No need to re-flash with APS TT per Peter
No need to re-flash with APS TT per Peter
I PM'd Peter and thought I'd share his response in case anybody else is as confused as I was/am. I thought I needed to eliminate a "third map" in the factory ECU to prevent it from advancing the timing into the danger zone. I also thought reflashing made it possible to fully open the throttle. Not so says Peter of APS.....
QUESTION:Please forgive my ignorance on the function of the Unichip. Does it control timing so it can't be advanced by the ECU?
ANSWER:The Unichip can advance or retard the ignition timing at 17 RPM sites and 12 load sites (in other 204 sites across the entire rpm and loads positions). EG, let's say that the stock ign timing at 5000 RPM is 30 degress BTDC we can either advance or retard ignition timing by up to 15 degrees either way, if you need more ignition adjustment range than that you have a significant problem with the engine, fuel quality, boost level, intercooler performance, etc, etc.
Bruce you need to understand engine management operation thoroughly for me to fully explain the ign timing function/maps of any stock ECU (and I don't have time to do this for you, my apologies) in short the ign timing will continue to alter depending of signals feedback from engine sensors to the stock ECU. In short once we map the ignition timing map via the Unichip computer the timing will always remain safe if the ignition map is developed correctly in the first instance. Bruce the Unichip computer is very sophisticated and can perform many more engine control functions perfectly that many tuners in the US fully underestand. Once the ign timing map is fully developed by a competent tuner with a load based dyno, unles you increase the boost pressure or go to a lower octane fuel you won't need to worry about having safe timing maps ever again.
QUESTION:What about the claim the throttle will only open 80-85% as programmed?
ANSWER:I've never seen this condition though I have read that the 85% throttle condition exists from people on the internet.
Every time I get a twin turbo Z car on the dyno I check full throttle poosition from our scan tools and it always shows 100% throtle position (when I'm at 100% throttle opening) so I am confused why some guys claim this 85 % throttle position exists. Maybe there is a engine operating condition where the throttle will only go to 85% open, though if this is true I have not experienced this to date.
Hope this helps.
Regards
Peter
QUESTION:Please forgive my ignorance on the function of the Unichip. Does it control timing so it can't be advanced by the ECU?
ANSWER:The Unichip can advance or retard the ignition timing at 17 RPM sites and 12 load sites (in other 204 sites across the entire rpm and loads positions). EG, let's say that the stock ign timing at 5000 RPM is 30 degress BTDC we can either advance or retard ignition timing by up to 15 degrees either way, if you need more ignition adjustment range than that you have a significant problem with the engine, fuel quality, boost level, intercooler performance, etc, etc.
Bruce you need to understand engine management operation thoroughly for me to fully explain the ign timing function/maps of any stock ECU (and I don't have time to do this for you, my apologies) in short the ign timing will continue to alter depending of signals feedback from engine sensors to the stock ECU. In short once we map the ignition timing map via the Unichip computer the timing will always remain safe if the ignition map is developed correctly in the first instance. Bruce the Unichip computer is very sophisticated and can perform many more engine control functions perfectly that many tuners in the US fully underestand. Once the ign timing map is fully developed by a competent tuner with a load based dyno, unles you increase the boost pressure or go to a lower octane fuel you won't need to worry about having safe timing maps ever again.
QUESTION:What about the claim the throttle will only open 80-85% as programmed?
ANSWER:I've never seen this condition though I have read that the 85% throttle condition exists from people on the internet.
Every time I get a twin turbo Z car on the dyno I check full throttle poosition from our scan tools and it always shows 100% throtle position (when I'm at 100% throttle opening) so I am confused why some guys claim this 85 % throttle position exists. Maybe there is a engine operating condition where the throttle will only go to 85% open, though if this is true I have not experienced this to date.
Hope this helps.
Regards
Peter
Those dang Americans just don't get it.
Bruce the Unichip computer is very sophisticated and can perform many more engine control functions perfectly that many tuners in the US fully underestand.
Not too arrogant.
Not too arrogant.
I was laughing when I first read it, thinking....how long will it take for Peter before he insults the Bruce guy...."Bruce you need to understand engine management operation thoroughly for me to fully explain the ign timing function/maps of any stock ECU (and I don't have time to do this for you, my apologies) "
Loved it....
Loved it....
The 85% throttle does exist and has been proven. This occurs as the engine nears redline. As for the flash I would most certainly do it. In his statement he thinks the ECU runs a set range of timing thorugh the power band but it doesn't. There ARE different maps for timing and fuel. using his example if the standard map runns 30 degreest BTDC at 5000 rpms and you pull 15 out thats great. But when the ECU switches to the advanced timing map (there are three different maps) it may very well be 35 or 40 degress BTDC (again not real numbers just an example) then the 15 you pull out via piggyback is going to be 20-25 total advance. PM sharif. He has done this and researched this fully.
You can see from Peter's condensending attitude why I considered every FI kit but his when I purchased one. I am so happy I don't have to deal with him. I prefer no customer support.
Bruce is a common name for the Unichip computer in Australia. ;-)
Bruce is a common name for the Unichip computer in Australia. ;-)
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Originally Posted by MIAPLAYA
And yeah if he thinks that unichip tuners are only smart if they don't live in the US he needs to think again. There are plenty of talented Unichip dealers here in the US.
Originally Posted by mrtomcat
In Peters defense he did say that there ARE plenty of US tuners who fully understand the unichip...
BTW Why do I sense alot of negativity toward APS? Can someone link me to a thread on that?
Thanks
From the other board:
Quote:
Originally Posted by APS
True though if you map the ign timing correctly (on all load and rpm sites) on the main timing map then rarely should the stock ECU revert to other detuned/safer timing maps.
Sorry that's not correct Miaplaya. If you retard the ign timing on ther main map (let's say 3 degrees at 2000 rpm full throttle as an example) then the ign timing will be retarded by 3 degrees on all timing maps in the stock Nissan ECU.
I think I understand what you're saying though the main timing map will have the most advanced ignition timing, so my point is if you adjust ignition timing (retard or advance via the Unichip computer) on the main timing map you will always have safe ignition timing under all engine operating conditions.
Peter
Correct if you decrease timing 3 degrees on the main map it is a solid 3 degree decrease across all maps. My point is that when the ECU switchs to the advanced timing map (and yes it is there and you cannot stop the ECU from changing to it no matter what piggyback you use) then the 3 degree decrease at 2000 RPMs lets say its 12 degrees total advance will actually be higher. Ok maybe that was confusing so let me try this
Main map: @2000 RPMs
ECU timing 12 degrees advance Piggyback timing decrease 3 degress Total timing advance is 9 degrees
Advanced timing map: @2000 RPMs
ECU timing 18 degrees advance Piggy back timing decrease 3 degress Total timing advance is now 16 degrees.
See what I mean. This is going to be true of ANY piggyback that doesnt have a reflashed ECU. The reason for the reflash is that they copy the "main" map into the Advanced map spot so that even when the ECU switches to the advanced map it is still running the main map and your tune is still good. There is no other way to do this with a piggyback other then having a reflash. No piggyback in the world even the venerable Unichip that you love can stop the ECU from switching maps. The parameters for the change are beyond me. I'm sure Tadashi might know under what conditions it switches but I dont and I certainly would not want my car that I thought was running 9 degrees total advance to all of a sudden be running 16 degrees total advance. Compound this by the fact that if it changes under high load, full boost, WOT throttle situations your new built motor is going to be TOAST soon. I think you are under the impression that timing in the stock ECU is static. Its not....its is very much so a dynamic system.
PS: You are absolutely incorrect in regards to the timing amounts in the main map. The retarded timing map uses the lowest amount of advance of any of the maps in the ECU. The main timing map carries the standard timing maps as seen on the dyno usually. The advanced timing maps uses maps that all have more advanced timing then in either of the other two maps.
Quote:
Originally Posted by APS
True though if you map the ign timing correctly (on all load and rpm sites) on the main timing map then rarely should the stock ECU revert to other detuned/safer timing maps.
Sorry that's not correct Miaplaya. If you retard the ign timing on ther main map (let's say 3 degrees at 2000 rpm full throttle as an example) then the ign timing will be retarded by 3 degrees on all timing maps in the stock Nissan ECU.
I think I understand what you're saying though the main timing map will have the most advanced ignition timing, so my point is if you adjust ignition timing (retard or advance via the Unichip computer) on the main timing map you will always have safe ignition timing under all engine operating conditions.
Peter
Correct if you decrease timing 3 degrees on the main map it is a solid 3 degree decrease across all maps. My point is that when the ECU switchs to the advanced timing map (and yes it is there and you cannot stop the ECU from changing to it no matter what piggyback you use) then the 3 degree decrease at 2000 RPMs lets say its 12 degrees total advance will actually be higher. Ok maybe that was confusing so let me try this
Main map: @2000 RPMs
ECU timing 12 degrees advance Piggyback timing decrease 3 degress Total timing advance is 9 degrees
Advanced timing map: @2000 RPMs
ECU timing 18 degrees advance Piggy back timing decrease 3 degress Total timing advance is now 16 degrees.
See what I mean. This is going to be true of ANY piggyback that doesnt have a reflashed ECU. The reason for the reflash is that they copy the "main" map into the Advanced map spot so that even when the ECU switches to the advanced map it is still running the main map and your tune is still good. There is no other way to do this with a piggyback other then having a reflash. No piggyback in the world even the venerable Unichip that you love can stop the ECU from switching maps. The parameters for the change are beyond me. I'm sure Tadashi might know under what conditions it switches but I dont and I certainly would not want my car that I thought was running 9 degrees total advance to all of a sudden be running 16 degrees total advance. Compound this by the fact that if it changes under high load, full boost, WOT throttle situations your new built motor is going to be TOAST soon. I think you are under the impression that timing in the stock ECU is static. Its not....its is very much so a dynamic system.
PS: You are absolutely incorrect in regards to the timing amounts in the main map. The retarded timing map uses the lowest amount of advance of any of the maps in the ECU. The main timing map carries the standard timing maps as seen on the dyno usually. The advanced timing maps uses maps that all have more advanced timing then in either of the other two maps.
Originally Posted by brucekgt
I PM'd Peter and thought I'd share his response in case anybody else is as confused as I was/am. I thought I needed to eliminate a "third map" in the factory ECU to prevent it from advancing the timing into the danger zone. I also thought reflashing made it possible to fully open the throttle. Not so says Peter of APS.....
QUESTION:Please forgive my ignorance on the function of the Unichip. Does it control timing so it can't be advanced by the ECU?
ANSWER:The Unichip can advance or retard the ignition timing at 17 RPM sites and 12 load sites (in other 204 sites across the entire rpm and loads positions). EG, let's say that the stock ign timing at 5000 RPM is 30 degress BTDC we can either advance or retard ignition timing by up to 15 degrees either way, if you need more ignition adjustment range than that you have a significant problem with the engine, fuel quality, boost level, intercooler performance, etc, etc.
Bruce you need to understand engine management operation thoroughly for me to fully explain the ign timing function/maps of any stock ECU (and I don't have time to do this for you, my apologies) in short the ign timing will continue to alter depending of signals feedback from engine sensors to the stock ECU. In short once we map the ignition timing map via the Unichip computer the timing will always remain safe if the ignition map is developed correctly in the first instance. Bruce the Unichip computer is very sophisticated and can perform many more engine control functions perfectly that many tuners in the US fully underestand. Once the ign timing map is fully developed by a competent tuner with a load based dyno, unles you increase the boost pressure or go to a lower octane fuel you won't need to worry about having safe timing maps ever again.
QUESTION:What about the claim the throttle will only open 80-85% as programmed?
ANSWER:I've never seen this condition though I have read that the 85% throttle condition exists from people on the internet.
Every time I get a twin turbo Z car on the dyno I check full throttle poosition from our scan tools and it always shows 100% throtle position (when I'm at 100% throttle opening) so I am confused why some guys claim this 85 % throttle position exists. Maybe there is a engine operating condition where the throttle will only go to 85% open, though if this is true I have not experienced this to date.
Hope this helps.
Regards
Peter
QUESTION:Please forgive my ignorance on the function of the Unichip. Does it control timing so it can't be advanced by the ECU?
ANSWER:The Unichip can advance or retard the ignition timing at 17 RPM sites and 12 load sites (in other 204 sites across the entire rpm and loads positions). EG, let's say that the stock ign timing at 5000 RPM is 30 degress BTDC we can either advance or retard ignition timing by up to 15 degrees either way, if you need more ignition adjustment range than that you have a significant problem with the engine, fuel quality, boost level, intercooler performance, etc, etc.
Bruce you need to understand engine management operation thoroughly for me to fully explain the ign timing function/maps of any stock ECU (and I don't have time to do this for you, my apologies) in short the ign timing will continue to alter depending of signals feedback from engine sensors to the stock ECU. In short once we map the ignition timing map via the Unichip computer the timing will always remain safe if the ignition map is developed correctly in the first instance. Bruce the Unichip computer is very sophisticated and can perform many more engine control functions perfectly that many tuners in the US fully underestand. Once the ign timing map is fully developed by a competent tuner with a load based dyno, unles you increase the boost pressure or go to a lower octane fuel you won't need to worry about having safe timing maps ever again.
QUESTION:What about the claim the throttle will only open 80-85% as programmed?
ANSWER:I've never seen this condition though I have read that the 85% throttle condition exists from people on the internet.
Every time I get a twin turbo Z car on the dyno I check full throttle poosition from our scan tools and it always shows 100% throtle position (when I'm at 100% throttle opening) so I am confused why some guys claim this 85 % throttle position exists. Maybe there is a engine operating condition where the throttle will only go to 85% open, though if this is true I have not experienced this to date.
Hope this helps.
Regards
Peter
Of course the Unichip can "de-time" in order to provide "worst case" safety , if the 3rd agressive map is selected. However; this is a sub-optimal tune , since when the ECM is generally tooling about on the 2nd map you are pulling more timing at high RPM than necessary given the target octane.
Last edited by G3po; Jul 12, 2005 at 09:08 AM.
Originally Posted by G3po
Bruce in gneral I agree with Peter, but in this case someione is missoing the point of "locking down the upper 2 maps. The Unichip has no clue of and when the ECM flips between the upper two maps (ther is no logic stae weer ethe ECU can go , hey the timing just jumped in a peicwise linear fashion , I'd better compensate". Of course the Unichip can "de-time" in order to provide "worst case" safety , if for the 3rd agreesive map is selected. However; this is a sub-optimal tune , since when the ECM is gnerally tolling about on the 2nd map you are pulling more timing at high RPM than necessary.
Originally Posted by rxtrom
Thats how I read it.
BTW Why do I sense alot of negativity toward APS? Can someone link me to a thread on that?
Thanks
BTW Why do I sense alot of negativity toward APS? Can someone link me to a thread on that?
Thanks
Great Product (I bought one myself...), horrible company (I hope nothing will EVER go wrong with my kit
)
Brian and others ..Regardless of the technical truth behind Unichip and the ECM programming....if one intends to reflash to raise the rev limiter and/or the speed limiter, locking down the upper two maps and tuning the Piggyback after the fact is not going to cause harm. If anything, it helps guarantee repeatability. Now on the downside, the cost of a re-flash is far more than it should be IMO.
Originally Posted by G3po
Brian and others ..Regardless of the technical truth behind Unichip and the ECM programming....if one intends to reflash to raise the rev limiter and/or the speed limiter, locking down the upper two maps and tuning the Piggyback after the fact is not going to cause harm. If anything, it helps guarantee repeatability. Now on the downside, the cost of a re-flash is far more than it should be IMO.
Some of Peters' answers are a little glib, but he's in marketing! He's always been responsive to my questions, and he's even admitted they didn't anticipate the number of Z-owners that were going to highly modify their engines.(remember my problems with wastegate actuators?) I think he said they "got caught with their pants down".
I never thought his answers were condescending because he knows my knowledge level is pretty basic. Aren't the "important" components in the APS kit all made in the USA? As a matter of fact, I think Uni-Chip may be headquartered here in Portland?
Back to the topic at hand: I like the concept of "locking-in" the mapping and basing the Unichip tune on that. It intuitively makes sense to limit the number of variables the Unichip has to adjust for.
I'm in Oregon, and not only do we NOT have an APS tuner in the area, I doubt if anyone local is equipped to reflash. I assume my choices are to send the ECU to Technosquare or make the drive South. If I drive to technosquare in Torrance, I could have one of the California APS tuners do my tuning, too. Is anybody in NorCal set up to do both?
I never thought his answers were condescending because he knows my knowledge level is pretty basic. Aren't the "important" components in the APS kit all made in the USA? As a matter of fact, I think Uni-Chip may be headquartered here in Portland?
Back to the topic at hand: I like the concept of "locking-in" the mapping and basing the Unichip tune on that. It intuitively makes sense to limit the number of variables the Unichip has to adjust for.
I'm in Oregon, and not only do we NOT have an APS tuner in the area, I doubt if anyone local is equipped to reflash. I assume my choices are to send the ECU to Technosquare or make the drive South. If I drive to technosquare in Torrance, I could have one of the California APS tuners do my tuning, too. Is anybody in NorCal set up to do both?
does anyone have any objective proof of the '3rd map'? other than someone selling something (TS), and miaplaya who seems (sorry this is going to be offensive) like he's on TS's / TN's payroll.