Tore down my 575rwhp engine for a little peek
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CJ Motorsports
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From: West Chicago, IL
Tore down my 575rwhp engine for a little peek
Last year I made 575rwhp at 14 psi thru a 2.25 borla exhaust and stock intake manifold. I retired the car for the year when I was having problems that continued to get worse.
Once I turned it up to 14psi I was having cooling system issues. Those issues being coolant filling up the overflow until it came out. It was easy for me to moniter, as I have a vented hood and it would go straight out the driver side vent onto my windshield.
Occasional under severe duty my car would spontaneously loose about 100HP and then blast coolant pretty bad. After letting it cool by driving normal it would clear up.
Then the car started to burn oil.
My theory was that I was boiling coolant in the back of the block causing localized overheating and over expansion of the pistons causing them to attempt to seize in the cylinders causing the power loss, and eventually chewed up rings and burning oil.
Well, as we as human tend to, I was thinking way too deep into it and should have just torn it down right away rather then picking my brain for months and thinking about it.
My headgaskets were annihilated. My pistons/rings and bores are fine, this engine was not blown... just the headgaskets. I must have a smoked a turbo causing the oil smoke-screen.
My setup was AEBS Sleeves (Without the copper ring recommended by AEBS just because my machinst and I decided not to use it). stock headgaskets, ARP headstuds. The sleeves did not sink, they are exactly where they started. That doesnt mean that the sleeves could not have contributed to the problems in a more complex way, because there are a few other ways they could have caused the problem.
Another interesting find...
When my Arias pistons first came to me, the stock bore ones, I noticed that they had no valve reliefs. I called and told them this and they told me that the dish is low enough not to need it like the stock ones. I said that the outer lip of the piston is just as high as stock and that is where the valves would hit if they were going to... they told me to not worry about it. I told them that even tho I have spun the engine assemebled and they cleared, that doesnt mean they will not hit when the valve timing starts changing around when the engine is running.
Sure enough, my intake valves had been slightly running into the piston. Do not use pistons that do not have valve reliefs, I cant believe I even used these things, especially with cams and a 1mm oversize valve.
My valves do not appear to be bent, but I will know for sure soon. It will be interesting for sure if I was making this power with bent intake valves.
When I come up with a plan of attack to keep my headgaskets from blowing out, ill let you guys know.
Once I turned it up to 14psi I was having cooling system issues. Those issues being coolant filling up the overflow until it came out. It was easy for me to moniter, as I have a vented hood and it would go straight out the driver side vent onto my windshield.
Occasional under severe duty my car would spontaneously loose about 100HP and then blast coolant pretty bad. After letting it cool by driving normal it would clear up.
Then the car started to burn oil.
My theory was that I was boiling coolant in the back of the block causing localized overheating and over expansion of the pistons causing them to attempt to seize in the cylinders causing the power loss, and eventually chewed up rings and burning oil.
Well, as we as human tend to, I was thinking way too deep into it and should have just torn it down right away rather then picking my brain for months and thinking about it.
My headgaskets were annihilated. My pistons/rings and bores are fine, this engine was not blown... just the headgaskets. I must have a smoked a turbo causing the oil smoke-screen.
My setup was AEBS Sleeves (Without the copper ring recommended by AEBS just because my machinst and I decided not to use it). stock headgaskets, ARP headstuds. The sleeves did not sink, they are exactly where they started. That doesnt mean that the sleeves could not have contributed to the problems in a more complex way, because there are a few other ways they could have caused the problem.
Another interesting find...
When my Arias pistons first came to me, the stock bore ones, I noticed that they had no valve reliefs. I called and told them this and they told me that the dish is low enough not to need it like the stock ones. I said that the outer lip of the piston is just as high as stock and that is where the valves would hit if they were going to... they told me to not worry about it. I told them that even tho I have spun the engine assemebled and they cleared, that doesnt mean they will not hit when the valve timing starts changing around when the engine is running.
Sure enough, my intake valves had been slightly running into the piston. Do not use pistons that do not have valve reliefs, I cant believe I even used these things, especially with cams and a 1mm oversize valve.
My valves do not appear to be bent, but I will know for sure soon. It will be interesting for sure if I was making this power with bent intake valves.
When I come up with a plan of attack to keep my headgaskets from blowing out, ill let you guys know.
Thread Starter
CJ Motorsports
iTrader: (21)
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 3,997
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From: West Chicago, IL
I did just think of one thing about the piston/valve clearance problem.
The damage to the pistons appears to be somewhat fresh. I will know for sure when the machinist looks at it... but they are somewhat clean... which leads me to want to think that they were recent and not there the entire time.
The second to last time I drove the car I did one of those great accidental downshifts in a race. I went from 3rd into 2nd while running my buddies mustang. My carbon/carbon clutch wasnt gonna give... and I was on my drag radials so they were not going to give either. The highest I saw on the needle was 9000rpm. It probably went higher.
It could have been valve float (I have full ferrea setup, but not the dual springs, just single.. so I shouldnt be going to 9000) or some wierd *** valve timing thing... I dont know what the stock ECU is trying to do with the timing at 9000rpm.
Heres where its wierd now. When I did that... obviously, the first thing I did was put in the clutch again. I was coasting down the highway and I looked at all my gauges. Oil pressure is there, ok good I didnt throw anything out the side of the block.... engine was idleing perfect.. ok cool.
So I put it back into gear and give it light throttle so I can go catch up and race the mustang again. BOOM my car makes the loudest backfire I ever heard from a car. My friends behind me said it blew 6' flames. I was like WTF... coasting again looking at gauges everything normal. Touch the gas pedal again BOOM wtf...
I pull over on the side of the road and let the car idle to cool down before I shut it off. 5 minutes later I hop in and drive off and everything is 100% normal. wtf?? I wonder if the cam timing was doing something very wierd after that overrev. I have no idea what that was to be honest. But my FCON certainly doesnt care that I reved to 9000... and the cam timing is the only thing the stock ECU can control that would make the engine run wierd like that.
Either way, the valves wouldn't have hit if there was some reliefs there.
It might be time to get rid of the variable cam timing.
The damage to the pistons appears to be somewhat fresh. I will know for sure when the machinist looks at it... but they are somewhat clean... which leads me to want to think that they were recent and not there the entire time.
The second to last time I drove the car I did one of those great accidental downshifts in a race. I went from 3rd into 2nd while running my buddies mustang. My carbon/carbon clutch wasnt gonna give... and I was on my drag radials so they were not going to give either. The highest I saw on the needle was 9000rpm. It probably went higher.
It could have been valve float (I have full ferrea setup, but not the dual springs, just single.. so I shouldnt be going to 9000) or some wierd *** valve timing thing... I dont know what the stock ECU is trying to do with the timing at 9000rpm.
Heres where its wierd now. When I did that... obviously, the first thing I did was put in the clutch again. I was coasting down the highway and I looked at all my gauges. Oil pressure is there, ok good I didnt throw anything out the side of the block.... engine was idleing perfect.. ok cool.
So I put it back into gear and give it light throttle so I can go catch up and race the mustang again. BOOM my car makes the loudest backfire I ever heard from a car. My friends behind me said it blew 6' flames. I was like WTF... coasting again looking at gauges everything normal. Touch the gas pedal again BOOM wtf...
I pull over on the side of the road and let the car idle to cool down before I shut it off. 5 minutes later I hop in and drive off and everything is 100% normal. wtf?? I wonder if the cam timing was doing something very wierd after that overrev. I have no idea what that was to be honest. But my FCON certainly doesnt care that I reved to 9000... and the cam timing is the only thing the stock ECU can control that would make the engine run wierd like that.
Either way, the valves wouldn't have hit if there was some reliefs there.
It might be time to get rid of the variable cam timing.
Originally Posted by phunk
Last year I made 575rwhp at 14 psi thru a 2.25 borla exhaust and stock intake manifold. I retired the car for the year when I was having problems that continued to get worse.
Once I turned it up to 14psi I was having cooling system issues. Those issues being coolant filling up the overflow until it came out. It was easy for me to moniter, as I have a vented hood and it would go straight out the driver side vent onto my windshield.
Occasional under severe duty my car would spontaneously loose about 100HP and then blast coolant pretty bad. After letting it cool by driving normal it would clear up.
Then the car started to burn oil.
My theory was that I was boiling coolant in the back of the block causing localized overheating and over expansion of the pistons causing them to attempt to seize in the cylinders causing the power loss, and eventually chewed up rings and burning oil.
Well, as we as human tend to, I was thinking way too deep into it and should have just torn it down right away rather then picking my brain for months and thinking about it.
My headgaskets were annihilated. My pistons/rings and bores are fine, this engine was not blown... just the headgaskets. I must have a smoked a turbo causing the oil smoke-screen.
My setup was AEBS Sleeves (Without the copper ring recommended by AEBS just because my machinst and I decided not to use it). stock headgaskets, ARP headstuds. The sleeves did not sink, they are exactly where they started. That doesnt mean that the sleeves could not have contributed to the problems in a more complex way, because there are a few other ways they could have caused the problem.
Another interesting find...
When my Arias pistons first came to me, the stock bore ones, I noticed that they had no valve reliefs. I called and told them this and they told me that the dish is low enough not to need it like the stock ones. I said that the outer lip of the piston is just as high as stock and that is where the valves would hit if they were going to... they told me to not worry about it. I told them that even tho I have spun the engine assemebled and they cleared, that doesnt mean they will not hit when the valve timing starts changing around when the engine is running.
Sure enough, my intake valves had been slightly running into the piston. Do not use pistons that do not have valve reliefs, I cant believe I even used these things, especially with cams and a 1mm oversize valve.
My valves do not appear to be bent, but I will know for sure soon. It will be interesting for sure if I was making this power with bent intake valves.
When I come up with a plan of attack to keep my headgaskets from blowing out, ill let you guys know.
Once I turned it up to 14psi I was having cooling system issues. Those issues being coolant filling up the overflow until it came out. It was easy for me to moniter, as I have a vented hood and it would go straight out the driver side vent onto my windshield.
Occasional under severe duty my car would spontaneously loose about 100HP and then blast coolant pretty bad. After letting it cool by driving normal it would clear up.
Then the car started to burn oil.
My theory was that I was boiling coolant in the back of the block causing localized overheating and over expansion of the pistons causing them to attempt to seize in the cylinders causing the power loss, and eventually chewed up rings and burning oil.
Well, as we as human tend to, I was thinking way too deep into it and should have just torn it down right away rather then picking my brain for months and thinking about it.
My headgaskets were annihilated. My pistons/rings and bores are fine, this engine was not blown... just the headgaskets. I must have a smoked a turbo causing the oil smoke-screen.
My setup was AEBS Sleeves (Without the copper ring recommended by AEBS just because my machinst and I decided not to use it). stock headgaskets, ARP headstuds. The sleeves did not sink, they are exactly where they started. That doesnt mean that the sleeves could not have contributed to the problems in a more complex way, because there are a few other ways they could have caused the problem.
Another interesting find...
When my Arias pistons first came to me, the stock bore ones, I noticed that they had no valve reliefs. I called and told them this and they told me that the dish is low enough not to need it like the stock ones. I said that the outer lip of the piston is just as high as stock and that is where the valves would hit if they were going to... they told me to not worry about it. I told them that even tho I have spun the engine assemebled and they cleared, that doesnt mean they will not hit when the valve timing starts changing around when the engine is running.
Sure enough, my intake valves had been slightly running into the piston. Do not use pistons that do not have valve reliefs, I cant believe I even used these things, especially with cams and a 1mm oversize valve.
My valves do not appear to be bent, but I will know for sure soon. It will be interesting for sure if I was making this power with bent intake valves.
When I come up with a plan of attack to keep my headgaskets from blowing out, ill let you guys know.
Charles,
Thanks for the sharing...
With my previous valve float issue (bent an exhaust valve when bouncing off the rev limiter at 7700rpm with MoTeC ECU), my tuner told me this...
"I believe that when the engine hits the rpm limiter especially with a Motec it can cause a back firer in the exhaust as the ignition is cut but not the fuel.This unburnt fuel is left exiting the cylinder and down the extractor pipes.When the ignition is turned back on, the next firing cylinder ignites the fuel that is in the exhaust, and cause a small explosion that then sends a pressure wave in both directions in the exhaust.One you hear out of the exhaust as a pop and the other travels back and hits the back of the close exhaust valve. If the spring is a little light this pressure wave can open the exhaust valve and cause it to hit the piston especially at high rpm and if all the clearances are close due to camshaft and piston clearances."
So is it possible that when you floored the accelerator pedal, the igition at the STOCK ECU doing something weird to create such a back fire?!
Now we have pulled apart my motor again, there was one exhaust valve bent and now I am putting Ferrea valvetrain set (with dual springs) in to avoid this at 8000rpm.
cheers,
richie
Thanks for the sharing...
With my previous valve float issue (bent an exhaust valve when bouncing off the rev limiter at 7700rpm with MoTeC ECU), my tuner told me this...
"I believe that when the engine hits the rpm limiter especially with a Motec it can cause a back firer in the exhaust as the ignition is cut but not the fuel.This unburnt fuel is left exiting the cylinder and down the extractor pipes.When the ignition is turned back on, the next firing cylinder ignites the fuel that is in the exhaust, and cause a small explosion that then sends a pressure wave in both directions in the exhaust.One you hear out of the exhaust as a pop and the other travels back and hits the back of the close exhaust valve. If the spring is a little light this pressure wave can open the exhaust valve and cause it to hit the piston especially at high rpm and if all the clearances are close due to camshaft and piston clearances."
So is it possible that when you floored the accelerator pedal, the igition at the STOCK ECU doing something weird to create such a back fire?!
Now we have pulled apart my motor again, there was one exhaust valve bent and now I am putting Ferrea valvetrain set (with dual springs) in to avoid this at 8000rpm.
cheers,
richie
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Originally Posted by Z350Lover
Charles,
Thanks for the sharing...
With my previous valve float issue (bent an exhaust valve when bouncing off the rev limiter at 7700rpm with MoTeC ECU), my tuner told me this...
"I believe that when the engine hits the rpm limiter especially with a Motec it can cause a back firer in the exhaust as the ignition is cut but not the fuel.This unburnt fuel is left exiting the cylinder and down the extractor pipes.When the ignition is turned back on, the next firing cylinder ignites the fuel that is in the exhaust, and cause a small explosion that then sends a pressure wave in both directions in the exhaust.One you hear out of the exhaust as a pop and the other travels back and hits the back of the close exhaust valve. If the spring is a little light this pressure wave can open the exhaust valve and cause it to hit the piston especially at high rpm and if all the clearances are close due to camshaft and piston clearances."
So is it possible that when you floored the accelerator pedal, the igition at the STOCK ECU doing something weird to create such a back fire?!
Now we have pulled apart my motor again, there was one exhaust valve bent and now I am putting Ferrea valvetrain set (with dual springs) in to avoid this at 8000rpm.
cheers,
richie
Thanks for the sharing...
With my previous valve float issue (bent an exhaust valve when bouncing off the rev limiter at 7700rpm with MoTeC ECU), my tuner told me this...
"I believe that when the engine hits the rpm limiter especially with a Motec it can cause a back firer in the exhaust as the ignition is cut but not the fuel.This unburnt fuel is left exiting the cylinder and down the extractor pipes.When the ignition is turned back on, the next firing cylinder ignites the fuel that is in the exhaust, and cause a small explosion that then sends a pressure wave in both directions in the exhaust.One you hear out of the exhaust as a pop and the other travels back and hits the back of the close exhaust valve. If the spring is a little light this pressure wave can open the exhaust valve and cause it to hit the piston especially at high rpm and if all the clearances are close due to camshaft and piston clearances."
So is it possible that when you floored the accelerator pedal, the igition at the STOCK ECU doing something weird to create such a back fire?!
Now we have pulled apart my motor again, there was one exhaust valve bent and now I am putting Ferrea valvetrain set (with dual springs) in to avoid this at 8000rpm.
cheers,
richie
I may be jumping in the deep end but REV limiters don't do anything for downshifts? Unless I missed something, the only way you can over-rev is down shifting which causes big problems?
nope.... rev limiters don't do anything for the downshift (probably doesn't reactive fast enough to the accidental downshift?!)... the rpm will still go all the way up doesn't matter where you set the rev limiter...
I don't think FCON can control rev limiter though... it surely controls ignition timing and fuel... so Charles.... what does the stock ECU do with FCON ecu that you have got? In my case, my stock ecu does nothing with MoTeC m600 but drive-by-wire throttle (to control traction and cruise) and the air-conditioning and other non-engine functioning things... and yes.. my check engine light still works too if something goes wrong with the engine... motec still communicates with the stock ecu to display the check engine light warning signal.. don't know how Nizpro did that though, but their plug and play does surely work well!
cheers,
richie
I don't think FCON can control rev limiter though... it surely controls ignition timing and fuel... so Charles.... what does the stock ECU do with FCON ecu that you have got? In my case, my stock ecu does nothing with MoTeC m600 but drive-by-wire throttle (to control traction and cruise) and the air-conditioning and other non-engine functioning things... and yes.. my check engine light still works too if something goes wrong with the engine... motec still communicates with the stock ecu to display the check engine light warning signal.. don't know how Nizpro did that though, but their plug and play does surely work well!
cheers,
richie
Thread Starter
CJ Motorsports
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From: West Chicago, IL
Richie,
No rev-limiter can save you from a downshift because its not the fuel and spark that over-rev'd the engine.. its the wheel speed going thru the transmission to the flywheel... it wouldnt even matter if the car was turned on when you did it... its gonna rev.
The FCON does control rev limiters, and of course its adjustable in many ways. You can also set it up for launch control and full throttle shift.
The stock ECU in my car runs the throttle and the cam timing and that is all. My OBD-II system is still functional, so I have the diagnostics as well. the FCON does not currently support variable cam timing which is why my stock ECU still runs it.
Running a standalone with the stock ECU isnt really hard at all... I wouldnt be surprised if Nizpro built your PnP out of a FCON harness! You could use the FCON harness and wire up any EMS you like.
No rev-limiter can save you from a downshift because its not the fuel and spark that over-rev'd the engine.. its the wheel speed going thru the transmission to the flywheel... it wouldnt even matter if the car was turned on when you did it... its gonna rev.
The FCON does control rev limiters, and of course its adjustable in many ways. You can also set it up for launch control and full throttle shift.
The stock ECU in my car runs the throttle and the cam timing and that is all. My OBD-II system is still functional, so I have the diagnostics as well. the FCON does not currently support variable cam timing which is why my stock ECU still runs it.
Running a standalone with the stock ECU isnt really hard at all... I wouldnt be surprised if Nizpro built your PnP out of a FCON harness! You could use the FCON harness and wire up any EMS you like.
Running a standalone with the stock ECU might not be hard but getting it to the working state that Richies is in takes skill. He originally had it setup by another company who does alot of race cars but there were alot of compromises. Nizpro were able to rewire it, create a Motec plug-in harness for the 350z for everyone to buy, fix all the previous limitations that were present under the other Motec setup, and get more power out of it through better tuning. Quite a commendable job as I see it. Richie can elaborate as to the compromises experienced if necessary.
Considering Nizpros level of skill, their previous experience with 350zs and Motec plus the fact that there is basically no one in Australia who tunes the FCon I doubt they used the FCon harness as their basis. Thats a bit of speculation on your part that i dont think you would like others making about your company. Richie should be able to shed some more light on the subject.
Considering Nizpros level of skill, their previous experience with 350zs and Motec plus the fact that there is basically no one in Australia who tunes the FCon I doubt they used the FCon harness as their basis. Thats a bit of speculation on your part that i dont think you would like others making about your company. Richie should be able to shed some more light on the subject.
Thread Starter
CJ Motorsports
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From: West Chicago, IL
Sorry if I am not quite as impressed as you are... I designed a Motec M800 harness for a Dodge Viper 3 weeks ago... took just a few days really. Then we also built a special O2 simulator from scratch so we can remove all 4 factory O2 sensors without any CEL codes. :shrug: its just wiring... hook up the injectors, hook up the coils, build a crank trigger assembly, splice into the cam triggers... whats so hard? I think its probably easier then running a standalone that doesnt have a stock ECU still in the car.
Retaining OBD2 isnt a special skill. If the stock ECU is in the car, OBD2 is in the car... so its not like it requires ingenuity to keep the CEL.
Also, no need for you to get defensive on part of Nizpro simply because I said "it wouldn't surprise me" ... it also wouldnt surprise me if they made one from scratch... its not hard. Just take an autosportwiring.com harness and splice into your needs... add whatever sensors your EMS needs that your stock setup doesnt have... and then once the car runs figure out what simple things need to be done to eliminate any CELs.
Its not like I insulted them... its just an easy platform to start with to save time. All the required wires to run the engine are right there, and it only costs like 400 bucks and you dont have to waste time sourcing the ECU connectors and terminals and seals, its all fully assembled, just a matter of a little wiring.
Take the stock ECU out of the car without loosing any functions... then you will impress me with your EMS wiring
:shrug: perhaps thats just my attitude due to my profession... I see these things every day and perhaps I take that for granted. But in building high HP cars, the electronics and wiring are the least of my concerns.
Retaining OBD2 isnt a special skill. If the stock ECU is in the car, OBD2 is in the car... so its not like it requires ingenuity to keep the CEL.
Also, no need for you to get defensive on part of Nizpro simply because I said "it wouldn't surprise me" ... it also wouldnt surprise me if they made one from scratch... its not hard. Just take an autosportwiring.com harness and splice into your needs... add whatever sensors your EMS needs that your stock setup doesnt have... and then once the car runs figure out what simple things need to be done to eliminate any CELs.
Its not like I insulted them... its just an easy platform to start with to save time. All the required wires to run the engine are right there, and it only costs like 400 bucks and you dont have to waste time sourcing the ECU connectors and terminals and seals, its all fully assembled, just a matter of a little wiring.
Take the stock ECU out of the car without loosing any functions... then you will impress me with your EMS wiring
:shrug: perhaps thats just my attitude due to my profession... I see these things every day and perhaps I take that for granted. But in building high HP cars, the electronics and wiring are the least of my concerns.
Last edited by phunk; Jan 29, 2006 at 11:30 PM.
Originally Posted by phunk
Sorry if I am not quite as impressed as you are... I designed a Motec M800 harness for a Dodge Viper 3 weeks ago... took just a few days really. Then we also built a special O2 simulator from scratch so we can remove all 4 factory O2 sensors without any CEL codes. :shrug: its just wiring... hook up the injectors, hook up the coils, build a crank trigger assembly, splice into the cam triggers... whats so hard? I think its probably easier then running a standalone that doesnt have a stock ECU still in the car.
Retaining OBD2 isnt a special skill. If the stock ECU is in the car, OBD2 is in the car... so its not like it requires ingenuity to keep the CEL.
Also, no need for you to get defensive on part of Nizpro simply because I said "it wouldn't surprise me" ... it also wouldnt surprise me if they made one from scratch... its not hard. Just take an autosportwiring.com harness and splice into your needs... add whatever sensors your EMS needs that your stock setup doesnt have... and then once the car runs figure out what simple things need to be done to eliminate any CELs.
Its not like I insulted them... its just an easy platform to start with to save time. All the required wires to run the engine are right there, and it only costs like 400 bucks and you dont have to waste time sourcing the ECU connectors and terminals and seals, its all fully assembled, just a matter of a little wiring.
Take the stock ECU out of the car without loosing any functions... then you will impress me with your EMS wiring
Retaining OBD2 isnt a special skill. If the stock ECU is in the car, OBD2 is in the car... so its not like it requires ingenuity to keep the CEL.
Also, no need for you to get defensive on part of Nizpro simply because I said "it wouldn't surprise me" ... it also wouldnt surprise me if they made one from scratch... its not hard. Just take an autosportwiring.com harness and splice into your needs... add whatever sensors your EMS needs that your stock setup doesnt have... and then once the car runs figure out what simple things need to be done to eliminate any CELs.
Its not like I insulted them... its just an easy platform to start with to save time. All the required wires to run the engine are right there, and it only costs like 400 bucks and you dont have to waste time sourcing the ECU connectors and terminals and seals, its all fully assembled, just a matter of a little wiring.
Take the stock ECU out of the car without loosing any functions... then you will impress me with your EMS wiring
LOL.... OWNED
Thread Starter
CJ Motorsports
iTrader: (21)
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 3,997
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From: West Chicago, IL
Originally Posted by XBS
LOL.... OWNED
I didn't mean it that way... but I have been told many times that the way in which I word things online makes me sound very cocky and over-confident with a touch of attitude. 
I can assure you, I am very much the opposite in person
I apologize mchapman if my post came off as demeaning to you or the fellows at Nizpro. Everything is always easier said then done... the difference is in those who have actually DONE, and not just SAID.
Last edited by phunk; Jan 29, 2006 at 11:41 PM.
Charles,
I am sure Murray doesn't mean that way... we are all very surprised to see the plug and play EMS really because as what Murray said.. no one in australia knows how to tune or really good at FCON... else many people would have already gone for that route, including me
I know Nizpro got their plugs from the States, and they are not HKS stuffs for sure... but I am not too sure where they got those from to be honest... I am just the end user... and to me, making a plug and play does seem real hard though... so good on Nizpro and yourself making plug and play for us all!
I was using MoTeC DBW without standard ECU to take any part of the engine management... and it was very hard for the daily as the rpm hunts occur frequently at the lower rpm range... until I got the car tuned and made right by gangs at Nizpro... THat's also why I am promoting them quite a lot as they really know what they are doing though!
cheers,
richie
I am sure Murray doesn't mean that way... we are all very surprised to see the plug and play EMS really because as what Murray said.. no one in australia knows how to tune or really good at FCON... else many people would have already gone for that route, including me
I know Nizpro got their plugs from the States, and they are not HKS stuffs for sure... but I am not too sure where they got those from to be honest... I am just the end user... and to me, making a plug and play does seem real hard though... so good on Nizpro and yourself making plug and play for us all!
I was using MoTeC DBW without standard ECU to take any part of the engine management... and it was very hard for the daily as the rpm hunts occur frequently at the lower rpm range... until I got the car tuned and made right by gangs at Nizpro... THat's also why I am promoting them quite a lot as they really know what they are doing though!
cheers,
richie
Thread Starter
CJ Motorsports
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From: West Chicago, IL
So the MoTeC wasnt able to control the idle very well with the DBW? Did they consider adding an individual idle valve and just letting the DBW fully shut at idle? Or was it not only idle having issues?
I ask these questions because I am soon to be attending the MoTeC version 3 software training and I have been remotely considering the idea of puting a MoTeC in my Z and seeing if I can get all to be well with no stock ECU at all in the car.
I ask these questions because I am soon to be attending the MoTeC version 3 software training and I have been remotely considering the idea of puting a MoTeC in my Z and seeing if I can get all to be well with no stock ECU at all in the car.
Originally Posted by Z350Lover
Charles,
I am sure Murray doesn't mean that way... we are all very surprised to see the plug and play EMS really because as what Murray said.. no one in australia knows how to tune or really good at FCON... else many people would have already gone for that route, including me
I know Nizpro got their plugs from the States, and they are not HKS stuffs for sure... but I am not too sure where they got those from to be honest... I am just the end user... and to me, making a plug and play does seem real hard though... so good on Nizpro and yourself making plug and play for us all!
I was using MoTeC DBW without standard ECU to take any part of the engine management... and it was very hard for the daily as the rpm hunts occur frequently at the lower rpm range... until I got the car tuned and made right by gangs at Nizpro... THat's also why I am promoting them quite a lot as they really know what they are doing though!
cheers,
richie
I am sure Murray doesn't mean that way... we are all very surprised to see the plug and play EMS really because as what Murray said.. no one in australia knows how to tune or really good at FCON... else many people would have already gone for that route, including me
I know Nizpro got their plugs from the States, and they are not HKS stuffs for sure... but I am not too sure where they got those from to be honest... I am just the end user... and to me, making a plug and play does seem real hard though... so good on Nizpro and yourself making plug and play for us all!
I was using MoTeC DBW without standard ECU to take any part of the engine management... and it was very hard for the daily as the rpm hunts occur frequently at the lower rpm range... until I got the car tuned and made right by gangs at Nizpro... THat's also why I am promoting them quite a lot as they really know what they are doing though!
cheers,
richie
Originally Posted by phunk
Sorry if I am not quite as impressed as you are... I designed a Motec M800 harness for a Dodge Viper 3 weeks ago... took just a few days really. Then we also built a special O2 simulator from scratch so we can remove all 4 factory O2 sensors without any CEL codes. :shrug: its just wiring... hook up the injectors, hook up the coils, build a crank trigger assembly, splice into the cam triggers... whats so hard? I think its probably easier then running a standalone that doesnt have a stock ECU still in the car.
Retaining OBD2 isnt a special skill. If the stock ECU is in the car, OBD2 is in the car... so its not like it requires ingenuity to keep the CEL.
Also, no need for you to get defensive on part of Nizpro simply because I said "it wouldn't surprise me" ... it also wouldnt surprise me if they made one from scratch... its not hard. Just take an autosportwiring.com harness and splice into your needs... add whatever sensors your EMS needs that your stock setup doesnt have... and then once the car runs figure out what simple things need to be done to eliminate any CELs.
Its not like I insulted them... its just an easy platform to start with to save time.
Take the stock ECU out of the car without loosing any functions... then you will impress me with your EMS wiring
Retaining OBD2 isnt a special skill. If the stock ECU is in the car, OBD2 is in the car... so its not like it requires ingenuity to keep the CEL.
Also, no need for you to get defensive on part of Nizpro simply because I said "it wouldn't surprise me" ... it also wouldnt surprise me if they made one from scratch... its not hard. Just take an autosportwiring.com harness and splice into your needs... add whatever sensors your EMS needs that your stock setup doesnt have... and then once the car runs figure out what simple things need to be done to eliminate any CELs.
Its not like I insulted them... its just an easy platform to start with to save time.
Take the stock ECU out of the car without loosing any functions... then you will impress me with your EMS wiring
You said 'Running a standalone with the stock ECU isnt really hard at all... '
And what I was trying to say was, just running a standalone ems with the stock ECU might not be hard but running a standalone EMS like the one installed on Richies car, setup without the issues Richie had previously cant be that easy if one company couldnt do it correctly and it took another obviously more skilled company to do it. That indicates to me that it isnt that easy to do it correctly.
Fair enough, it just didnt sound right when read online.
The fact that they made it and its available for anyone to buy with Motec and base maps is a big plus towards Nizpro in my books. Not everyone who wires up an ECU creates a PNP harness and makes it available for everyone to buy. I personally dont use Nizpro but if anyone else did something similar for the 350z market I would feel the same way.
Last edited by mchapman; Jan 30, 2006 at 12:24 AM.
