give me which ST to buy?
Originally Posted by Zilvia
it all depends on the peson ziv............since he only wants 360whp and doesnt want to tune it for more hp other than maybe 400whp i say APS........................
If you want over 400 whp, I would think the person would be much more inclined to choose a TT setup...opening a completely different can of worms. A ST 400 whp makes for a great car, but when you start getting near 450, 500+ twins are a better choice.
I have driven/own a TT Z at comparable HP to what the APS ST put out and I was pleasantly surprised at the response of the ST turbo setup
Originally Posted by Zivman
The sad thing is, I posted up about a dozen reasons I wouldn't recommend the TN kit. Not even mentioning anything about detonation or blown motors related to the kit and people will still question my reasoning.
Edit: I can't wait to APS builds their SS 321 turbo manfiolds for the ST kit...are you going to switch your opinion then like a good sheep?
Originally Posted by MIAPLAYA
People question your reasoning because although you claim to not defend or act biased to either kit you still sound like a sheeple. I'll post flow numbers on the Spearco core Tuesday when I'm home... I'm glad you can look at instructions and determine build quality...you must be the greatest engineer ever to walk the planet...I especially loved your post in other forum stating that cast iron is better then SS321 manifolds..lol...what planet are you from?
i would not want turbos (on a TT setup) hanging off a SS manifold. SS has been known to crack under heat/cooling conditions. This isn't a full out race car that is being torn down every month and cast is going to have better longetivty without fear of cracking. That is not to say that SS cannot be used, just my preference.
Yes, I can look at pics/install and compare quality. I merely referenced the FMIC mounting brackets, which is VERY easy to see APS quality is better. I said I hadn't seen the the piping in person and did state that I would only bet the APS was of better quality - not stating it as a fact.
It is exactly what I stated before:
The sad thing is, I posted up about a dozen reasons I wouldn't recommend the TN kit. Not even mentioning anything about detonation or blown motors related to the kit and people will still question my reasoning. You shot holes in maybe one or two of my reasons, but what about the other 10?
Keep in mind, I only need one reason to look passed TN - I'll use placement of turbo as that reason, so go ahead and discredit every other reason I stated
Originally Posted by MIAPLAYA
Edit: I can't wait to APS builds their SS 321 turbo manfiolds for the ST kit...are you going to switch your opinion then like a good sheep?
Like I also stated, it was my preference for a cast vs a SS manifold, not that a SS couldn't work.
Besides, makes no difference to me, I run a TT setup and you are all free to make your own decision on a setup.
Your statement includes basically your opinion of exhaust pipe routing, your decision that the APS intercooler is better just because it looks nicer to you lol....cause looks determine performance in your book apparentely. The retention of the MAF housing was done with good reason. That was to ensure the pad area was not changed so that MAF resolution did not change. But I'm sure you knew that. So far the 3" downpipe has not only NOT inhibited performance but conversely the Turbonetics cars are making the same or more power at less boost pressure then the APS ST kits. Again your entier post was your opinion of what youthink are problems but its clear you have zero idea what you're talking about. FYI an equal length and properly braced SS manifold is FAR superior and would last just as long as a cast iron manifold AND would provide FAR better flow and quicker boost threshold times. Can you give me exact data as to why having the turbo where it is happens to be a problem? When you have some go ahead and ask the Supra, Skyline, and every other 4 cylinder high hp car why they are able to run their turbo in the bay and make great power with no change in reliability...So basically you took your sheeple opinions of another kit and came up with what you think are issues when in all honesty you have zero idea what your talking about.
So far the 3" downpipe has not only NOT inhibited performance but conversely the Turbonetics cars are making the same or more power at less boost pressure then the APS ST kits. Again your entier post was your opinion of what youthink are problems but its clear you have zero idea what you're talking about. FYI an equal length and properly braced SS manifold is FAR superior and would last just as long as a cast iron manifold AND would provide FAR better flow and quicker boost threshold times. Can you give me exact data as to why having the turbo where it is happens to be a problem? When you have some go ahead and ask the Supra, Skyline, and every other 4 cylinder high hp car why they are able to run their turbo in the bay and make great power with no change in reliability...So basically you took your sheeple opinions of another kit and came up with what you think are issues when in all honesty you have zero idea what your talking about.
Originally Posted by MIAPLAYA
Your statement includes basically your opinion of exhaust pipe routing, your decision that the APS intercooler is better just because it looks nicer to you lol....cause looks determine performance in your book apparentely.
So you are telling me that placing the turbo where the intake is, and routing exhaust piping in the cramped spacing between the motor and frame rail will not add heat to the engine bay? Also have potential issues with coolant and AC hoses that are routed nearby? And also the hinder the ability to upgrade to a larger radiator?
The retention of the MAF housing was done with good reason. That was to ensure the pad area was not changed so that MAF resolution did not change. But I'm sure you knew that.
I did know this as TN attempts to use a reflash for EMS. Changing the size of the maf housing would make that even more dangerous than trusting the reflash already was
So far the 3" downpipe has not only NOT inhibited performance but conversely the Turbonetics cars are making the same or more power at less boost pressure then the APS ST kits.
I'll give you a wash on this, as it doesn't seem 3" piping is limiting at near 400whp. If you make attempts for higher HP, it probably will. I prefer a 3.5" DP into an exhaust specifically disigned for use with the kit
Again your entier post was your opinion of what youthink are problems but its clear you have zero idea what you're talking about.
I would think it is obvious I have a decent knowledge of both kits. For you to say i have zero idea what I am talking about is just not true. I think your past reputation speaks for itself. You will argue and fight it out with anyone that has a differing opinion than you. The guys at motoring have no time for you and definitely make their thoughts of you clear. I don't have to name call or get pissed off as I think my posts about the topic at hand speak for themselves
FYI an equal length and properly braced SS manifold is FAR superior and would last just as long as a cast iron manifold AND would provide FAR better flow and quicker boost threshold times.
yes, equal length mans can provide better spools and be made to last, but AGAIN, it is my preference for cast for the reasons I stated before - if you don't agree, fine. Regardless, it has no bearing on what is being discussed in this thread
Can you give me exact data as to why having the turbo where it is happens to be a problem?
I stated a few in my post above, added heat, forced to run exhaust piping in cramped spaces next to critical coolant and AC lines. Limiting the ability to run an upgraded radiator
When you have some go ahead and ask the Supra, Skyline, and every other 4 cylinder high hp car why they are able to run their turbo in the bay and make great power with no change in reliability...So basically you took your sheeple opinions of another kit and came up with what you think are issues when in all honesty you have zero idea what your talking about.
So you are telling me that placing the turbo where the intake is, and routing exhaust piping in the cramped spacing between the motor and frame rail will not add heat to the engine bay? Also have potential issues with coolant and AC hoses that are routed nearby? And also the hinder the ability to upgrade to a larger radiator?
The retention of the MAF housing was done with good reason. That was to ensure the pad area was not changed so that MAF resolution did not change. But I'm sure you knew that.
I did know this as TN attempts to use a reflash for EMS. Changing the size of the maf housing would make that even more dangerous than trusting the reflash already was
So far the 3" downpipe has not only NOT inhibited performance but conversely the Turbonetics cars are making the same or more power at less boost pressure then the APS ST kits.
I'll give you a wash on this, as it doesn't seem 3" piping is limiting at near 400whp. If you make attempts for higher HP, it probably will. I prefer a 3.5" DP into an exhaust specifically disigned for use with the kit
Again your entier post was your opinion of what youthink are problems but its clear you have zero idea what you're talking about.
I would think it is obvious I have a decent knowledge of both kits. For you to say i have zero idea what I am talking about is just not true. I think your past reputation speaks for itself. You will argue and fight it out with anyone that has a differing opinion than you. The guys at motoring have no time for you and definitely make their thoughts of you clear. I don't have to name call or get pissed off as I think my posts about the topic at hand speak for themselves
FYI an equal length and properly braced SS manifold is FAR superior and would last just as long as a cast iron manifold AND would provide FAR better flow and quicker boost threshold times.
yes, equal length mans can provide better spools and be made to last, but AGAIN, it is my preference for cast for the reasons I stated before - if you don't agree, fine. Regardless, it has no bearing on what is being discussed in this thread
Can you give me exact data as to why having the turbo where it is happens to be a problem?
I stated a few in my post above, added heat, forced to run exhaust piping in cramped spaces next to critical coolant and AC lines. Limiting the ability to run an upgraded radiator
When you have some go ahead and ask the Supra, Skyline, and every other 4 cylinder high hp car why they are able to run their turbo in the bay and make great power with no change in reliability...So basically you took your sheeple opinions of another kit and came up with what you think are issues when in all honesty you have zero idea what your talking about.
I am hating on noone.
merry christmas
i actually like the turbo in the bay, i dont see a problem with it, but one thing i thought about the other day when i saw those pics of amycrofts car after the wreck, a TN setup would have been destroyed, being right there by the headlight, of course thats similar to honda setups, being right there behind the radiator, but supras have theirs way back intake, so do other nissans.
those TNs are making a little more power at the same levels, BUT, they are also blowing up. sorry MIA i had to say it, i rarely get in on these discussions.
...actually a GRD tuned APS ST made 450hp, 450tq. so, it isnt fair to say the TNs make the same, safe power as APS, because they are tunable. now i do agree that TN setups running the UTEC are putting down great numbers too.
both kits are nice, both kits do well, both kits have problems, both kits have followers. but the only time ive seen an APS car and a TN car run together on the same track, side by side, the APS car won. both cars were having issues tho. hehe, lets see it i get any comments from that.
those TNs are making a little more power at the same levels, BUT, they are also blowing up. sorry MIA i had to say it, i rarely get in on these discussions.
...actually a GRD tuned APS ST made 450hp, 450tq. so, it isnt fair to say the TNs make the same, safe power as APS, because they are tunable. now i do agree that TN setups running the UTEC are putting down great numbers too.
both kits are nice, both kits do well, both kits have problems, both kits have followers. but the only time ive seen an APS car and a TN car run together on the same track, side by side, the APS car won. both cars were having issues tho. hehe, lets see it i get any comments from that.
Originally Posted by tig488
i actually like the turbo in the bay, i dont see a problem with it, but one thing i thought about the other day when i saw those pics of amycrofts car after the wreck, a TN setup would have been destroyed, being right there by the headlight, of course thats similar to honda setups, being right there behind the radiator, but supras have theirs way back intake, so do other nissans.
those TNs are making a little more power at the same levels, BUT, they are also blowing up. sorry MIA i had to say it, i rarely get in on these discussions.
...actually a GRD tuned APS ST made 450hp, 450tq. so, it isnt fair to say the TNs make the same, safe power as APS, because they are tunable. now i do agree that TN setups running the UTEC are putting down great numbers too.
both kits are nice, both kits do well, both kits have problems, both kits have followers. but the only time ive seen an APS car and a TN car run together on the same track, side by side, the APS car won. both cars were having issues tho. hehe, lets see it i get any comments from that.
those TNs are making a little more power at the same levels, BUT, they are also blowing up. sorry MIA i had to say it, i rarely get in on these discussions.
...actually a GRD tuned APS ST made 450hp, 450tq. so, it isnt fair to say the TNs make the same, safe power as APS, because they are tunable. now i do agree that TN setups running the UTEC are putting down great numbers too.
both kits are nice, both kits do well, both kits have problems, both kits have followers. but the only time ive seen an APS car and a TN car run together on the same track, side by side, the APS car won. both cars were having issues tho. hehe, lets see it i get any comments from that.
smoking due to a bad check valve that has been rememdied and boost tapering resulting from a restrictive exhasut clearly pale in comparison to the detonation and blown motors that TN throws out
Originally Posted by tig488
i actually like the turbo in the bay, i dont see a problem with it, but one thing i thought about the other day when i saw those pics of amycrofts car after the wreck, a TN setup would have been destroyed, being right there by the headlight, of course thats similar to honda setups, being right there behind the radiator, but supras have theirs way back intake, so do other nissans.
those TNs are making a little more power at the same levels, BUT, they are also blowing up. sorry MIA i had to say it, i rarely get in on these discussions.
...actually a GRD tuned APS ST made 450hp, 450tq. so, it isnt fair to say the TNs make the same, safe power as APS, because they are tunable. now i do agree that TN setups running the UTEC are putting down great numbers too.
both kits are nice, both kits do well, both kits have problems, both kits have followers. but the only time ive seen an APS car and a TN car run together on the same track, side by side, the APS car won. both cars were having issues tho. hehe, lets see it i get any comments from that.
those TNs are making a little more power at the same levels, BUT, they are also blowing up. sorry MIA i had to say it, i rarely get in on these discussions.
...actually a GRD tuned APS ST made 450hp, 450tq. so, it isnt fair to say the TNs make the same, safe power as APS, because they are tunable. now i do agree that TN setups running the UTEC are putting down great numbers too.
both kits are nice, both kits do well, both kits have problems, both kits have followers. but the only time ive seen an APS car and a TN car run together on the same track, side by side, the APS car won. both cars were having issues tho. hehe, lets see it i get any comments from that.
THEN YOU ALWAYS HAVE SOME ONE NEGATIVE AND JUST WANTS TO PROVE THERE POINT.
Last edited by Gumpdriver; Dec 25, 2005 at 09:39 AM.
Originally Posted by Zivman
I have a local that was really looking into getting the TN and we have had many talks about the two kits. As a result, I have done a lot of reading on the forums and went through the install instructions of the TN setup NUMEROUS times.
I have installed two separate APS turbo setups. One TT, one ST. NOTHING on the APS setups has made me even consider another setup. That said, after reading about the TN setup and knowing the setup via the install instructions, I have no reason to choose another kit let alone a TN setup.
Let's just say, that the prices were the same (assuming you buy a tunable EMS, 440 injectors, fuel pump, oil pan, return style fuel setup, etc for the TN)
I still would not choose the TN. I don't like the placement of the turbo, the reuse of the maf housing, the routing of the exhaust piping, 3" DP on the TN vs 3.5" APS ST, and the APS FMIC >TN FMIC (even if it is just in looks alone). Alll those are reasons for me to look STRAIGHT passed the TN setup.
I can compare things like the FMIC mounting brackets or the relocation of the PS cooler and know APS is much more refined, complete, and higher quality.
I have not seen the exhaust or IC/intake piping on the TN first hand, but I am willing to bet the quality on the APS exceeds that of the TN as well.
Just because a lot of people bought the kit, doesn't mean anything. I think A LOT of people are not quite as informed about the kits, nor taken as much time researching them as I have. Add to that they were mislead into believing the TN was a complete 'turn key' FI solution....which we all come to know it isn't.
From the reading I have done, install on the two kits is very comparable:
10-14 hrs on the TN
12-18 hrs on the APS
You can take that as you may, really I have no stake in any companies ST nor do I feel I need to defend either side because I own neither ST setup. I run the APS TT setup, which is a much different kit than either.
I have installed two separate APS turbo setups. One TT, one ST. NOTHING on the APS setups has made me even consider another setup. That said, after reading about the TN setup and knowing the setup via the install instructions, I have no reason to choose another kit let alone a TN setup.
Let's just say, that the prices were the same (assuming you buy a tunable EMS, 440 injectors, fuel pump, oil pan, return style fuel setup, etc for the TN)
I still would not choose the TN. I don't like the placement of the turbo, the reuse of the maf housing, the routing of the exhaust piping, 3" DP on the TN vs 3.5" APS ST, and the APS FMIC >TN FMIC (even if it is just in looks alone). Alll those are reasons for me to look STRAIGHT passed the TN setup.
I can compare things like the FMIC mounting brackets or the relocation of the PS cooler and know APS is much more refined, complete, and higher quality.
I have not seen the exhaust or IC/intake piping on the TN first hand, but I am willing to bet the quality on the APS exceeds that of the TN as well.
Just because a lot of people bought the kit, doesn't mean anything. I think A LOT of people are not quite as informed about the kits, nor taken as much time researching them as I have. Add to that they were mislead into believing the TN was a complete 'turn key' FI solution....which we all come to know it isn't.
From the reading I have done, install on the two kits is very comparable:
10-14 hrs on the TN
12-18 hrs on the APS
You can take that as you may, really I have no stake in any companies ST nor do I feel I need to defend either side because I own neither ST setup. I run the APS TT setup, which is a much different kit than either.
I guess it is a little touchy to me since ever since this kit was first being discussed it became such a issue on who is better and why. It has been what like almost a year of this.
Which is fine, but when it started to get to a point where it is APS owners/supporters Vs. Turbonetics owner/supporters... Where people are just knocking on each other like children... Then insults, and what not.
Honestly this is the first site where I have seen this, usually people just enjoy diversity amoung the people...
I don't want to imagine if everyone had the same exact mods, set-ups, etc.
So why don't we just focus on good and bad experiences while leaving the pissing contests out.
And I am really just saying that in general not directed towards you Zivman.
Originally Posted by Zivman
You want to talk issues?
smoking due to a bad check valve that has been rememdied and boost tapering resulting from a restrictive exhasut clearly pale in comparison to the detonation and blown motors that TN throws out
smoking due to a bad check valve that has been rememdied and boost tapering resulting from a restrictive exhasut clearly pale in comparison to the detonation and blown motors that TN throws out
+1 million on this.....APS ST owners should not be having any issues after the check valve issue..which has been remedied
Here's a valid point that everyone is leaving out when discussing the higher hp potential of each kit:
Sure, you can throw on a piggyback and return fuel system to make both kits equal, but is here enough room to use larger turbos with both kits if you built the engine later? Mia says there's room to upgrade the turbo on the TN kit, but from what I've read about the APS, it seems as though it may be too tight.
Sure, you can throw on a piggyback and return fuel system to make both kits equal, but is here enough room to use larger turbos with both kits if you built the engine later? Mia says there's room to upgrade the turbo on the TN kit, but from what I've read about the APS, it seems as though it may be too tight.
Originally Posted by failsafe306
Here's a valid point that everyone is leaving out when discussing the higher hp potential of each kit:
Sure, you can throw on a piggyback and return fuel system to make both kits equal, but is here enough room to use larger turbos with both kits if you built the engine later? Mia says there's room to upgrade the turbo on the TN kit, but from what I've read about the APS, it seems as though it may be too tight.
Sure, you can throw on a piggyback and return fuel system to make both kits equal, but is here enough room to use larger turbos with both kits if you built the engine later? Mia says there's room to upgrade the turbo on the TN kit, but from what I've read about the APS, it seems as though it may be too tight.
^ladies and gents i believe we have a door stopper here!
so do you (Zivman) not think that High HP can be made with a single Turbo then
so tell us ziv would your TT choice for hight Hp be APS.............
so do you (Zivman) not think that High HP can be made with a single Turbo then
so tell us ziv would your TT choice for hight Hp be APS.............
Last edited by Zilvia; Dec 25, 2005 at 01:06 PM.
you can always slap a larger compressor wheel on the single turbo and mill the housing out if necessary, and "rock out with your **** out"
imagine a built motor with something like a gt42 compressor wheel pushing about 25 psi, 800hp, here i come!
but theoretically that can be done with both kits. so again, a stale mate.
imagine a built motor with something like a gt42 compressor wheel pushing about 25 psi, 800hp, here i come!
but theoretically that can be done with both kits. so again, a stale mate.
People talking about TN blowing up like Greddy kiits were doing over 2 years ago. Ive only heard of 2 guys(in over 150 kits sold iirc) and it was because of owner negligence. Soooo many uneducated TN haters in this thread Im not gonna even get started, MIA seems to have it under control.