Replica Parts?
11-09-2006, 02:44 PM
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Originally Posted by x350Zx
Correction: I sell the kits, I don't make them.
-Drew
-Drew
Hypocrit
11-09-2006, 02:47 PM
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Originally Posted by UrbanTacticZ
Then don't modify your car! No one is making anyone work on their cars. You buy an expensive car and you should expect expensive modding. If you are cheap, buy a Honda and mod that. Honda+authentic parts = badass build and cheaper than a Z.
I don't understand how someone can call themselves an automotive enthusiast and buy replica parts for their cars--it's an oxymoron
I don't understand how someone can call themselves an automotive enthusiast and buy replica parts for their cars--it's an oxymoron
i'm just saying that modding is an expensive hobby, and people shouldn't complain about the prices of the real products...
11-09-2006, 02:50 PM
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Originally Posted by noodleman
huh? maybe you're not reading right? I wasn't supporting replicas....
i'm just saying that modding is an expensive hobby, and people shouldn't complain about the prices of the real products...
i'm just saying that modding is an expensive hobby, and people shouldn't complain about the prices of the real products...
This subject gets me heated
11-09-2006, 02:57 PM
#66
Originally Posted by TSG-Z
Its funny that we talk about performance, but the Rota's are just as lite and as strong as the Mugen's or Works. If a replica kit uses quality fiberglass or c/f, how is it subpar in function to the "real" thing! I'm all for the real deal I would never wear a fake pair of Jordans and I think my car doesnt deserve any less, but maybe the manufactors should take a look at their prices! I think they have created the demand for replicas themselves!
Prices are higher for authentic products because of the R & D, production costs, marketing, overhead, shipping costs, taxes, etc that goes in to making such an item available in the US. Molds alone are not that cheap! Educate yourself about what is involved in making body kits and what not before assuming that authentic companies are here just to "overcharge" people with a "ridiculous" price.
Last edited by Rickdogg; 11-09-2006 at 03:00 PM.
11-09-2006, 03:30 PM
#67
Im pretty damn sure making replica car parts is not IP theft. You cant patent a bumper. Basically what your saying is that even when repairing your car you should use dealer only parts and not aftermarket parts that are the exact same and cheaper. Free market economy deal with, or you support communism. When I had my porsche i never used a dealer for parts, i even used parts from diffrent vehicles that were aftermarket but the same damn thing, they were about 200-400$ cheaper usually. Aftermarket timing belt tool was 55$, one from porsche was 1500$. Your a moron to think people should pay prices like that. Factory service manuals were 800$, a copy on cd was 50$. You probably even support microsoft.
11-09-2006, 03:36 PM
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Originally Posted by rocks
Im pretty damn sure making replica car parts is not IP theft. You cant patent a bumper. Basically what your saying is that even when repairing your car you should use dealer only parts and not aftermarket parts that are the exact same and cheaper. Free market economy deal with, or you support communism. When I had my porsche i never used a dealer for parts, i even used parts from diffrent vehicles that were aftermarket but the same damn thing, they were about 200-400$ cheaper usually. Aftermarket timing belt tool was 55$, one from porsche was 1500$. Your a moron to think people should pay prices like that. Factory service manuals were 800$, a copy on cd was 50$. You probably even support microsoft.
Dumb move.
This is exactly the same reason why any joe schmo can't just go and buy a Lambo, Ferrari, or other exotic. I bet you any financial manager would agree with me that you just to buy one of those cars you need to have a net worth of atleast 5-10million dollars.
People who buy cars for a status item to showoff are doomed for financial failure.
11-09-2006, 04:18 PM
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Originally Posted by rocks
Im pretty damn sure making replica car parts is not IP theft. You cant patent a bumper. Basically what your saying is that even when repairing your car you should use dealer only parts and not aftermarket parts that are the exact same and cheaper. Free market economy deal with, or you support communism. When I had my porsche i never used a dealer for parts, i even used parts from diffrent vehicles that were aftermarket but the same damn thing, they were about 200-400$ cheaper usually. Aftermarket timing belt tool was 55$, one from porsche was 1500$. Your a moron to think people should pay prices like that. Factory service manuals were 800$, a copy on cd was 50$. You probably even support microsoft.
Not to mention the lawyer fees that would be involved with patents....which drives up this "crazy" price people are saying even more.
11-09-2006, 04:42 PM
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Wow now I'm a hypocrite, lol. You have no clue as to the margins you're talking about. Anyhow I'm not against authentic kits, I simply stated when you have two kits, one authentic and one replica, if they're both priced similarly most people would just opt for the authentic kit. However when you have a $3k Veilside Kit and a replica one that has good fitment and quality, the average simple-minded person is going to want to save that money and just get the replica. I've had over 4 kits on my Z, from an authentic GReddy to authentic Veilside Version 1, then I opted for a replica nismo then lastly a replica ings. Now my Z is back to stock because I dumped too much $$ into the car for too little.
P.S.
Do you have any idea what the margin is on GReddy or Veilside products?
P.S.
Do you have any idea what the margin is on GReddy or Veilside products?
Originally Posted by UrbanTacticZ
And since you complained about margins on authentic products, how do your margins look? I bet you that your margins are larger on your knockoff parts than on authentic products.
Hypocrit
Hypocrit
11-09-2006, 05:04 PM
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Originally Posted by UrbanTacticZ
Do you think its ethically acceptable for someone to steal someone’s work and resell it?
I bet you that you are letting your wallet compromise your ethics and morals and I bet you that 99% of the people on here who "think" replicas is ok are compromising their morals as well.
What would you do if I came to your house, and steal your car? You would be pissed wouldn't you? What if you made a product for the Z and someone came along a few months later and copied it and resold it as "Taurran Style?"
Come on, think!
I bet you that you are letting your wallet compromise your ethics and morals and I bet you that 99% of the people on here who "think" replicas is ok are compromising their morals as well.
What would you do if I came to your house, and steal your car? You would be pissed wouldn't you? What if you made a product for the Z and someone came along a few months later and copied it and resold it as "Taurran Style?"
Come on, think!
As far as I see it, if an original manufacturer is not willing to make quality products to set them apart from the knockoffs, or willing to constantly improve and provide quality new designs, then they deserve to lose money. This is the the way of capitalism, any thoughts otherwise are just an excuse for being lazy and not staying ahead of the market and defining your own product/brand name.
You *absolutely cannot* equate the purchasing of replica products to stealing a car. That's an irrational statement and you know it. Now, if you equated it to downloading an mp3 from a russian site like allofmp3.com, then I could see it. While questionable on the business end, conseumers are not at fault here because they're simply choosing to buy the product that has the lowest price to quality ratio. Supply and demand, like you said...
Thing is, people are still paying for a product and they get what they're paying for. If that replica product is as good or higher quality than the original for a fraction of the price, then the authentic manufacturer should either refine their manufacturing process and make higher quality parts, or else adjust prices to compete. These companies that come out with a single new design and try to sit on it for years to milk it for everything its worth while using the same molds with declining product output deserve to fail, imo.
Now, if the authentic products are far and above, quality wise, the replicas; then those who really want top quality work will obviously find it money well spent. However, in cases like Veilside, these "authentic" manufacturers put out garbage quality products and expect people to buy it for the name alone.
Once again, I'm not endorsing the purchasing or sales of replica products in any way, just trying to dig into the economics behind it.
Like you said, it's all about supply and demand, and the way a particular firm responds to these economic forces. They can choose to either better their product, lower prices, or do nothing and complain when their product sales drop off. For instance - if Ford chose to do the latter when GM and the other auto companies began making their own automobiles, then you wouldn't see them on the road today. Instead they chose to define their product by consistantly raising their quality standards and providing innovative enhancements to define their brand.
Now, as far as the whole "stealing" of designs, that's what legislation is for. If these companies are so hard on to stop replica manufacturers from making molds of their designs then perhaps they should go through the proper legal lanes to stop it. That's another debate altogether, though.
Well, anyway, welcome to capitalism...
11-09-2006, 05:23 PM
#73
Why do/did you own a Porsche if you can't pay to fix it?
Dumb move.
This is exactly the same reason why any joe schmo can't just go and buy a Lambo, Ferrari, or other exotic. I bet you any financial manager would agree with me that you just to buy one of those cars you need to have a net worth of atleast 5-10million dollars.
People who buy cars for a status item to showoff are doomed for financial failure.
Dumb move.
This is exactly the same reason why any joe schmo can't just go and buy a Lambo, Ferrari, or other exotic. I bet you any financial manager would agree with me that you just to buy one of those cars you need to have a net worth of atleast 5-10million dollars.
People who buy cars for a status item to showoff are doomed for financial failure.
Haha couldn't pay to fix it. I fixed it just fine, i did all the work myself. I put 40,000 miles on it, using aftermarket repair parts. I even solderd a relay from radio shack that cost me 10$ in the a/c control unit instead of buying a new one for 800$. You think im going to pay 200$ an hour to a porsche mechanic your nuts. FYI a porsche is not hard to maintain if you have any common sense when it comes to working on cars. You must be one of those people who takes your car to the dealer for everything including brake pads... Thanks to the internet i can work on pretty much any car, because someone has done it and posted about how to do it.
You also probably supported it when auto manufactures did not want to release service manuals to independant mechanics. They actually had to file a lawsuit at one time to get these, there was a supreme court ruling that they had to be made available.
I guess AMD shouldnt have reverse enginered intel chips and now they are stomping intel into the ground because of a better product. people like you make me laugh.
11-09-2006, 05:26 PM
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Originally Posted by x350Zx
Wow now I'm a hypocrite, lol. You have no clue as to the margins you're talking about. Anyhow I'm not against authentic kits, I simply stated when you have two kits, one authentic and one replica, if they're both priced similarly most people would just opt for the authentic kit. However when you have a $3k Veilside Kit and a replica one that has good fitment and quality, the average simple-minded person is going to want to save that money and just get the replica. I've had over 4 kits on my Z, from an authentic GReddy to authentic Veilside Version 1, then I opted for a replica nismo then lastly a replica ings. Now my Z is back to stock because I dumped too much $$ into the car for too little.
P.S.
Do you have any idea what the margin is on GReddy or Veilside products?
P.S.
Do you have any idea what the margin is on GReddy or Veilside products?
If you honestly thing you can get your wholesale margin as 100% profit, you are mistaken. I would actually like to meet a customer that will buy products at full MSRP. This is where the function of free market economy comes into play where products get priced accordingly. Most dealers are making what, 10% margins on these products at the retail level?
Now tell me that your margins from selling replica is lower than 10%
11-09-2006, 05:29 PM
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Originally Posted by UrbanTacticZ
Sure I have an idea what the POTENTIAL margins are, I sell both GReddy and Veilside.
11-09-2006, 05:40 PM
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Originally Posted by taurran
Then you shouldn't be arguing this topic as it will be impossible for you to have a biased opinion on it (which is already painfully evident). As long as these manufacturers are putting food on your table and bling on your ride then they will do no wrong in your eyes.
POTENTIAL margin is no where near actual margin. A 10% margin on a product is about the industry norm. Some people make more, some people make less. This is especially true for the Internet retailers as they have to deal with pricing pressures from a vast amount of competitors. Keep in mind, even if you get a 10% margin, thats only your gross profit, not your net profit. You have to factor out depreciation, and other variable and fixed costs such as utilities, wages/salaries/comission, rent/mortgage, etc.
A 30% margin on paper looks great, but its not what you will walk away with at the end of the day.
This guy from REVO MOTO is arguging that authentic has a huge margin but he is mistaken, knockoffs have the large margins.
Consumers are being duped for their cash and it is going to the hands of greddy people who will do nothing for the industry in the sense of innovation and product development.
11-09-2006, 05:50 PM
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Originally Posted by rocks
A porsche is not an exotic, unless you have like a 959. Hell you get a 80s 911sc for around 12k$, easy as hell to work on.
Haha couldn't pay to fix it. I fixed it just fine, i did all the work myself. I put 40,000 miles on it, using aftermarket repair parts. I even solderd a relay from radio shack that cost me 10$ in the a/c control unit instead of buying a new one for 800$. You think im going to pay 200$ an hour to a porsche mechanic your nuts. FYI a porsche is not hard to maintain if you have any common sense when it comes to working on cars. You must be one of those people who takes your car to the dealer for everything including brake pads... Thanks to the internet i can work on pretty much any car, because someone has done it and posted about how to do it.
You also probably supported it when auto manufactures did not want to release service manuals to independant mechanics. They actually had to file a lawsuit at one time to get these, there was a supreme court ruling that they had to be made available.
I guess AMD shouldnt have reverse enginered intel chips and now they are stomping intel into the ground because of a better product. people like you make me laugh.
Haha couldn't pay to fix it. I fixed it just fine, i did all the work myself. I put 40,000 miles on it, using aftermarket repair parts. I even solderd a relay from radio shack that cost me 10$ in the a/c control unit instead of buying a new one for 800$. You think im going to pay 200$ an hour to a porsche mechanic your nuts. FYI a porsche is not hard to maintain if you have any common sense when it comes to working on cars. You must be one of those people who takes your car to the dealer for everything including brake pads... Thanks to the internet i can work on pretty much any car, because someone has done it and posted about how to do it.
You also probably supported it when auto manufactures did not want to release service manuals to independant mechanics. They actually had to file a lawsuit at one time to get these, there was a supreme court ruling that they had to be made available.
I guess AMD shouldnt have reverse enginered intel chips and now they are stomping intel into the ground because of a better product. people like you make me laugh.
Last time I checked, this thread was about replica products.
*I do all my own work, I don't go to the dealership unless its a warranty claim or something to that regard. In your last post you stated that you used replica parts to fix your car, that is what I was trying to hammer into my previous reply to you.
*I have no opposition against FSM's being released. I think its great because consumers and mechanics alike can learn more about their vehicle and make their own repairs. This argument IMO has nothing to do with authentic vs replica UNLESS we are talking about pirated material.
*If AMD has stolen Intel's chips as you have made it sound, I am quite sure that AMD would not be in existance. Reverse engineering is apart of the product life cycle and should be accounted for by any organization who is manufacturing products. Reverse engineering, a very touchy subject, has its pros including product improvement, innovation, and downward pricing pressure for consumers and businesses alike.
*You cannot compare reverse engineering to making a 100% copy mold of a original design and reselling it. That is not reverse engineering, that is what we call: THEFT
11-09-2006, 07:54 PM
#78
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Originally Posted by taurran
Please... don't take my last statement as endorsing replica products in any way. Replicas are nothing new, people have been making replica watches, glasses, art, jewelry forever and the businesses that make the authentic pieces are still in business. The only way they can do this is by justifying the extra expense by making a product that is far and above the quality that any replica manufacturer can achieve. They have also stayed in business due to innovation and the marketing of new ideas.
As far as I see it, if an original manufacturer is not willing to make quality products to set them apart from the knockoffs, or willing to constantly improve and provide quality new designs, then they deserve to lose money. This is the the way of capitalism, any thoughts otherwise are just an excuse for being lazy and not staying ahead of the market and defining your own product/brand name.
You *absolutely cannot* equate the purchasing of replica products to stealing a car. That's an irrational statement and you know it. Now, if you equated it to downloading an mp3 from a russian site like allofmp3.com, then I could see it. While questionable on the business end, conseumers are not at fault here because they're simply choosing to buy the product that has the lowest price to quality ratio. Supply and demand, like you said...
Thing is, people are still paying for a product and they get what they're paying for. If that replica product is as good or higher quality than the original for a fraction of the price, then the authentic manufacturer should either refine their manufacturing process and make higher quality parts, or else adjust prices to compete. These companies that come out with a single new design and try to sit on it for years to milk it for everything its worth while using the same molds with declining product output deserve to fail, imo.
Now, if the authentic products are far and above, quality wise, the replicas; then those who really want top quality work will obviously find it money well spent. However, in cases like Veilside, these "authentic" manufacturers put out garbage quality products and expect people to buy it for the name alone.
Once again, I'm not endorsing the purchasing or sales of replica products in any way, just trying to dig into the economics behind it.
Like you said, it's all about supply and demand, and the way a particular firm responds to these economic forces. They can choose to either better their product, lower prices, or do nothing and complain when their product sales drop off. For instance - if Ford chose to do the latter when GM and the other auto companies began making their own automobiles, then you wouldn't see them on the road today. Instead they chose to define their product by consistantly raising their quality standards and providing innovative enhancements to define their brand.
Now, as far as the whole "stealing" of designs, that's what legislation is for. If these companies are so hard on to stop replica manufacturers from making molds of their designs then perhaps they should go through the proper legal lanes to stop it. That's another debate altogether, though.
Well, anyway, welcome to capitalism...
As far as I see it, if an original manufacturer is not willing to make quality products to set them apart from the knockoffs, or willing to constantly improve and provide quality new designs, then they deserve to lose money. This is the the way of capitalism, any thoughts otherwise are just an excuse for being lazy and not staying ahead of the market and defining your own product/brand name.
You *absolutely cannot* equate the purchasing of replica products to stealing a car. That's an irrational statement and you know it. Now, if you equated it to downloading an mp3 from a russian site like allofmp3.com, then I could see it. While questionable on the business end, conseumers are not at fault here because they're simply choosing to buy the product that has the lowest price to quality ratio. Supply and demand, like you said...
Thing is, people are still paying for a product and they get what they're paying for. If that replica product is as good or higher quality than the original for a fraction of the price, then the authentic manufacturer should either refine their manufacturing process and make higher quality parts, or else adjust prices to compete. These companies that come out with a single new design and try to sit on it for years to milk it for everything its worth while using the same molds with declining product output deserve to fail, imo.
Now, if the authentic products are far and above, quality wise, the replicas; then those who really want top quality work will obviously find it money well spent. However, in cases like Veilside, these "authentic" manufacturers put out garbage quality products and expect people to buy it for the name alone.
Once again, I'm not endorsing the purchasing or sales of replica products in any way, just trying to dig into the economics behind it.
Like you said, it's all about supply and demand, and the way a particular firm responds to these economic forces. They can choose to either better their product, lower prices, or do nothing and complain when their product sales drop off. For instance - if Ford chose to do the latter when GM and the other auto companies began making their own automobiles, then you wouldn't see them on the road today. Instead they chose to define their product by consistantly raising their quality standards and providing innovative enhancements to define their brand.
Now, as far as the whole "stealing" of designs, that's what legislation is for. If these companies are so hard on to stop replica manufacturers from making molds of their designs then perhaps they should go through the proper legal lanes to stop it. That's another debate altogether, though.
Well, anyway, welcome to capitalism...
I agree with you completely. Not sure how prashant can equate replicas with stealing a car, man that must be some good whiskey.
Also I'm not saying authentic have huge margins, where in my post did you see that. You initially referred to a retailer's profit, what I meant was the company itself. Trust me Veilside makes $$$$ of kits like a version 3. Anyhow its pointless arguing, we all our enthusiasts, to each his own. At the end of the day we both do what we do because of the passion for modding cars.
11-09-2006, 08:19 PM
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Originally Posted by UrbanTacticZ
I don't understand how someone can call themselves an automotive enthusiast and buy replica parts for their cars--it's an oxymoron
The last time I checked, the term "enthusiast" was defined as someone who displays enthusaism and brand/model loyalty toward a particular model of CAR. Said enthusiasm has nothing to do with whether said person enjoys spending thousands of dollars more than others to get a brand name aftermarket part.
Really, I see your point, but only *to a point*. Obviously the average automotive "enthusiasts" that don't actually profit from part sales are going to see this subject in a different light.
This debate could go on and on and no one will see eye to eye on it. It's best to let people make their own decisions and then learn from their past purchases.