Sleeving Process GT Motorsports Part I: machining block and sleeve install
06-09-2006 | 09:32 PM
#21
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Originally Posted by HeadGames
nice write up as well. I would like to see one done on how you do the mains.
06-09-2006 | 09:43 PM
#22
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From: Ewing,NJ
mains is short for main cap area...totally opposite side of the engine then a head stud.
I have never machined or seen someone machine a girdle so I am curious how this is done. If I remember correctly it is one piece and not independent caps.
I have never machined or seen someone machine a girdle so I am curious how this is done. If I remember correctly it is one piece and not independent caps.
06-09-2006 | 09:51 PM
#23
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Originally Posted by HeadGames
mains is short for main cap area...totally opposite side of the engine then a head stud.
I have never machined or seen someone machine a girdle so I am curious how this is done. If I remember correctly it is one piece and not independent caps.
I have never machined or seen someone machine a girdle so I am curious how this is done. If I remember correctly it is one piece and not independent caps.
thanks
well aware of where the main caps are located
...I've never heard anyone ask how mains are machined, so this was confusing
06-10-2006 | 08:13 AM
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From: Albuquerque, NM
Originally Posted by GTM
speaking of risk (in my humbel openoin )
-tuning a car by unqualified tuner is a risky proposition
-installing a turbo kit by unqualified technician is a risky proposition
-even install a stereo in a car by unqualified installer is a risky proposition ,so the same thing goes for sleaving an engine .
when you have the right equipment in trained hands as you put it (qualified machinist ) the risk factor become very slim but it can never be 0 maybe +/- .0005
we have had a very good track record sleaving engines (knocking on wood ) so far . it is a science of precision.
Sam
GT MOTORSPORTS
-tuning a car by unqualified tuner is a risky proposition
-installing a turbo kit by unqualified technician is a risky proposition
-even install a stereo in a car by unqualified installer is a risky proposition ,so the same thing goes for sleaving an engine .
when you have the right equipment in trained hands as you put it (qualified machinist ) the risk factor become very slim but it can never be 0 maybe +/- .0005
we have had a very good track record sleaving engines (knocking on wood ) so far . it is a science of precision.
Sam
GT MOTORSPORTS
This hobby/ sport/ disease
has many uncertainties..it's great to know that your attention to detail in the sleeving process is top notch ...This at least greatly reduces the risk of any problems..as you said there are several factors involved when making lots of power... it is great knowing that one doesn't have to worry if the motor was put together properly
-TODD
06-11-2006 | 03:16 AM
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From: Out There --->
I'll share a trick we use when installing sleeves and having ZERO pickup and oring issues.
Machine up a sleeve that bolts (in 2 halves) around sleeve with installed Oring.
Drop into liquird nitrogen, remove, remove 2 piece sleeve and 'drop' (and I mean drop with no force needed) sleeve into block.. when it warms up, I can guarantee its not coming out AND it won't leak.
You will be amazed the interferance clearances you can run with using liquid Nitrogen and the ease of fitting.
As far as machine mains are concerned, they are line bored like a camshaft journal.
The Std girdle looks pretty good, though I will be making some out of cho-mo.
Possibility of side bolts in main caps if issues are encountered.
Though, my main concern would be stock crank before mains walking.
Machine up a sleeve that bolts (in 2 halves) around sleeve with installed Oring.
Drop into liquird nitrogen, remove, remove 2 piece sleeve and 'drop' (and I mean drop with no force needed) sleeve into block.. when it warms up, I can guarantee its not coming out AND it won't leak.
You will be amazed the interferance clearances you can run with using liquid Nitrogen and the ease of fitting.
As far as machine mains are concerned, they are line bored like a camshaft journal.
The Std girdle looks pretty good, though I will be making some out of cho-mo.
Possibility of side bolts in main caps if issues are encountered.
Though, my main concern would be stock crank before mains walking.
06-11-2006 | 07:56 PM
#29
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there has not been a need for dipping the sleeves in liquid nitrogen ,and defiantly Darton installation instruction and machine specs does suggest that anywhere in the spec sheet .further more a lot of people have the misconception that those sleeves are preset in which there're not ,after the final step of mashing the block ,and when installing the sleeves we are using a rubber mallet to install them , that is it ,no press involve ,and further more these are wet sleeves and they are designed to be replace individually when needed by simply tapping the sleeve out .witch we have done before and it works like it suppose to .no tricks
Sam
GT MOTORSPORTS
Sam
GT MOTORSPORTS
06-11-2006 | 08:40 PM
#30
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good to see the experts commenting here
Originally Posted by GTM
there has not been a need for dipping the sleeves in liquid nitrogen ,and defiantly Darton installation instruction and machine specs does suggest that anywhere in the spec sheet .further more a lot of people have the misconception that those sleeves are preset in which there're not ,after the final step of mashing the block ,and when installing the sleeves we are using a rubber mallet to install them , that is it ,no press involve ,and further more these are wet sleeves and they are designed to be replace individually when needed by simply tapping the sleeve out .witch we have done before and it works like it suppose to .no tricks
Sam
GT MOTORSPORTS
Sam
GT MOTORSPORTS
too many times, the truth becomes distorted when people make assumptions or try to exrapolate data from a different motor to the vq35...
good to hear from a guy that installs more darton sleeves than any other single shop in the country...
Thanks Sam!!!
06-11-2006 | 10:19 PM
#31
Originally Posted by GTM
there has not been a need for dipping the sleeves in liquid nitrogen ,and defiantly Darton installation instruction and machine specs does suggest that anywhere in the spec sheet .further more a lot of people have the misconception that those sleeves are preset in which there're not ,after the final step of mashing the block ,and when installing the sleeves we are using a rubber mallet to install them , that is it ,no press involve ,and further more these are wet sleeves and they are designed to be replace individually when needed by simply tapping the sleeve out .witch we have done before and it works like it suppose to .no tricks
Sam
GT MOTORSPORTS
Sam
GT MOTORSPORTS
I have a question that is "somewhat" on-topic still. AEBS advertises thier stroker to be 4.3 liters and they are using the below specs:
Turbo 8.5 : 1 / 100mm, engine size 4231.16cc
N/A 11.0 : 1 / 101.5mm, engine size 4269.35cc
N/A 11.5 : 1 / 101.5mm, engine size 4269.35cc
Includes chrome steel rings, wrist pins and clips
Are thier measurements correct? Aren't the sleeved blocks you're doing 3.8 liters?
Edit: I think I just found my answer. They appear to be using a different crank with a longer stroke as well.
Crankshaft
Material: 9325 (custom billet steel, same material used in Top Fuel NHRA engines)
Stroke: 90mm (stock is 81mm)
Last edited by boogiemyke; 06-11-2006 at 10:25 PM.
06-12-2006 | 01:01 AM
#32
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From: southern California
there is two way to accomplish bigger displacement in a engine one which is the most common is bigger bore size ,or you can extend the stroke of the crank ,or the combination of stroke and bore .the 3.8l that has been brought up here is based on a stock stork which 81 mm and a 100 mm bore size witch will give a 3.8 l .
in the next 60 days GT MOTORSPORTS will introduce our line of billet crankshaft and stroker kit ,we will have three different strokes available for the vq35
part # & stroke
GTM-5000-81mm 3.5l for the stock replacement crank .
GTM-5000-87mm 3.8l STROKER kit .(the 3.8l is accomplish increasing the stroke to 87 mm and the bore to 95 mm )
GTM-5000-90mm 4.2l STROKER kit (the 4,.2 l is accomplish by increasing the stroke to 90 mm and the bore to 100 mm )
our crankshaft will not be a duplication of the stock crankshaft with a longer stroke only .they will be a complete enhancement from the factory crank to improve torque curve and faster and higher safe rev limits .keeping in mind that is not very difficult to take factory crankshaft and duplicated by making and billet crank ,but improving the performance of it is a different ball game .
I will attached couple pics of some of the billet crankshaft that we had made for the Subaru ej20 and the Mitsubishi 4g63 and 4g64
Sam
GT MOTORSPORTS
in the next 60 days GT MOTORSPORTS will introduce our line of billet crankshaft and stroker kit ,we will have three different strokes available for the vq35
part # & stroke
GTM-5000-81mm 3.5l for the stock replacement crank .
GTM-5000-87mm 3.8l STROKER kit .(the 3.8l is accomplish increasing the stroke to 87 mm and the bore to 95 mm )
GTM-5000-90mm 4.2l STROKER kit (the 4,.2 l is accomplish by increasing the stroke to 90 mm and the bore to 100 mm )
our crankshaft will not be a duplication of the stock crankshaft with a longer stroke only .they will be a complete enhancement from the factory crank to improve torque curve and faster and higher safe rev limits .keeping in mind that is not very difficult to take factory crankshaft and duplicated by making and billet crank ,but improving the performance of it is a different ball game .
I will attached couple pics of some of the billet crankshaft that we had made for the Subaru ej20 and the Mitsubishi 4g63 and 4g64
Sam
GT MOTORSPORTS
Last edited by Goerge@GTMotors; 08-07-2006 at 11:18 PM.
06-12-2006 | 06:04 AM
#33
Well done 
Absolutely beautiful work. This somthing that I might wait for
Do you think you would have it out before 60 days?
Thanks,
Az
PS: If you have any pics of the VQ crank I would love to see
Absolutely beautiful work. This somthing that I might wait for
Do you think you would have it out before 60 days?
Thanks,
Az
PS: If you have any pics of the VQ crank I would love to see
06-12-2006 | 06:39 AM
#34
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From: Ewing,NJ
Originally Posted by Spanners
As far as machine mains are concerned, they are line bored like a camshaft journal.
The Std girdle looks pretty good, though I will be making some out of cho-mo.
Possibility of side bolts in main caps if issues are encountered.
Though, my main concern would be stock crank before mains walking.
The Std girdle looks pretty good, though I will be making some out of cho-mo.
Possibility of side bolts in main caps if issues are encountered.
Though, my main concern would be stock crank before mains walking.
06-12-2006 | 10:33 AM
#35
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From: southern California
Originally Posted by HeadGames
I was thinking you wouldn't have to line bore the VQ because of the badass girdle they come with from the factory..I understand with some engines as with the 4G63 the main bores will move a little bit with a stud, and you have to line bore and hone...Maybe Sam could elaborate on the findings in the VQ. I was curious how they were line honed because as I said if remember correctly there is not individual caps but one big girdle with the mains attached so if you have one that is off 5-7 how do you make up the difference? The girdle is not going to fit in a cap cutter..I was thinking you had to do something by hand with it. I am sure there preety close from the factory, but when you install studs crazy stuff will happen sometimes.
now when we start to see the main walking on the vq ,we have the flowing remedy for it .
use a billet crankshaft ,billet crank crankshaft will not bent or flex (the factory forged crank will )
install billet main caps
replace the main caps girdle with a billet steel ( factory is aluminum )
Sam
GT MOTORSPORTS
Last edited by Goerge@GTMotors; 08-07-2006 at 11:18 PM.
06-12-2006 | 05:47 PM
#36
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From: Ewing,NJ
Oh yes...my bad. Thanks for the pics, and the clarification, I have felt the need for it as you can see by my posts.. it has been some time since I seen a VQ apart. Does Pro gram make a cap for the VQ yet?
06-20-2006 | 03:18 AM
#37
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From: Out There --->
Originally Posted by GTM
there has not been a need for dipping the sleeves in liquid nitrogen ,and defiantly Darton installation instruction and machine specs does suggest that anywhere in the spec sheet .further more a lot of people have the misconception that those sleeves are preset in which there're not ,after the final step of mashing the block ,and when installing the sleeves we are using a rubber mallet to install them , that is it ,no press involve ,and further more these are wet sleeves and they are designed to be replace individually when needed by simply tapping the sleeve out .witch we have done before and it works like it suppose to .no tricks
Sam
GT MOTORSPORTS
Sam
GT MOTORSPORTS
I've had experiences before with Darton Honda liner kits being a thou or 2 under size and having them leak and fret.
We hand fit each liner to each pot with the same exact interferance fit with liquid nitrogen. NEVER have an issue.
You have to remember, alot of companies make parts for race motors, not build engines with in excess of 2-3 times factory output that have to last 6hrs non stop in Edurance races.
06-20-2006 | 10:16 AM
#39
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From: All over!
Originally Posted by GTM
I will attached couple pics of some of the billet crankshaft that we had made for the Subaru ej20 and the Mitsubishi 4g63 and 4g64
Sam
GT MOTORSPORTS
Sam
GT MOTORSPORTS
-E
06-20-2006 | 10:47 AM
#40
Originally Posted by GTM
There have been a lot of misconceptions about sleeving The VQ35 , using the Darton mid sleeves, the question that I am frequently asked is how reliable sleeving the VQ35 is, and that a number of people have heard or experience sleeve failure and coolant leakage in the crankcase. I would like to share with you what causes or the reason in unreliability of sleeving the VQ.
1. Shearing the O rings when pressing the sleeves.
2. Improper machine for the block not allowing sleeve to seat 100%.
3. Improper decking of the block.
4. Improper sleeve to block clearance.
As you see every thing I mentioned above is related to faulty installation or machining, nothing more or less. On the other hand I want to also mention what makes the Darton sleeve the most reliable sleeve on the market for VQ.
Darton International did not reinvent the wheel when they introduce mid sleeves instead they took a proven technology and applied it within the sport compact market.
1. Wet sleeves have been utilize and used for the last 50 years in a lot of engine and especially in the heavy duty equipment like the Caterpillar engine and Cummings. These engines run 1bout 18 to 1 compression and produce over 3000 foot-pound of torques, and they have to last for a minimum of 200k miles.
2. The use of the o ring around the sleeve works as second defense system against any leakage, as we know thermo expansion is always a big factor when you install cast iron steel into aluminum since the aluminum expand and cools down a lot faster than cast. Therefore the o rings become the ultimate solution this problem.
3. O rings are made from a very durable martial called Buna 70; these same o-rings are used in the Caterpillar and the Cummings engins.
4. The Darton sleeve for the VQ has the largest resting area in the block that where the sleeves rest and being supported by the block which makes virtually impossible to sink and to shift, so the bottom line is sleeving the VQ successfully 100% lies in the proper machining of the block and the proper installation with using the proper equipment, a combination of facility and machines. The difference between having a good sleeve job and a disaster is .0005; keeping in mind the size of the human hair is .003.
Sam.
GT Motorsports
1. Shearing the O rings when pressing the sleeves.
2. Improper machine for the block not allowing sleeve to seat 100%.
3. Improper decking of the block.
4. Improper sleeve to block clearance.
As you see every thing I mentioned above is related to faulty installation or machining, nothing more or less. On the other hand I want to also mention what makes the Darton sleeve the most reliable sleeve on the market for VQ.
Darton International did not reinvent the wheel when they introduce mid sleeves instead they took a proven technology and applied it within the sport compact market.
1. Wet sleeves have been utilize and used for the last 50 years in a lot of engine and especially in the heavy duty equipment like the Caterpillar engine and Cummings. These engines run 1bout 18 to 1 compression and produce over 3000 foot-pound of torques, and they have to last for a minimum of 200k miles.
2. The use of the o ring around the sleeve works as second defense system against any leakage, as we know thermo expansion is always a big factor when you install cast iron steel into aluminum since the aluminum expand and cools down a lot faster than cast. Therefore the o rings become the ultimate solution this problem.
3. O rings are made from a very durable martial called Buna 70; these same o-rings are used in the Caterpillar and the Cummings engins.
4. The Darton sleeve for the VQ has the largest resting area in the block that where the sleeves rest and being supported by the block which makes virtually impossible to sink and to shift, so the bottom line is sleeving the VQ successfully 100% lies in the proper machining of the block and the proper installation with using the proper equipment, a combination of facility and machines. The difference between having a good sleeve job and a disaster is .0005; keeping in mind the size of the human hair is .003.
Sam.
GT Motorsports
I've had a few disasters with AEBS, when I let AEBS sleeve my blocks.. But, since I switched to Southland, I haven't had any problems whatsoever.
If they're old/wear glasses, chances are, they know what they're doing.
Travis
Last edited by Trav4011; 06-20-2006 at 10:51 AM.