check OUT these NICE pics!!!!
With the pump located in the front, those rear bearings are the first to experience pressure drops.
06-26-2007, 04:27 PM
#47
Originally Posted by jasonM
oil starvation due to a glogged oil pump(copper shavings)
What did your pickup look like? Copper shavings would be caught in the filter, and would not be picked up by the siphon, unless there was massive amounts of metal in your oil.
I also noticed your twisted thrust washer, but that mostly likely twisted when the crank snapped.
Just throwing some more things out there, to think about.
06-26-2007, 07:52 PM
#49
Wow...yeah definitely looks like an oil starvation problem that heated up the mains starting at the rear. You can see the blue/black on the bearings from the heat generated from the lack of oil.
More then likely the rear bearing got so hot that it seized the crank and caused it to break from the continued rotation from the firing of the front cylinders and the resistance/seizing of the rear bearing.
How was the oil level and oil pressure before this happened?
More then likely the rear bearing got so hot that it seized the crank and caused it to break from the continued rotation from the firing of the front cylinders and the resistance/seizing of the rear bearing.
How was the oil level and oil pressure before this happened?
06-27-2007, 04:14 AM
#50
yeah guys, we are going to work with jason to help him resolve the problem.
my honest opinion is that the crank had a stress crack in it for a while now, even though he has had the motor for 10 months now, he was running on a 9 pound pulley with a horrible tune (done at a local shop where he lives) and the car barely made 330 on a dynojet (at first) he said that he drove it like that for a month or little longer and then the car started running like crap. where you couldnt even give it half throttle. so he has slowly driven around for a while now until he had the time and money to get it all fixed up. this isnt his only vehicle so its not too big of a deal.
all the rod bearings still look fine, so it couldnt have been oil starvation for too long, if it was oil starvation then they all would look pretty worn by now. this broken crank still spun around in the motor so that would cause some serious bearing damage alone right there.
i am sure that the small stress cracks in motor got amplified by stepping up the boost to 11 psi and fully retuning the Procharged car to 400+ hp here recently and the car was running just fine.
i was just saying that with a year warranty on a motor as provided, i would feel as if a broken crank would fit that description for sure, then after i typed that in, i was thinking that there really is NO warranty on a motor that is shipped out in my opinion cause there gets to be too many hands in the situation and everyone keeps blaming other people.
SO, i come to this conclusion, people need to get their motors built and installed at the same place so when stuff like this happens, the place that did it will feel liable or willing to help out to their customer.
i have had a couple of things happen in the past year that i wish never happened due to this issue and this is why ALL my motors will come from here or a major reputable shop like GTM that does this same thing for a living and understands what it takes to deal with the consequences of issues like this...
not pointing fingers at anyone on this at all cause who knows what caused it but say it was all done at my shop, full build, motor swap, tune, ect. then there is no where to point fingers at but me
my honest opinion is that the crank had a stress crack in it for a while now, even though he has had the motor for 10 months now, he was running on a 9 pound pulley with a horrible tune (done at a local shop where he lives) and the car barely made 330 on a dynojet (at first) he said that he drove it like that for a month or little longer and then the car started running like crap. where you couldnt even give it half throttle. so he has slowly driven around for a while now until he had the time and money to get it all fixed up. this isnt his only vehicle so its not too big of a deal.
all the rod bearings still look fine, so it couldnt have been oil starvation for too long, if it was oil starvation then they all would look pretty worn by now. this broken crank still spun around in the motor so that would cause some serious bearing damage alone right there.
i am sure that the small stress cracks in motor got amplified by stepping up the boost to 11 psi and fully retuning the Procharged car to 400+ hp here recently and the car was running just fine.
i was just saying that with a year warranty on a motor as provided, i would feel as if a broken crank would fit that description for sure, then after i typed that in, i was thinking that there really is NO warranty on a motor that is shipped out in my opinion cause there gets to be too many hands in the situation and everyone keeps blaming other people.
SO, i come to this conclusion, people need to get their motors built and installed at the same place so when stuff like this happens, the place that did it will feel liable or willing to help out to their customer.
i have had a couple of things happen in the past year that i wish never happened due to this issue and this is why ALL my motors will come from here or a major reputable shop like GTM that does this same thing for a living and understands what it takes to deal with the consequences of issues like this...
not pointing fingers at anyone on this at all cause who knows what caused it but say it was all done at my shop, full build, motor swap, tune, ect. then there is no where to point fingers at but me
06-27-2007, 05:25 AM
#51
Originally Posted by Audible Mayhem
my honest opinion is that the crank had a stress crack in it for a while now,
Originally Posted by Audible Mayhem
all the rod bearings still look fine, so it couldnt have been oil starvation for too long, if it was oil starvation then they all would look pretty worn by now. this broken crank still spun around in the motor so that would cause some serious bearing damage alone right there.
I am interested to know what you think happened? Do you think the crank broke first and heat stressed the mains like that?
Originally Posted by Audible Mayhem
i am sure that the small stress cracks in motor got amplified by stepping up the boost to 11 psi and fully retuning the Procharged car to 400+ hp here recently and the car was running just fine.
Originally Posted by Audible Mayhem
i was just saying that with a year warranty on a motor as provided, i would feel as if a broken crank would fit that description for sure, then after i typed that in, i was thinking that there really is NO warranty on a motor that is shipped out in my opinion cause there gets to be too many hands in the situation and everyone keeps blaming other people.
SO, i come to this conclusion, people need to get their motors built and installed at the same place so when stuff like this happens, the place that did it will feel liable or willing to help out to their customer.
SO, i come to this conclusion, people need to get their motors built and installed at the same place so when stuff like this happens, the place that did it will feel liable or willing to help out to their customer.
Originally Posted by Audible Mayhem
i have had a couple of things happen in the past year that i wish never happened due to this issue and this is why ALL my motors will come from here or a major reputable shop like GTM that does this same thing for a living and understands what it takes to deal with the consequences of issues like this...
.
06-27-2007, 06:51 AM
#52
Just for the record here is some information on bearing failure:
"Dirt contamination often causes premature bearing failure. When dirt or other abrasives find their way between the crankshaft journal and bearing, it can become embedded in the soft bearing material. The softer the bearing material, the greater the embedability—which may or may not be a good thing depending on the size of the abrasive particles and the thickness of the bearing material.
If a particle is small and becomes deeply embedded in a relatively soft bearing material, it may cause no damage to the crankshaft journal. But if it displaces bearing material around itself or protrudes above the bearing surface, it can score the crankshaft.
Heat is another factor that accelerates bearing wear and may lead to failure if the bearings get hot enough. Bearings are primarily cooled by oil flow between the bearing and journal. Anything that disrupts or reduces the flow of oil not only raises bearing temperatures but also increases the risk of scoring or wiping the bearing. Conditions that can reduce oil flow and cause the bearings to run hot include a worn oil pump, restricted oil pickup screen, internal oil leaks, a low oil level in the crankcase, aerated oil (oil level too high), fuel diluted oil from excessive blowby or coolant contaminated oil from internal coolant leaks.
Temperatures in excess of 620 degrees can melt away the lead in copper/lead bearings and those with babbitt overlays. Because copper doesn’t melt until 1,980 degrees, burned copper/lead bearings will typically have a copper appearance instead of the normal dull gray appearance.
Misalignment is another condition that can accelerate bearing wear. If the center main bearings are worn more than the ones towards either end of the crankshaft, the crankshaft may be bent or the main bores may be out of alignment."
Now with the theory that the crank was cracked and that is what caused the failure won't it make sense that the crank would become out of balance and misaligned which would in turn would have damaged the #2 and #3 mains much more then the #4 bearing? Also wouldn't a cracked crank cause a balancing problem that would have caused a noticeable vibration??
I still personally think the seized #4 main bearing from oil starvation/heat caused the crank to stop rotating violently and in turn broke the crank at the #3 journal.
"Dirt contamination often causes premature bearing failure. When dirt or other abrasives find their way between the crankshaft journal and bearing, it can become embedded in the soft bearing material. The softer the bearing material, the greater the embedability—which may or may not be a good thing depending on the size of the abrasive particles and the thickness of the bearing material.
If a particle is small and becomes deeply embedded in a relatively soft bearing material, it may cause no damage to the crankshaft journal. But if it displaces bearing material around itself or protrudes above the bearing surface, it can score the crankshaft.
Heat is another factor that accelerates bearing wear and may lead to failure if the bearings get hot enough. Bearings are primarily cooled by oil flow between the bearing and journal. Anything that disrupts or reduces the flow of oil not only raises bearing temperatures but also increases the risk of scoring or wiping the bearing. Conditions that can reduce oil flow and cause the bearings to run hot include a worn oil pump, restricted oil pickup screen, internal oil leaks, a low oil level in the crankcase, aerated oil (oil level too high), fuel diluted oil from excessive blowby or coolant contaminated oil from internal coolant leaks.
Temperatures in excess of 620 degrees can melt away the lead in copper/lead bearings and those with babbitt overlays. Because copper doesn’t melt until 1,980 degrees, burned copper/lead bearings will typically have a copper appearance instead of the normal dull gray appearance.
Misalignment is another condition that can accelerate bearing wear. If the center main bearings are worn more than the ones towards either end of the crankshaft, the crankshaft may be bent or the main bores may be out of alignment."
Now with the theory that the crank was cracked and that is what caused the failure won't it make sense that the crank would become out of balance and misaligned which would in turn would have damaged the #2 and #3 mains much more then the #4 bearing? Also wouldn't a cracked crank cause a balancing problem that would have caused a noticeable vibration??
I still personally think the seized #4 main bearing from oil starvation/heat caused the crank to stop rotating violently and in turn broke the crank at the #3 journal.
06-27-2007, 10:20 AM
#53
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This place hasn't changed much.
Originally Posted by Kyle(Houston)
Just FYI. I have been building import motors since 1996. This isn't something I just started doing when the 350z became popular .
.
06-27-2007, 01:24 PM
#54
Originally Posted by Kyle(Houston)
Just FYI. I have been building import motors since 1996. This isn't something I just started doing when the 350z became popular
.not sure if this is a dig at me but please dont try that if you dont know my history....
i started building imports around the same time as you my friend...
yes i recently decided it was the time in my life to open a shop though
06-27-2007, 01:32 PM
#55
Originally Posted by Audible Mayhem
not sure if this is a dig at me but please dont try that if you dont know my history....
i started building imports around the same time as you my friend...
yes i recently decided it was the time in my life to open a shop though
i started building imports around the same time as you my friend...
yes i recently decided it was the time in my life to open a shop though
"a major reputable shop like GTM that does this same thing for a living and understands what it takes to deal with the consequences of issues like this..."
Just stating that I have been doing Import Performance and Racing for 11+ years. This is what I do for a living. This is not a "part time passion".
I have no idea what your history is or isn't.
06-27-2007, 01:37 PM
#56
Shift_Boost
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^^ I got you both beat guys, but that doesn't mean I know more than you. 1993 here. Kyle, Jeremy is not trying to argue but just talking out loud, throwing some thoughts out there. He's a helpful guy and not out to point the finger. Use his knowledge to try and help the situation. Two heads are better than one.
06-27-2007, 01:47 PM
#57
Originally Posted by Old School
^^ I got you both beat guys, but that doesn't mean I know more than you. 1993 here. Kyle, Jeremy is not trying to argue but just talking out loud, throwing some thoughts out there. He's a helpful guy and not out to point the finger. Use his knowledge to try and help the situation. Two heads are better than one.
As far as working with Jeremy/Jason look at post #37 where I said:
"I stand behind my work 100% and have no problems accepting responsibility if something was done wrong on my end. I would like to see more of what happened and have no problem what so ever talking to you and Jason about what could have caused this problem. There are a lot of possibilities that could have caused this to happen like crank walk, low oil pressure, detonation, etc etc. I am just as curious as you and Jason to know what exactly happened.
Let me know more as you find out and I will work with the both of you the best I can."
So I am open and willing
06-27-2007, 01:56 PM
#58
Shift_Boost
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^^ lol. Had a single cam turbo accord with check valves out the a$$ and homebrew tuning running 12s in 1993. =P
hope it all gets figured out. I hate to hear about these things.
hope it all gets figured out. I hate to hear about these things.
06-27-2007, 02:30 PM
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Check valves....lol. They were a way of life in the early and mid 90's! D16 greddy turbo kit anyone! LOL. Sorry for being off topic.
Originally Posted by Old School
^^ lol. Had a single cam turbo accord with check valves out the a$$ and homebrew tuning running 12s in 1993. =P
hope it all gets figured out. I hate to hear about these things.
hope it all gets figured out. I hate to hear about these things.