Methanol injection.. which kit?
08-27-2007, 11:24 AM
#41
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Originally Posted by Philthy
injection threads always get heated for some reason - people always want to crap on all other systems and think there's is the best... then there's all these worries about this fail safe and that fail safe, just get a good wideband already!
08-27-2007, 11:33 AM
#42
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this is getting a bit stupid going back and forth
the level of pump you "need" is determined by your peak hp, the nozzle size, # of nozzles and pump pressure, just like determining fuel pump size, etc.
So now you are talking about a 1500 cc pump? Certainly a massive amount of flow, though seems to me to be tremendous overkill for what these kits are originally designed to do.
I have no doubt its a great kit though
the level of pump you "need" is determined by your peak hp, the nozzle size, # of nozzles and pump pressure, just like determining fuel pump size, etc.
So now you are talking about a 1500 cc pump? Certainly a massive amount of flow, though seems to me to be tremendous overkill for what these kits are originally designed to do.
I have no doubt its a great kit though
08-27-2007, 12:04 PM
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Originally Posted by unchi
Show me their FLOW sensors Not line pressure sensors
AND the gauge to display that information. Please.
AND the gauge to display that information. Please.
We will have updated pictures of our flow meter shortly with the production packaging, until then you can see pictures of the prototype.
CM
08-27-2007, 12:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Philthy
Have to do with what, monitoring your a/f and insuring you're not running lean? If there's a problem with Meth flow, the a/f will be the first signs of a problem...
08-27-2007, 12:15 PM
#46
Originally Posted by THE TECH
Kinda doesn't make sense that you need to watch another gauge in order to know what the kit is doing though.
08-27-2007, 12:17 PM
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Originally Posted by coolingmist
We will have updated pictures of our flow meter shortly with the production packaging, until then you can see pictures of the prototype.
CM
you showed me that ...... 8-9 months ago
still not on the market yet?
soon as it is super. Can you inject based on INJ duty?
08-27-2007, 12:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Philthy
Well to each their own - having a boosted, meth injected car with out a wideband doesn't make ANY sense to me...
08-28-2007, 10:38 AM
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Originally Posted by unchi
great
you showed me that ...... 8-9 months ago
still not on the market yet?
soon as it is super. Can you inject based on INJ duty?
you showed me that ...... 8-9 months ago
still not on the market yet?
soon as it is super. Can you inject based on INJ duty?
Read the details:
http://www.srtforums.com/forums/show...26#post5180226
08-28-2007, 10:53 AM
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Originally Posted by coolingmist
yes we can inject based on Inj dutycycle. Its just a calculation based on a counter input. We can inject based on RPM , EGT, Air Intake, MAF, MAP, or anything else we want to. Yes its taken a while to get out, however its almost ready, just a few weeks away.
Read the details:
http://www.srtforums.com/forums/show...26#post5180226
Read the details:
http://www.srtforums.com/forums/show...26#post5180226
08-28-2007, 12:27 PM
#53
Originally Posted by unchi
Finding the signal to match engine’s demand:
Load sensors such as throttle position, mass air flow and MAP sensor are a prime signal source of engine load. But without RPM reference, these sensor are only representing only a two dimensional impression. For example, MAF sensor without RPM reference only measures air consumption, regardless of gearing or boost pressure. The engine could be cruising at high speed (less stress) or it can be travelling at 20mph in the rally stage under extreme load and high temperature stress. The same chuck of MAF signal cannot represent the engine running conditions.
Load sensors such as throttle position, mass air flow and MAP sensor are a prime signal source of engine load. But without RPM reference, these sensor are only representing only a two dimensional impression. For example, MAF sensor without RPM reference only measures air consumption, regardless of gearing or boost pressure. The engine could be cruising at high speed (less stress) or it can be travelling at 20mph in the rally stage under extreme load and high temperature stress. The same chuck of MAF signal cannot represent the engine running conditions.
Originally Posted by Philthy
Have to do with what, monitoring your a/f and insuring you're not running lean? If there's a problem with Meth flow, the a/f will be the first signs of a problem...
Proper WI implementation is tricky, like unchi has alluded to, but is utterly rewarding. Again, I have yet to see a properly implemented WI setup on written up on these boards. I am workign on mine, just busy with lots of other more pressing issues at the moment.
Originally Posted by coolingmist
yes we can inject based on Inj dutycycle. Its just a calculation based on a counter input. We can inject based on RPM , EGT, Air Intake, MAF, MAP, or anything else we want to. Yes its taken a while to get out, however its almost ready, just a few weeks away.
Read the details:
http://www.srtforums.com/forums/show...26#post5180226
Read the details:
http://www.srtforums.com/forums/show...26#post5180226
The latter in my opinion is a poor way of doing it, that's actually not only opinion but also fact. If it's the former two cases, then this is indeed a system worthy of consideration.
08-28-2007, 12:35 PM
#54
Originally Posted by unchi
Tha Perrin kit can only Flow 320CC/ min
TOTAL from the race pump
that is why this HFS kit was created
1500cc/ min flow was needed for cars that acutally wanted power
I have tuned every meth kit out there. I recommend only one
because it is the safest and most complete kit available
I prefer my customers to be over protected, rather than almost protected
when it come to thier motors health and well being.
The "clogged nozzle detector" is a pressure switch with an LED. (wont cut boost unsless you wire in a relay to it and even then wont work all that well, causes other boost issues)
It is useless if a line pops and meth is free flowing into the engine bay.
I could go on and on.
I'm not here to bash other products simply to inform people of exactly what they are getting into on these kits.
TOTAL from the race pump
that is why this HFS kit was created
1500cc/ min flow was needed for cars that acutally wanted power
I have tuned every meth kit out there. I recommend only one
because it is the safest and most complete kit available
I prefer my customers to be over protected, rather than almost protected
when it come to thier motors health and well being.
The "clogged nozzle detector" is a pressure switch with an LED. (wont cut boost unsless you wire in a relay to it and even then wont work all that well, causes other boost issues)
It is useless if a line pops and meth is free flowing into the engine bay.
I could go on and on.
I'm not here to bash other products simply to inform people of exactly what they are getting into on these kits.
Looks amazing. I'd love the minimal version the like of system 2c, as I will be using my EMS to control everything.
08-28-2007, 12:45 PM
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Originally Posted by GurgenPB
This is nice....BUT, the main question is HOW is teh water injection flow control is actuated. Is it done through a calibrated solenoid (ala FJO), an injector-like high speed valve (ala Aquamist HSV), or does it essentially regulate the water pump output?
The latter in my opinion is a poor way of doing it, that's actually not only opinion but also fact. If it's the former two cases, then this is indeed a system worthy of consideration.
The latter in my opinion is a poor way of doing it, that's actually not only opinion but also fact. If it's the former two cases, then this is indeed a system worthy of consideration.
There are a lot of kits on the market to choose from, I agree. There isn't any thing available on the market that we dont have now, or will not have in the next few weeks.
I'll have more details later, here is what we are releasing now.
so what is it?
1) Its a stand alone controller that can activate a water injection kit based on any input or combination of input.
2)Its a mapping device. There are 7 inputs, you can take any of these inputs and make a 0-5v programmable output. for instance, maybe you want to take your RPM and make a 0-5V output, or calculate injector duty cycle. This signal can be used to connect to a 3rd party controller or vari-cool or for what ever reason.
3) Safety Mechanism. You can read any of your engine inputs or your 3rd party devices (or coolingmist senders) and de-activate devices, etc. For example, it can read EGT, AIR INTAKE TEMPS, RPM, MAF, MAP, FLOW all the same time. If any of these are higher than they should be you can make it send a signal to your controller to send more flow or it can activate a solenoid to keep you from boosting, etc.
4) In the 2nd release of the software we will have vari-cool specific code. The unit can connect to Vari-cool and communicate via serial com. The Smart Injection module will know your duty cycle, min/max, tune, boost and engine parameters.
5) Its user flash-able. When we come out with new code, you simply connect to your PC and re-flash. We made sure a serial bootloader was built into Vari-Safe to make it convenient.
6) What ever you want here. It can activate extra fuel injectors, just think of the possiblities.
[b]7) Activation device. Activate or deactivate up to 5 different devices based on any input or combination of input.
Our goal is to make the most complete controller/safety system available. You will only be limited by your imagination.
Pricing will be announced shortly. this will be sold as a controller and as a kit. We will also have devices and senders that can connect to the various inputs available for sale.
Last edited by cmtech1; 08-28-2007 at 12:51 PM.
08-28-2007, 01:07 PM
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Originally Posted by GurgenPB
Right on! I have been saying this for years (literally) on this forum. The WI MUST follow fuel injection for a controlled/constant water/fuel ratio.
Well, if one actually tunes properly FOR the WI setup, then not only will the fuel but also timing be DRASTICALLY different with the WI on. And by the time you notice that your AFR is off, you will likely blow your engine or have severe detonation. In fact, forget the timing for a second and just concentrate on fuel. WI allows you to run much leaner AFRs SAFELY, provided the tuner is truly knowledgeable about WI and has tuned the system properly for it... So, if you WI goes out, how long do you think the engine will run for at 13:1 AFR (which is where it will go, especially if you were usign meth in water and not just water) at full boost??? Doubt you'd have time to lift off before damage is incurred.
Proper WI implementation is tricky, like unchi has alluded to, but is utterly rewarding. Again, I have yet to see a properly implemented WI setup on written up on these boards. I am workign on mine, just busy with lots of other more pressing issues at the moment.
This is nice....BUT, the main question is HOW is teh water injection flow control is actuated. Is it done through a calibrated solenoid (ala FJO), an injector-like high speed valve (ala Aquamist HSV), or does it essentially regulate the water pump output?
The latter in my opinion is a poor way of doing it, that's actually not only opinion but also fact. If it's the former two cases, then this is indeed a system worthy of consideration.
Well, if one actually tunes properly FOR the WI setup, then not only will the fuel but also timing be DRASTICALLY different with the WI on. And by the time you notice that your AFR is off, you will likely blow your engine or have severe detonation. In fact, forget the timing for a second and just concentrate on fuel. WI allows you to run much leaner AFRs SAFELY, provided the tuner is truly knowledgeable about WI and has tuned the system properly for it... So, if you WI goes out, how long do you think the engine will run for at 13:1 AFR (which is where it will go, especially if you were usign meth in water and not just water) at full boost??? Doubt you'd have time to lift off before damage is incurred.
Proper WI implementation is tricky, like unchi has alluded to, but is utterly rewarding. Again, I have yet to see a properly implemented WI setup on written up on these boards. I am workign on mine, just busy with lots of other more pressing issues at the moment.
This is nice....BUT, the main question is HOW is teh water injection flow control is actuated. Is it done through a calibrated solenoid (ala FJO), an injector-like high speed valve (ala Aquamist HSV), or does it essentially regulate the water pump output?
The latter in my opinion is a poor way of doing it, that's actually not only opinion but also fact. If it's the former two cases, then this is indeed a system worthy of consideration.
Gurgen i have other options available for EMS that can control extra injectors
or the hfs KIT
drop me a pm and we can chat
08-28-2007, 01:57 PM
#57
Gurgen, not trying to pick a fight, really... But how many cars have you personally owned with WI...? Just trying to establish a reference point for your 'end all be all' on the WI subject...
For you to call out the Aquamist HSV as being 'poor way of doing it, that's actually not only opinion but also fact...' is very arrogant and ignorant on your part. Aquamist has been around the WI circle for a long time, and although I'm not currently using their system, for you to bash them (your basically a noob on the subject doing this too) is completely out of line.
Seems theory and reality cross paths in your world often...
For you to call out the Aquamist HSV as being 'poor way of doing it, that's actually not only opinion but also fact...' is very arrogant and ignorant on your part. Aquamist has been around the WI circle for a long time, and although I'm not currently using their system, for you to bash them (your basically a noob on the subject doing this too) is completely out of line.
Seems theory and reality cross paths in your world often...
08-28-2007, 03:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Philthy
Gurgen, not trying to pick a fight, really... But how many cars have you personally owned with WI...? Just trying to establish a reference point for your 'end all be all' on the WI subject...
For you to call out the Aquamist HSV as being 'poor way of doing it, that's actually not only opinion but also fact...' is very arrogant and ignorant on your part. Aquamist has been around the WI circle for a long time, and although I'm not currently using their system, for you to bash them (your basically a noob on the subject doing this too) is completely out of line.
Seems theory and reality cross paths in your world often...
For you to call out the Aquamist HSV as being 'poor way of doing it, that's actually not only opinion but also fact...' is very arrogant and ignorant on your part. Aquamist has been around the WI circle for a long time, and although I'm not currently using their system, for you to bash them (your basically a noob on the subject doing this too) is completely out of line.
Seems theory and reality cross paths in your world often...
08-28-2007, 03:39 PM
#59
Originally Posted by Philthy
Gurgen, not trying to pick a fight, really... But how many cars have you personally owned with WI...? Just trying to establish a reference point for your 'end all be all' on the WI subject...
For you to call out the Aquamist HSV as being 'poor way of doing it, that's actually not only opinion but also fact...' is very arrogant and ignorant on your part. Aquamist has been around the WI circle for a long time, and although I'm not currently using their system, for you to bash them (your basically a noob on the subject doing this too) is completely out of line.
Seems theory and reality cross paths in your world often...
For you to call out the Aquamist HSV as being 'poor way of doing it, that's actually not only opinion but also fact...' is very arrogant and ignorant on your part. Aquamist has been around the WI circle for a long time, and although I'm not currently using their system, for you to bash them (your basically a noob on the subject doing this too) is completely out of line.
Seems theory and reality cross paths in your world often...
Phil,
I too am not trying to pick a fight, but you really need to read what I wrote more carefully, before you make a fool of yourself. The 'LATTER' refers to pump voltage regulation method of water flow rate, NOT the HSV/FJO. Read the sentence again.
...lol
The Aquamist HSV is the "endall", period, given their impeccable reputation among other things. FJO's method is also good, as their control module's (which is also fully firmware upgradeable) output is calibrated for actual flow, and not just straight duty cycle of the solenoid. Hence, that's also a good system. I am partial to Aquamist....
Also, Phil, I do not need to have owned a water injection system to comment on one. Case in point.... you have been running a Snow kit on your STI, simultaneously exhibiting knowledge about water injection principles (i.e. see your wideband comment above) that definitely do NOT fit your implied theory of "owning is knowing". Again I was not gonna go there, and my initial comment about your WB use as a failsafe against WI failure was very civil and non-disparaging.
On a different note... the reference point for anyone's evaluation of what is actually true and what is false has to be based on research of objective scientific data, and not what one company says versus another, not what some guy owned and "is happy with". It is difficult to discern what really works and what doesn't.
Last edited by GurgenPB; 08-28-2007 at 03:49 PM.
08-28-2007, 03:40 PM
#60
Originally Posted by unchi
Finally !!! someone who knows what they are saying !!
Gurgen i have other options available for EMS that can control extra injectors
or the hfs KIT
drop me a pm and we can chat
Gurgen i have other options available for EMS that can control extra injectors
or the hfs KIT
drop me a pm and we can chat