Simple deduction implies cold air is causing higher boost. Cold air expanding in the manifold as it heats up. Sounds logical to me.

 

If I have time at work tomorrow, I want to run a quick compressor simulation to see the effects of air temp on boost... maybe that can help end this debate.

 

That would be cool.

 

Lol. My thread turned into a battle

Anyways, let me know if anyone knows what is going on with my car...

 

You're pretty notorious for saying TN craps gold. While I don't think it's a bad kit, having several design changes and using public as R&D proves the point of them not designing the system properly.

But whatever you need to make yourself feeel better. I guess the kits that don't have this issue are the ones that are flawed and TN isn't.

Please. You're arguing with little to, no back ground yet you want to challenge me. My point has been it's not the cold air that is the problem it's the system, if there is something with cold air causing more pressure in a certain area and not allowing the WG to be the dump it's just exaggerating a design flaw, similiar to the first TN kits that had this issue, and the APS.

 

And you are still telling me theres a flaw but don't have the background to tell me what it is. So how do you know its a flaw? Because you read it on the internet? You have zero knowledge of my background with turbochargers or turbo systems so who are you to tell me what I do and don't know on the subject? I'm not challenging you I'm asking you to validate your statement. The sad fact is that the issue occurs with or without the design change of the wastegate placement. If you are familiar with troubleshooting or problem solving at all you would know that the largest delta between to results is usually the cause of deviation. In this case the only delta is the temperature of the ambient air. If all things remain equal aside from the air temp and the pressure sensor at the manifold changes, what exactly do you think is the root cause. Your supposed cold weather design flaw is faulty in exactly that regard. It does not explain nor quantify WHY the change only occurs in cold weather. If you cannot provide evidence that there is a flaw the somehow only MAGICALLy affects a turbo design in cold weather why is it that we should listen to you at all. You yourself have stated that pressure is pressure. If the cold air has no affect on pressure how could exist? You are arguing that cold weather is not the root cause but then you contradict yourself and say that cold weather is causing more pressure in a specific area which is exasperating a design flaw that you cannot point out? Please, if you have no background in this subject stop making suppositions based on what you read on the internet. At least I can admit that I am not formerly educated on the matter of fluid dynamics. You on the other hand have stated incorrect examples, and pointed out YOUR percieved design flaw although you STILL cannot tell me what the flaw is. You think because someone redesigned something for one specific failure mode that the entire product is flawed. Or is that because one design change was made any flaw can be attributted to that? Your reasoning makes little to no sense. Whats sad is that you would look DOWN on a company for improving their product. I know you have Greddy kit, when has Greddy EVER updates their system design to correct its deficiencies? (fuel system, fuel pump, couplers near manifold, ruptured power steering lines, etc) Oh thats right they never have. So because APS and Turbonetics are improving their design to meet customers needs you knock them as poor engineers even though you have ZERO background in the field? If you have nothing useful to add to this discussion then leave. No one needs your opinion on the subject especially when you clearly cannot qualify your remarks.



Edit: And for the record none of my posts on the subject say or insinuate that the Turbonetics design is flawless. I'm mearly stating that your half cocked answer for the root cause is not right. I asked for some with knowledge of this subject to post if they can. You are not that person. I am not saying Turbonetics is perfect I am saying your answer is off base.

 

Jesus I am reminded why you're alway accused of having such a hard on for TN and defending things that are wrong.

You don't have to be a rocket scientist to understand there was something wrong.

Like I said looks like they should have hired a fluid engineer from day one. I take everything back. Air is the problem and the all mighty MIA and TN are infallible.

 

Ah... personal attacks...the best defense when you are trying to argue something of which you have no knowledge. And since you are calling my response a defense of Turbonetics I guess I must be defending APS too since I said their engineers clearly have more knowledge of system design then you do. Wow so now I'm defending Turbonetics AND APS. I guess I better clear my schedule.

 

Actually I'm not attacking you, I'm conceding that the people I know in the industry aren't fluid engineers either and the information they share with me is obviously incorrect.

You win. Down with cold air.

 

First off, quit being a jackass. Obviously you have no idea WHY this is happening so you instead try to look smart by blaming it on the kit. When in fact, it's not a problem with the kit, but rather a problem with traditinal turbocharger systems.

I believe Wired was on the right track with his theory on air mass entering the combustion chamber and heating to produce a leaner AFR mixture.

I believe the problem with higher boost is something else entirely. The issue is with a boost control system, such as a wastegate spring, that is blind to manifold pressure. This is exactly why you won't see people having this issue that have electronically controlled boost solenoids.

In a system regulated by wastegate spring, boost is controlled by the heated air in the exhaust system. The wastegate actuator is opened by superheated gasses when a flat 9 lbs of pressure is applied. When dense cold air enters the intake and heats while being compressed by the compressor wheel, it generates higher manifold pressure. The wastegate actuator is totally oblivious to this fact and continues to build boost until it achieves 9 lbs and opens. In reality, it is building more boost than normal on the intake end.

In a system with an electronically regulated solenoid controlling the wastegate actuator, the computer can actually meter the manifold pressure and direct the wastegate to open once the preset amount of manifold boost pressure has been achieved. This means that when the desne cold air is compressed and generates the higher manifold pressure, the auto setting on the boost controller can either detect this and open the wastegate earlier, or the user can adjust the amount of wastegate load to open the plunger sooner and compensate for this effect. This ensures that the wastegate is controlled in relation to manifold pressure, which is what we want since this is constantly changing due to ambient temperature. *Keep in mind that this will work with a manual boost controller as well, but the user will simply have to adjust wastegate load to account for temperature changes

Does that make sense to everyone? I'm by no means a fluid dynamics major but with a simple amount of logic it makes perfect sense.


That being said, if you're having these issues, go out and buy an electronic boost controller and give it a shot. You certainly weren't charged for one when you bought this kit, so no complaints that this is a FLAW. This is how the system works by design, and if you want total control you're going to have to add to it.

Come to think of it, I haven't seen Greddy owners complaining about this. They just poney up and buy the controller in the first place.

 

I apologize guys, but it appears my access to the software I was going to use for the compressor simulation has been cut-off.

I might be able to use it if I find an undergrad or something. I think the problem is that I'm not enrolled in any classes right now.

 

Actually I'm not trying to be a "jackass" you again showed me that it is a design flaw, and not just a problem with cold air. Never did I offer the solution, or pretend to know more than anybody, but I know enough to understand the problem can be fixed, which makes it a flaw in the system. Why is everybody has to be so butt hurt when things like that are pointed out, I'm not sure.

You're jackass-less answer should have been, just explaining that a EBC helps solve the problem, although there are several people I've read with EBC that have design problems with APS, TN, and probably more of the TKS that either have creep or leak in the boost.

 

His answer in no way makes its a design flaw. His answer actually further proves that the cause is not a design FLAW but rather that the wastegate signal has been altered so it is no longer reading pressure from the compressor outlet as its primary signal source but that the Boost Controller (referencing intake plenum pressure) is the new primary signal. This does not mean the system design has failed. This means that using an EBC will alter the operation of the overall system. Again you still cannot answer what the flaw is only that YOU think there is a flaw. The wastegate itself is not failing, the system design is not the CAUSE of the increased pressure READING. If the system works in warm weather and you are telling us that cold air and warm air react exactly the same then what is this cold weather induced flaw that you keep referencing? The ONLY stab I have seen you take is that the design of the system and or wastegate is causing the wastegate to stay closed longer. Unfortunately you are way off base. The wastegate is still opening at 9 PSI as it always has.

 

For my car. It is a simple fact that AFR will change according to the temperature.. It seems like it is impossible to run it in 38-42 degrees because AFRs will jump to 12 at some times. Oh well, tuning will come soon

 

Does the car audibly ping at all?

 

No, I did not concede this is a design flaw. I said if you're having issues to go buy a damn boost controller. This would happen on any turbo kit without a method of boost control outside of wastegate tension. People are not charged or promised one with the kit so it should be their own responsibility to go get one.

Seriously, what do people expect? This whole "magic do-all turbo kit" mentality is making people lazy.

 

It is a design flaw, if it has elevated boost levels in the cold the turbo need to be designed with that in mind and tested to see what it does in a variety of conditions. When you design something there is no real way to have it really "perfect' in all conditions, which we both agree, but if you design something around the wrong perameter then it is a design flaw. It would make much more sense to have the system designed around 40-degree dry air, so that when people use it in the real world that there is less of a chance of increased boost level with temp.

If it were designed in 90-degrees and tested there maybe no real way to see the boost problem in cold air.

So I say design flaw, and you guys can either disagree or not. But wanting a fluid engineer to redesign a system says something to me, even if I'm a jackass.

 

Who said they wanted a Fluid Engineer to redesign the system? I asked for a Fluid Dynamics Engineer to share their opinion on whether or not cold air could do what Wired said it might do. So what is the flaw? You keep telling me there is a flaw, what is it?

 

Sorry, but you're not just a jackass. You're a rock.

Do you even know how a turbocharger works? How many times does it need to be stated that its not an flaw in the turbocharger or the wastegate? This phenomenon should be present on any turbo kit without a boost controller.

For instance, the greddy kit doesn't come with a boost controller or even a blow off valve. It's a given for owners to buy it and they do so without all the b*tching, or run off the wastegate and deal with it. The situation is no different here.

 

Car does not ping audibly at all... no strange noise except my engine stuttering in 5th gear around 4k RPMs. Just sounds like misfiring but I don't know too much since I always let off when it happens or if my AFRs go past 12 ish..