this car is amazing, and will continue to grow. I personally can't see myself do anything huge to this car right now, but I sure am glad people are doing it for me. Look, if people are getting 350 horsepower from ford's 3.8 (which is the saddest excuse for an engine), then we can get 600 reliable hp from our Z's. Its just going to have to take some time.

articfury

azrael,

You keep stating that the RB is heavier than the VQ, yet other posts from the original RB swap discussion stated that the RB was lighter. Do you have actual weights of the two?

It was also pointed out that the RB sat lower, and maybe farther back IIRC, than the VQ. If either of these is the case, the handling of the the Z would not be that greatly affected by the change. Additionally, if the weight of the RB is equal or less, as previously stated by others, the handling would be as good, if not possibly better, for reasons which you have already stated.

As you pointed out from others' posts, your information on the ability of a VQ to handle boost, even in fortified configuration, is not based on empirical data. There are a few companies out there that have experience with this, but they haven’t exactly published their findings. And until that information becomes more readily available, boosting the VQ still involves a lot of unknowns.

As for the statement of potential, today the RB definitely has more potential simply because of the years of development already done. In the future, I am sure the VQ will be shown to have as much or more. As for the cost of that potential, a V6 is always going to be more expensive to upgrade (not including the swap obviously, I am just discussing the motors.) Which could at some point make the swap an interesting option, if someone perfects it. And that is a big IF.

Rama,

Using your JGTC logic, all the Supra owners should get rid of those pesky 2JZ's and throw in a 3S-GTE.

Was the JUN/Option 350Z 650whp or 850whp or does anyone really know? The numbers keep growing…

I find if very interesting how this discussion always turns into a pissing match about the VQ vs. the RB.

The original post was a simple question of what happened to the car being done for a customer by Batlground.

I believe I read in recent post in the original thread that the owner had some issues with money and there was a mention of issues with Batlground. Not the full story though.

Both routes of upgrades are interesting to me. It all comes down to the owner of the individual car and what they want to do.

D

g356gear

iTrader: (12)

http://www.xtrememotorwerks.com/350z.htm

This 350z is running the RB swap. I purchased the original motor from Carl at extreme for my own project.

azrael

I don't have the engine weights on hand... I've searched and can't find that information for the VQ. The simple fact that it's made of aluminum should result in a much lighter engine. (I suppose I could be wrong, I really wish I had the data to back up what I'm saying) The RB usually does sit lower, which is a bonus, but I don't know how it could possibly sit farther back. If you look in the Z's engine bay, the VQ is already sitting fairly close to the rear firewall. The RB is almost twice the length of the VQ, and from the pictures I've seen, it barely sits in the engine bay. What that means to me is weight in front of the axle. For drag racing, I suppose you wouldn't care.. but I do. It's certainly a debatable issue.

Definitely.. but there's nothing magical about the VQ that will make it so different than other engines in the FI department. Sleeves, rods, and pistons.. a crank if you want, and maybe some valvetrain work.. and I'm sure you can extract all kinds of power. It's a strong design. 4 bolt mains, lots of cooling. I've been really impressed with what I've seen so far.. but yes, it remains to be seen how the VQ handles power levels north of 600 HP.

If you have two 350Zs, one with a VQ, and one with an RB, then yes, it should be easier to make power today with the RB.. but handling issues aside, you've already agreed that the cost of the swap will overwhelm the cost of building a VQ. That was my main point. Why swap to an engine that might adversely affect handling, and end up spending more just to make the same level of power? I guess some people prefer that route, more power to them.

Well, technically, the 3S-GTE results in a better race car, especially in the handling department, and Toyota has gotten a ton of power out of the 3S-GTE (it's a GREAT engine), but to get those levels of upper-RPM power, you lose low-end torque, and that's not acceptable on the street.

Definitely. The people who are determined to do the swap certainly have the right, and I think it's a very interesting accomplishment. I just have a problem with the people who idolize the RB and R34 just because we don't get them in the US. There are a ton of people who think the RB is the pinnacle of engine technology, and that simply isn't the case.

azrael

one other thing --

If I were going to do an RB swap, I'd do it in an S13 chassis. It's a proven swap, and it's a much lighter car. The KA is already a heavy iron engine, and supposedly the RB doesn't have too much of an effect on handling (although I'm not sure, I've never driven an RB-S13). Seems like a safer and better route than shoving the RB into a brand new car with a perfectly good engine..

just my 2,735,215 cents.

MY350Z.COM

iTrader: (2)

Enough said

http://www.nissan-dakar.com/EN/SPECI..._VQ/index.html

Nismobilized

VERY TRUE!

The swap has been done many times, some companies (like Mckinney Motorsports) have RB25DET (from a skyline GT-S) motor mounts ready to sell. (these motor mounts push the engine down and in, so the added weight isn't stressed on the front axle) I think they are even developing RB26DETT motor mounts as well. though they might use a single turbo setup instead of twins.

So far, I've only seen the GT-S and the old RB20DET engine swapped into the 240sx. I don't know about handling though.

articfury

Someone questioned the existence of the RB powered Z33 earlier.

http://www.nismo.co.jp/M_SPORTS/news2003/news19.html

This is the press release for the Z33 with the full RB drivetrain that ran at Pike's Peak, or pike speaking via the altavista translation .

Victor thanks for the info.

D

hammerhead

The new Nissan truck has a V8, so does Infinity. What's the affection with a V6. The aluminum V8's are light, large displacement, high torque and for the money to swap, no different. How about a blown Nissan V8, intercooled with the ugly Stillen hood to make it fit and built to a NASCAR level dependable 650HP? Whatever man can envision can be done.

350Z-RED

Can't wait to see the first 1000HP Z, that is going to be cool

supra crazy

iTrader: (22)

Hmm 800 shot of NOS!!!