so who's going to be the first to switch to E85 really?
03-21-2008, 11:23 PM
#41
not enough stations around here to disgnate me to do it yet, but have thought about it. heard the pro-efi could be set up to do the ffv though so you could toss in e85 when ya could, then super when you have to and it will adjust accordingly even if you have half a tank of each.
03-21-2008, 11:31 PM
#42
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Originally Posted by overZealous1
not enough stations around here to disgnate me to do it yet, but have thought about it. heard the pro-efi could be set up to do the ffv though so you could toss in e85 when ya could, then super when you have to and it will adjust accordingly even if you have half a tank of each.
03-22-2008, 06:07 AM
#43
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^^^ 
THis is something that proefi can do. Its another cool feature that you can implement, and is full flex fuel capability, using OEM flex fuel sensors. What this means for you is your car can adjust fuel, timing, and boost based upon the mix of ethanol vs pump gas in your tank on the fly. No more worries about the actual blend of E70, E85 or E98 vs pump in your tank. Just fill it up and go!
This will be a great feature to have built in with the PRO EFi , as it was previously only available to guys running Motec's after doing some custom mapping.
THis is something that proefi can do. Its another cool feature that you can implement, and is full flex fuel capability, using OEM flex fuel sensors. What this means for you is your car can adjust fuel, timing, and boost based upon the mix of ethanol vs pump gas in your tank on the fly. No more worries about the actual blend of E70, E85 or E98 vs pump in your tank. Just fill it up and go!
This will be a great feature to have built in with the PRO EFi , as it was previously only available to guys running Motec's after doing some custom mapping.
Last edited by IIQuickSilverII; 03-22-2008 at 01:42 PM.
03-22-2008, 06:26 AM
#44
Originally Posted by G35JCC
When you say petrol are you referring to gasoline or oil? I'm going to assume gas. With that being said you mention we are going to run out of oil/gas in the next few decades, how many decades is a few? Where are you getting your info/proof? To make such a statement without any proof to back it up is just inflamatory and irresponsible. If you were Exxon's Chief Geologist(which I doubt) I might believe you, but since you offer no credentials as well as proof I have no reason to believe you.
we will run out.
03-22-2008, 07:29 AM
#45
Anyways, I have just been doing some research on it and my friend is switching his 2JZ RWD Probe to it.
It seems that there is the cheaper potential to push higher boost without having to buy race gas. It seems that a bunch of the Supra guys are hacing lots of fun with E85!
It seems that there is the cheaper potential to push higher boost without having to buy race gas. It seems that a bunch of the Supra guys are hacing lots of fun with E85!
03-22-2008, 08:21 AM
#46
I would make the switch but....
It would be very expensive to buy a CJM dual tank pump assembly, buy 1000+ injectors, retune, and there is no E85 available within 100mi of my location. I really would like to do it instead of giving my money to the Arabs but it's just not practical.
JET
It would be very expensive to buy a CJM dual tank pump assembly, buy 1000+ injectors, retune, and there is no E85 available within 100mi of my location. I really would like to do it instead of giving my money to the Arabs but it's just not practical.
JET
03-23-2008, 07:15 AM
#48
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Originally Posted by phunk
its almost all in the fuel system. you should use all teflon hose, which every CJM fuel system is made of anyway... so lots of you guys can already do it. However, the pump and injectors need to be very oversized. a high HP twin turbo Z will need twin fuel pumps. 1000cc injectors should be a min also, so i guess you really do need a standalone like the FCON just due to that... given you wont have to scale the injectors nearly as much for E85,
03-23-2008, 07:20 AM
#49
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_River_(Utah)
The discovery of petroleum at the Ashley Field after World War II has led to the exploitation of oil and natural gas in the region. The Green River Basin is said to have the largest fossil fuel deposits in the world [2], in the form of oil shale. There is estimated to be between 500 billion and 1.1 trillion barrels (80 and 175 km³) of potentially recoverable oil in the basin[3].
The Green River Basin contains the world's largest known deposit of trona ore near Green River, Wyoming. Soda ash mining from trona veins 900 and 1600 feet (300 and 500 m) deep is a major industrial activity in the area, employing over 2000 persons at four mines. The mining operation is less expensive for production of soda ash in the United States than the synthetic Solvay process, which predominates in the rest of the world.
The area has been mined for uranium.
The discovery of petroleum at the Ashley Field after World War II has led to the exploitation of oil and natural gas in the region. The Green River Basin is said to have the largest fossil fuel deposits in the world [2], in the form of oil shale. There is estimated to be between 500 billion and 1.1 trillion barrels (80 and 175 km³) of potentially recoverable oil in the basin[3].
The Green River Basin contains the world's largest known deposit of trona ore near Green River, Wyoming. Soda ash mining from trona veins 900 and 1600 feet (300 and 500 m) deep is a major industrial activity in the area, employing over 2000 persons at four mines. The mining operation is less expensive for production of soda ash in the United States than the synthetic Solvay process, which predominates in the rest of the world.
The area has been mined for uranium.
03-24-2008, 06:25 PM
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Why is E85 a better fuel ?
Ethanol and is a very turbo friendly fuel for many reasons.
1. It has a much higher evaporative cooling power than gasoline so the intake air charge in the cylinder is significantly cooler that it is with a comparable mixture of gasoline --- that means higher VE.
2. Its octane as blended in E85 is about 100, its blending octane when added to gasoline is rated at 118, so it is a very cost effective octane booster.
3. Ethanol burns faster than gasoline but has a slightly longer ignition delay during the slow burn phase of combustion so the engine does not do as much negative work fighting rising cylinder pressures due to large ignition advances. The total ignition advance for E85 is almost identical to the ideal advance for gasoline so it does not cause the ECU problems when you mix them.
4. At proper mixture you actually are releasing more energy in the cylinder due to the higher quantity of fuel you can burn. ( Ethanol can burn effeciently at much richer mixtures than gasoline can) That means about a 5% increase in energy release all by itself.
5. Peak combustion pressures are actually lower for ethanol than for gasoline but the cylinder pressures stay higher longer, so you have more (longer) crank angle that is usable by the engine. This lower peak cylinder pressure also helps with detonaton control.
6. It will, at proper mixtures lower EGT's by around 200 deg F, but due to the higher quantity of exhaust gas products it produces you do not lose any spool up (in fact I would wager spool up is better).
7. It is much cheaper ( if you go to a station that is not trying to price gouge).
How much will my miles per gallon of fuel drop with E85?
The only negative to E85 is that it gives a lower fuel milage on a gallon for gallon basis to gasoline. The actual difference in energy content between straight gasoline and E85 is about 27%.
The drop in milage is not as significant as you would think based on that difference due to the higher effeciency of the ethanol as a high performance fuel. This winter I was getting about 92% of the fuel milage I would get on gasoline on 100% E85.
The lower milage is not really a big deal, ethanol has lower energy per gallon but your reduction in milage is not nearly as large as that difference would imply. Due to the higher torque,you use slightly smaller throttle openings to get the same level of preformance, and due to the greater quantity of combustion products (more moles of gas) per lb of fuel the engine effeciency actually goes up slightly. My long term fuel milage average is in the vicinity of 24.5 mpg, with pump gas, and with 75% ethanol blend, I was getting just over 23 mpg driven normally. Recently I have been flogging the crap out of the car to sort out new boost controller settings for my new turbo (went from a 13T to a 16G). Given I now have a larger turbo and all that is hardly a noticable fuel milage drop. I have gotten around 300 -345 miles/tank on straight gasoline when I was bone stock, and I expect to get from 280 - 310 miles per tank on the E-85 based on my notes of fuel consumption and accounting for the unusually hard driving I have been doing the last week working on the boost controller settings. I have gotten around 300 -345 miles/tank on straight gasoline when I was bone stock, and I expect to get from 280 - 310 miles per tank on the E-85 based on my notes of fuel consumption and accounting for the unusually hard driving I have been doing the last week working on the boost controller settings.
In very cold weather <20deg FI don't go above about 90% E85 to improve cold starting and speed up engine warm up a bit. Other than that the car loves E85 and so does my wallet ---- $1.89/gallon (6/2005) for 100 octane fuel is hard to argue with. It only drops my fuel milage a small amount. I get 93.76% of my gasoline milage when driving conservatively in my WRX with the larger injectors and high ethanol fuel blends.
will a wide band O2 sensor accurately read fuel air mixtures with E85 blends ?
To get an accurate AFR reading you need to switch the meter to Lambda or equivalence ratio setting rather than AFR. Most O2 sensors assume you are running gasoline and will report a stoichimetric mixture as 14.7:1 which is the proper value for gasoline. E85 has a Stoichemetric mixture of between 9.7 - 10:1 and a max power mixture of about 6.98-8.5:1 or so, where with gasoline it is 12.5:1-to 13.1.
If you must use an O2 sensor that only reports gasoline AFR information simply divide the numbers it reports by 1.47 - 1.50.
On gasoline, my ECU is supposed to give a mixture of 11.5:1 and on 100% E85 the dyno's wide band reported an AFR of 11.6:1. That means that my true AFR on the E85 was about 7.8:1 which is right in the middle of max power mixtures for E85.
full info:
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=803341
Ethanol and is a very turbo friendly fuel for many reasons.
1. It has a much higher evaporative cooling power than gasoline so the intake air charge in the cylinder is significantly cooler that it is with a comparable mixture of gasoline --- that means higher VE.
2. Its octane as blended in E85 is about 100, its blending octane when added to gasoline is rated at 118, so it is a very cost effective octane booster.
3. Ethanol burns faster than gasoline but has a slightly longer ignition delay during the slow burn phase of combustion so the engine does not do as much negative work fighting rising cylinder pressures due to large ignition advances. The total ignition advance for E85 is almost identical to the ideal advance for gasoline so it does not cause the ECU problems when you mix them.
4. At proper mixture you actually are releasing more energy in the cylinder due to the higher quantity of fuel you can burn. ( Ethanol can burn effeciently at much richer mixtures than gasoline can) That means about a 5% increase in energy release all by itself.
5. Peak combustion pressures are actually lower for ethanol than for gasoline but the cylinder pressures stay higher longer, so you have more (longer) crank angle that is usable by the engine. This lower peak cylinder pressure also helps with detonaton control.
6. It will, at proper mixtures lower EGT's by around 200 deg F, but due to the higher quantity of exhaust gas products it produces you do not lose any spool up (in fact I would wager spool up is better).
7. It is much cheaper ( if you go to a station that is not trying to price gouge).
How much will my miles per gallon of fuel drop with E85?
The only negative to E85 is that it gives a lower fuel milage on a gallon for gallon basis to gasoline. The actual difference in energy content between straight gasoline and E85 is about 27%.
The drop in milage is not as significant as you would think based on that difference due to the higher effeciency of the ethanol as a high performance fuel. This winter I was getting about 92% of the fuel milage I would get on gasoline on 100% E85.
The lower milage is not really a big deal, ethanol has lower energy per gallon but your reduction in milage is not nearly as large as that difference would imply. Due to the higher torque,you use slightly smaller throttle openings to get the same level of preformance, and due to the greater quantity of combustion products (more moles of gas) per lb of fuel the engine effeciency actually goes up slightly. My long term fuel milage average is in the vicinity of 24.5 mpg, with pump gas, and with 75% ethanol blend, I was getting just over 23 mpg driven normally. Recently I have been flogging the crap out of the car to sort out new boost controller settings for my new turbo (went from a 13T to a 16G). Given I now have a larger turbo and all that is hardly a noticable fuel milage drop. I have gotten around 300 -345 miles/tank on straight gasoline when I was bone stock, and I expect to get from 280 - 310 miles per tank on the E-85 based on my notes of fuel consumption and accounting for the unusually hard driving I have been doing the last week working on the boost controller settings. I have gotten around 300 -345 miles/tank on straight gasoline when I was bone stock, and I expect to get from 280 - 310 miles per tank on the E-85 based on my notes of fuel consumption and accounting for the unusually hard driving I have been doing the last week working on the boost controller settings.
In very cold weather <20deg FI don't go above about 90% E85 to improve cold starting and speed up engine warm up a bit. Other than that the car loves E85 and so does my wallet ---- $1.89/gallon (6/2005) for 100 octane fuel is hard to argue with. It only drops my fuel milage a small amount. I get 93.76% of my gasoline milage when driving conservatively in my WRX with the larger injectors and high ethanol fuel blends.
will a wide band O2 sensor accurately read fuel air mixtures with E85 blends ?
To get an accurate AFR reading you need to switch the meter to Lambda or equivalence ratio setting rather than AFR. Most O2 sensors assume you are running gasoline and will report a stoichimetric mixture as 14.7:1 which is the proper value for gasoline. E85 has a Stoichemetric mixture of between 9.7 - 10:1 and a max power mixture of about 6.98-8.5:1 or so, where with gasoline it is 12.5:1-to 13.1.
If you must use an O2 sensor that only reports gasoline AFR information simply divide the numbers it reports by 1.47 - 1.50.
On gasoline, my ECU is supposed to give a mixture of 11.5:1 and on 100% E85 the dyno's wide band reported an AFR of 11.6:1. That means that my true AFR on the E85 was about 7.8:1 which is right in the middle of max power mixtures for E85.
full info:
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=803341
03-24-2008, 06:34 PM
#52
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Originally Posted by kacz07
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_River_(Utah)
The discovery of petroleum at the Ashley Field after World War II has led to the exploitation of oil and natural gas in the region. The Green River Basin is said to have the largest fossil fuel deposits in the world [2], in the form of oil shale. There is estimated to be between 500 billion and 1.1 trillion barrels (80 and 175 km³) of potentially recoverable oil in the basin[3].
The Green River Basin contains the world's largest known deposit of trona ore near Green River, Wyoming. Soda ash mining from trona veins 900 and 1600 feet (300 and 500 m) deep is a major industrial activity in the area, employing over 2000 persons at four mines. The mining operation is less expensive for production of soda ash in the United States than the synthetic Solvay process, which predominates in the rest of the world.
The area has been mined for uranium.
The discovery of petroleum at the Ashley Field after World War II has led to the exploitation of oil and natural gas in the region. The Green River Basin is said to have the largest fossil fuel deposits in the world [2], in the form of oil shale. There is estimated to be between 500 billion and 1.1 trillion barrels (80 and 175 km³) of potentially recoverable oil in the basin[3].
The Green River Basin contains the world's largest known deposit of trona ore near Green River, Wyoming. Soda ash mining from trona veins 900 and 1600 feet (300 and 500 m) deep is a major industrial activity in the area, employing over 2000 persons at four mines. The mining operation is less expensive for production of soda ash in the United States than the synthetic Solvay process, which predominates in the rest of the world.
The area has been mined for uranium.
The next time I claim that we will "run out" of oil resources to sustain our current increasing level of consumption I'll write up a 50 page document to prove it.
03-24-2008, 06:53 PM
#53
New Member
iTrader: (13)
Originally Posted by rogatti
Why is E85 a better fuel ?
Ethanol and is a very turbo friendly fuel for many reasons.
1. It has a much higher evaporative cooling power than gasoline so the intake air charge in the cylinder is significantly cooler that it is with a comparable mixture of gasoline --- that means higher VE.
2. Its octane as blended in E85 is about 100, its blending octane when added to gasoline is rated at 118, so it is a very cost effective octane booster.
3. Ethanol burns faster than gasoline but has a slightly longer ignition delay during the slow burn phase of combustion so the engine does not do as much negative work fighting rising cylinder pressures due to large ignition advances. The total ignition advance for E85 is almost identical to the ideal advance for gasoline so it does not cause the ECU problems when you mix them.
4. At proper mixture you actually are releasing more energy in the cylinder due to the higher quantity of fuel you can burn. ( Ethanol can burn effeciently at much richer mixtures than gasoline can) That means about a 5% increase in energy release all by itself.
5. Peak combustion pressures are actually lower for ethanol than for gasoline but the cylinder pressures stay higher longer, so you have more (longer) crank angle that is usable by the engine. This lower peak cylinder pressure also helps with detonaton control.
6. It will, at proper mixtures lower EGT's by around 200 deg F, but due to the higher quantity of exhaust gas products it produces you do not lose any spool up (in fact I would wager spool up is better).
7. It is much cheaper ( if you go to a station that is not trying to price gouge).
How much will my miles per gallon of fuel drop with E85?
The only negative to E85 is that it gives a lower fuel milage on a gallon for gallon basis to gasoline. The actual difference in energy content between straight gasoline and E85 is about 27%.
The drop in milage is not as significant as you would think based on that difference due to the higher effeciency of the ethanol as a high performance fuel. This winter I was getting about 92% of the fuel milage I would get on gasoline on 100% E85.
The lower milage is not really a big deal, ethanol has lower energy per gallon but your reduction in milage is not nearly as large as that difference would imply. Due to the higher torque,you use slightly smaller throttle openings to get the same level of preformance, and due to the greater quantity of combustion products (more moles of gas) per lb of fuel the engine effeciency actually goes up slightly. My long term fuel milage average is in the vicinity of 24.5 mpg, with pump gas, and with 75% ethanol blend, I was getting just over 23 mpg driven normally. Recently I have been flogging the crap out of the car to sort out new boost controller settings for my new turbo (went from a 13T to a 16G). Given I now have a larger turbo and all that is hardly a noticable fuel milage drop. I have gotten around 300 -345 miles/tank on straight gasoline when I was bone stock, and I expect to get from 280 - 310 miles per tank on the E-85 based on my notes of fuel consumption and accounting for the unusually hard driving I have been doing the last week working on the boost controller settings. I have gotten around 300 -345 miles/tank on straight gasoline when I was bone stock, and I expect to get from 280 - 310 miles per tank on the E-85 based on my notes of fuel consumption and accounting for the unusually hard driving I have been doing the last week working on the boost controller settings.
In very cold weather <20deg FI don't go above about 90% E85 to improve cold starting and speed up engine warm up a bit. Other than that the car loves E85 and so does my wallet ---- $1.89/gallon (6/2005) for 100 octane fuel is hard to argue with. It only drops my fuel milage a small amount. I get 93.76% of my gasoline milage when driving conservatively in my WRX with the larger injectors and high ethanol fuel blends.
will a wide band O2 sensor accurately read fuel air mixtures with E85 blends ?
To get an accurate AFR reading you need to switch the meter to Lambda or equivalence ratio setting rather than AFR. Most O2 sensors assume you are running gasoline and will report a stoichimetric mixture as 14.7:1 which is the proper value for gasoline. E85 has a Stoichemetric mixture of between 9.7 - 10:1 and a max power mixture of about 6.98-8.5:1 or so, where with gasoline it is 12.5:1-to 13.1.
If you must use an O2 sensor that only reports gasoline AFR information simply divide the numbers it reports by 1.47 - 1.50.
On gasoline, my ECU is supposed to give a mixture of 11.5:1 and on 100% E85 the dyno's wide band reported an AFR of 11.6:1. That means that my true AFR on the E85 was about 7.8:1 which is right in the middle of max power mixtures for E85.
full info:
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=803341
Ethanol and is a very turbo friendly fuel for many reasons.
1. It has a much higher evaporative cooling power than gasoline so the intake air charge in the cylinder is significantly cooler that it is with a comparable mixture of gasoline --- that means higher VE.
2. Its octane as blended in E85 is about 100, its blending octane when added to gasoline is rated at 118, so it is a very cost effective octane booster.
3. Ethanol burns faster than gasoline but has a slightly longer ignition delay during the slow burn phase of combustion so the engine does not do as much negative work fighting rising cylinder pressures due to large ignition advances. The total ignition advance for E85 is almost identical to the ideal advance for gasoline so it does not cause the ECU problems when you mix them.
4. At proper mixture you actually are releasing more energy in the cylinder due to the higher quantity of fuel you can burn. ( Ethanol can burn effeciently at much richer mixtures than gasoline can) That means about a 5% increase in energy release all by itself.
5. Peak combustion pressures are actually lower for ethanol than for gasoline but the cylinder pressures stay higher longer, so you have more (longer) crank angle that is usable by the engine. This lower peak cylinder pressure also helps with detonaton control.
6. It will, at proper mixtures lower EGT's by around 200 deg F, but due to the higher quantity of exhaust gas products it produces you do not lose any spool up (in fact I would wager spool up is better).
7. It is much cheaper ( if you go to a station that is not trying to price gouge).
How much will my miles per gallon of fuel drop with E85?
The only negative to E85 is that it gives a lower fuel milage on a gallon for gallon basis to gasoline. The actual difference in energy content between straight gasoline and E85 is about 27%.
The drop in milage is not as significant as you would think based on that difference due to the higher effeciency of the ethanol as a high performance fuel. This winter I was getting about 92% of the fuel milage I would get on gasoline on 100% E85.
The lower milage is not really a big deal, ethanol has lower energy per gallon but your reduction in milage is not nearly as large as that difference would imply. Due to the higher torque,you use slightly smaller throttle openings to get the same level of preformance, and due to the greater quantity of combustion products (more moles of gas) per lb of fuel the engine effeciency actually goes up slightly. My long term fuel milage average is in the vicinity of 24.5 mpg, with pump gas, and with 75% ethanol blend, I was getting just over 23 mpg driven normally. Recently I have been flogging the crap out of the car to sort out new boost controller settings for my new turbo (went from a 13T to a 16G). Given I now have a larger turbo and all that is hardly a noticable fuel milage drop. I have gotten around 300 -345 miles/tank on straight gasoline when I was bone stock, and I expect to get from 280 - 310 miles per tank on the E-85 based on my notes of fuel consumption and accounting for the unusually hard driving I have been doing the last week working on the boost controller settings. I have gotten around 300 -345 miles/tank on straight gasoline when I was bone stock, and I expect to get from 280 - 310 miles per tank on the E-85 based on my notes of fuel consumption and accounting for the unusually hard driving I have been doing the last week working on the boost controller settings.
In very cold weather <20deg FI don't go above about 90% E85 to improve cold starting and speed up engine warm up a bit. Other than that the car loves E85 and so does my wallet ---- $1.89/gallon (6/2005) for 100 octane fuel is hard to argue with. It only drops my fuel milage a small amount. I get 93.76% of my gasoline milage when driving conservatively in my WRX with the larger injectors and high ethanol fuel blends.
will a wide band O2 sensor accurately read fuel air mixtures with E85 blends ?
To get an accurate AFR reading you need to switch the meter to Lambda or equivalence ratio setting rather than AFR. Most O2 sensors assume you are running gasoline and will report a stoichimetric mixture as 14.7:1 which is the proper value for gasoline. E85 has a Stoichemetric mixture of between 9.7 - 10:1 and a max power mixture of about 6.98-8.5:1 or so, where with gasoline it is 12.5:1-to 13.1.
If you must use an O2 sensor that only reports gasoline AFR information simply divide the numbers it reports by 1.47 - 1.50.
On gasoline, my ECU is supposed to give a mixture of 11.5:1 and on 100% E85 the dyno's wide band reported an AFR of 11.6:1. That means that my true AFR on the E85 was about 7.8:1 which is right in the middle of max power mixtures for E85.
full info:
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=803341
now i jsut need to find the closes E85 gas station to see if i wanna try this or not
03-24-2008, 09:20 PM
#54
Since I am preparing to get my Z out of storage and immediately install the twin pumps and run E85, I have been doing some research.
Aluminum, such as in our CJM fuel systems (the rails, S2 output fitting, return correction fitting, and entire twin pump assembly), is not supposed to be used at all with E85.
Some say that the anodizing protects them, and I believe that may be the case since I have seen anodized aluminum hold up.
Those of you with a CJM system, you will need to verify what parts of your system are or are not anodized. All of the parts I have mentioned, except for the twin pumps, do not come standard as anodized and may or may not be in your system.
Due to the extra corrosion expected with the E85, I will be installed an alcohol compatable filter. I am hoping to find one that goes down to 10 microns. The corrosion from the E85 can cause you a lot of debris in your fuel system, especially the first few tanks. They say to clean/replace your fuel filter every 50 miles for a few times after the conversion.
That is not possible with a stock fuel pump assembly as the filter is non-replaceable. Keep that in mind everyone. I am reading reports of very contaminated filters when the conversion is first made.
Right now I am concerned with the fuel tank itself. I am reading that a bare unplated steel tank should be fine, but a tank that is Terne (lead-tin-alloy) plated steel is not fine, I assume the plating will flake off and contaminate the fuel system. Does anyone here know how to confirm one way or the other. The inside of our tank APPEARS unplated, but I dont know what color/tint that common plating would have. However, I would assume that we do not have this plating on the tank since its a modern vehicle and its expected to be used with oxygenated gasolines... should be ok, but it would be nice to get a two thumbs up from whoever designed that gas tank!
The more I think about it, the less I worry. I just worry a little about the fittings in the fuel system too. While earlier fuel systems of ours used nearly all anodized aluminum fittings, they are all steel fittings now with some type of coating making them either silver or yellowish. I need to contact the manufacturer and find out if these coatings are safe for the alcohol.
I read this entire article, I recommend it. Its decently long but its really good information.
http://www.e85fuel.com/pdf/e85_technical_booklet.pdf
I also found this article reassuring (geared more towards retuning performance gasoline engines with E85):
http://www.e85mustangs.com/tuning.html
And here is a good article from some buddies at AMS:
http://www.fuelsrc.com/index.php/200...h-and-testing/
Just for fun, here is a website that shows a conversion table for lambda to A/F. It doesnt include E85, but it does have methonal (still not quite close)... but interesting either way:
http://www.ontronic.com/lambda_meters.php
Between reading all those, and having significant hands on exposure to E85 conversions in twin turbo vipers, I feel pretty comfortable taking on this job... its not that its hard anyway, its just that you want to have the information before you do it. I will be sad if I drop my twin pump assembly into the E85 and it melts away like its in acid (not going to happen haha).
I want to measure and find the absolute highest blend of ethanol E85 before tuning... since the winterized blend will run it richer. I would rather start with the higher ethanol content so that I dont have to risk running lean if I fill up at a pump running a blend with more ethanol.
Aluminum, such as in our CJM fuel systems (the rails, S2 output fitting, return correction fitting, and entire twin pump assembly), is not supposed to be used at all with E85.
Some say that the anodizing protects them, and I believe that may be the case since I have seen anodized aluminum hold up.
Those of you with a CJM system, you will need to verify what parts of your system are or are not anodized. All of the parts I have mentioned, except for the twin pumps, do not come standard as anodized and may or may not be in your system.
Due to the extra corrosion expected with the E85, I will be installed an alcohol compatable filter. I am hoping to find one that goes down to 10 microns. The corrosion from the E85 can cause you a lot of debris in your fuel system, especially the first few tanks. They say to clean/replace your fuel filter every 50 miles for a few times after the conversion.
That is not possible with a stock fuel pump assembly as the filter is non-replaceable. Keep that in mind everyone. I am reading reports of very contaminated filters when the conversion is first made.
Right now I am concerned with the fuel tank itself. I am reading that a bare unplated steel tank should be fine, but a tank that is Terne (lead-tin-alloy) plated steel is not fine, I assume the plating will flake off and contaminate the fuel system. Does anyone here know how to confirm one way or the other. The inside of our tank APPEARS unplated, but I dont know what color/tint that common plating would have. However, I would assume that we do not have this plating on the tank since its a modern vehicle and its expected to be used with oxygenated gasolines... should be ok, but it would be nice to get a two thumbs up from whoever designed that gas tank!
The more I think about it, the less I worry. I just worry a little about the fittings in the fuel system too. While earlier fuel systems of ours used nearly all anodized aluminum fittings, they are all steel fittings now with some type of coating making them either silver or yellowish. I need to contact the manufacturer and find out if these coatings are safe for the alcohol.
I read this entire article, I recommend it. Its decently long but its really good information.
http://www.e85fuel.com/pdf/e85_technical_booklet.pdf
I also found this article reassuring (geared more towards retuning performance gasoline engines with E85):
http://www.e85mustangs.com/tuning.html
And here is a good article from some buddies at AMS:
http://www.fuelsrc.com/index.php/200...h-and-testing/
Just for fun, here is a website that shows a conversion table for lambda to A/F. It doesnt include E85, but it does have methonal (still not quite close)... but interesting either way:
http://www.ontronic.com/lambda_meters.php
Between reading all those, and having significant hands on exposure to E85 conversions in twin turbo vipers, I feel pretty comfortable taking on this job... its not that its hard anyway, its just that you want to have the information before you do it. I will be sad if I drop my twin pump assembly into the E85 and it melts away like its in acid (not going to happen haha).
I want to measure and find the absolute highest blend of ethanol E85 before tuning... since the winterized blend will run it richer. I would rather start with the higher ethanol content so that I dont have to risk running lean if I fill up at a pump running a blend with more ethanol.
Last edited by phunk; 03-24-2008 at 09:28 PM.
03-24-2008, 09:57 PM
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we (the world) will not run out of oil... supply and demand will take care of that long before it ever happens. oil will become so expensive: 1. less oil will be used. 2. the the market will adjust and new alternatives will pop up. the world is not going to end in 10 years. society will be safe. the sky is not falling.
when i was young there was no internet no cell phones. when my parents were young there was no t.v.. when my parents parents were young there were no airplanes, cars, etc... get the picture
why should we all live in fear of something that will never happen. are we (humans) so dumb that we can't create or adapt to new methods of energy?
sorry to the OP this has nothing to do with what you were talkin' about, i just felt a need to give my 2 cents.
oh yeah... where i live (hawaii) is about as far from E85 as one can get, so i don't really have anything to worry about, since there is none sold here
when i was young there was no internet no cell phones. when my parents were young there was no t.v.. when my parents parents were young there were no airplanes, cars, etc... get the picture
why should we all live in fear of something that will never happen. are we (humans) so dumb that we can't create or adapt to new methods of energy?
sorry to the OP this has nothing to do with what you were talkin' about, i just felt a need to give my 2 cents.
oh yeah... where i live (hawaii) is about as far from E85 as one can get, so i don't really have anything to worry about, since there is none sold here
03-24-2008, 10:11 PM
#56
Originally Posted by phunk
Since I am preparing to get my Z out of storage and immediately install the twin pumps and run E85, I have been doing some research.
Aluminum, such as in our CJM fuel systems (the rails, S2 output fitting, return correction fitting, and entire twin pump assembly), is not supposed to be used at all with E85.
Some say that the anodizing protects them, and I believe that may be the case since I have seen anodized aluminum hold up.
Those of you with a CJM system, you will need to verify what parts of your system are or are not anodized. All of the parts I have mentioned, except for the twin pumps, do not come standard as anodized and may or may not be in your system.
Due to the extra corrosion expected with the E85, I will be installed an alcohol compatable filter. I am hoping to find one that goes down to 10 microns. The corrosion from the E85 can cause you a lot of debris in your fuel system, especially the first few tanks. They say to clean/replace your fuel filter every 50 miles for a few times after the conversion.
That is not possible with a stock fuel pump assembly as the filter is non-replaceable. Keep that in mind everyone. I am reading reports of very contaminated filters when the conversion is first made.
Right now I am concerned with the fuel tank itself. I am reading that a bare unplated steel tank should be fine, but a tank that is Terne (lead-tin-alloy) plated steel is not fine, I assume the plating will flake off and contaminate the fuel system. Does anyone here know how to confirm one way or the other. The inside of our tank APPEARS unplated, but I dont know what color/tint that common plating would have. However, I would assume that we do not have this plating on the tank since its a modern vehicle and its expected to be used with oxygenated gasolines... should be ok, but it would be nice to get a two thumbs up from whoever designed that gas tank!
The more I think about it, the less I worry. I just worry a little about the fittings in the fuel system too. While earlier fuel systems of ours used nearly all anodized aluminum fittings, they are all steel fittings now with some type of coating making them either silver or yellowish. I need to contact the manufacturer and find out if these coatings are safe for the alcohol.
I read this entire article, I recommend it. Its decently long but its really good information.
http://www.e85fuel.com/pdf/e85_technical_booklet.pdf
I also found this article reassuring (geared more towards retuning performance gasoline engines with E85):
http://www.e85mustangs.com/tuning.html
And here is a good article from some buddies at AMS:
http://www.fuelsrc.com/index.php/200...h-and-testing/
Just for fun, here is a website that shows a conversion table for lambda to A/F. It doesnt include E85, but it does have methonal (still not quite close)... but interesting either way:
http://www.ontronic.com/lambda_meters.php
Between reading all those, and having significant hands on exposure to E85 conversions in twin turbo vipers, I feel pretty comfortable taking on this job... its not that its hard anyway, its just that you want to have the information before you do it. I will be sad if I drop my twin pump assembly into the E85 and it melts away like its in acid (not going to happen haha).
I want to measure and find the absolute highest blend of ethanol E85 before tuning... since the winterized blend will run it richer. I would rather start with the higher ethanol content so that I dont have to risk running lean if I fill up at a pump running a blend with more ethanol.
Aluminum, such as in our CJM fuel systems (the rails, S2 output fitting, return correction fitting, and entire twin pump assembly), is not supposed to be used at all with E85.
Some say that the anodizing protects them, and I believe that may be the case since I have seen anodized aluminum hold up.
Those of you with a CJM system, you will need to verify what parts of your system are or are not anodized. All of the parts I have mentioned, except for the twin pumps, do not come standard as anodized and may or may not be in your system.
Due to the extra corrosion expected with the E85, I will be installed an alcohol compatable filter. I am hoping to find one that goes down to 10 microns. The corrosion from the E85 can cause you a lot of debris in your fuel system, especially the first few tanks. They say to clean/replace your fuel filter every 50 miles for a few times after the conversion.
That is not possible with a stock fuel pump assembly as the filter is non-replaceable. Keep that in mind everyone. I am reading reports of very contaminated filters when the conversion is first made.
Right now I am concerned with the fuel tank itself. I am reading that a bare unplated steel tank should be fine, but a tank that is Terne (lead-tin-alloy) plated steel is not fine, I assume the plating will flake off and contaminate the fuel system. Does anyone here know how to confirm one way or the other. The inside of our tank APPEARS unplated, but I dont know what color/tint that common plating would have. However, I would assume that we do not have this plating on the tank since its a modern vehicle and its expected to be used with oxygenated gasolines... should be ok, but it would be nice to get a two thumbs up from whoever designed that gas tank!
The more I think about it, the less I worry. I just worry a little about the fittings in the fuel system too. While earlier fuel systems of ours used nearly all anodized aluminum fittings, they are all steel fittings now with some type of coating making them either silver or yellowish. I need to contact the manufacturer and find out if these coatings are safe for the alcohol.
I read this entire article, I recommend it. Its decently long but its really good information.
http://www.e85fuel.com/pdf/e85_technical_booklet.pdf
I also found this article reassuring (geared more towards retuning performance gasoline engines with E85):
http://www.e85mustangs.com/tuning.html
And here is a good article from some buddies at AMS:
http://www.fuelsrc.com/index.php/200...h-and-testing/
Just for fun, here is a website that shows a conversion table for lambda to A/F. It doesnt include E85, but it does have methonal (still not quite close)... but interesting either way:
http://www.ontronic.com/lambda_meters.php
Between reading all those, and having significant hands on exposure to E85 conversions in twin turbo vipers, I feel pretty comfortable taking on this job... its not that its hard anyway, its just that you want to have the information before you do it. I will be sad if I drop my twin pump assembly into the E85 and it melts away like its in acid (not going to happen haha).
I want to measure and find the absolute highest blend of ethanol E85 before tuning... since the winterized blend will run it richer. I would rather start with the higher ethanol content so that I dont have to risk running lean if I fill up at a pump running a blend with more ethanol.
After I did a lot more reading a few months ago, I pretty much decided it's too risky to just throw E85 in the car, retune, and hope for the best. I was thinking I'd give it a shot with my stock block since I'd hate to risk corroding a perfectly good and expensive built engine.
Despite some people saying it's not all that corrosive, I've read a lot that it still can eat away and corrode soft metals. At this point I'll just wait for someone else to try it and work it all out
On another note though, I am really interested in using E85 instead of meth for water/meth injection. I've seen first hand water/meth eat away at my brass nozzle for my water injection kit. I've since turned it down some and do a 60/40 water/meth mix instead of 50/50
Originally Posted by WangZ808
we (the world) will not run out of oil... supply and demand will take care of that long before it ever happens. oil will become so expensive: 1. less oil will be used. 2. the the market will adjust and new alternatives will pop up. the world is not going to end in 10 years. society will be safe. the sky is not falling.
when i was young there was no internet no cell phones. when my parents were young there was no t.v.. when my parents parents were young there were no airplanes, cars, etc... get the picture
why should we all live in fear of something that will never happen. are we (humans) so dumb that we can't create or adapt to new methods of energy?
sorry to the OP this has nothing to do with what you were talkin' about, i just felt a need to give my 2 cents.
oh yeah... where i live (hawaii) is about as far from E85 as one can get, so i don't really have anything to worry about, since there is none sold here
when i was young there was no internet no cell phones. when my parents were young there was no t.v.. when my parents parents were young there were no airplanes, cars, etc... get the picture
why should we all live in fear of something that will never happen. are we (humans) so dumb that we can't create or adapt to new methods of energy?
sorry to the OP this has nothing to do with what you were talkin' about, i just felt a need to give my 2 cents.
oh yeah... where i live (hawaii) is about as far from E85 as one can get, so i don't really have anything to worry about, since there is none sold here
As much as I'd like to use E85 to get away from using foreign oil, I was just interested in it for performance and cost (vs race gas) reasons.
whether we run out of oil or if 1 gallon of gas costs $200, it pretty much means the same thing - I won't be driving my car much with oil derived gas
Last edited by sentry65; 03-24-2008 at 10:17 PM.
03-25-2008, 05:21 AM
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Originally Posted by orbital24
we cant even feed everyone on this planet and yet now we're going to somehow produce fuel to power our cars as well via agriculture?
I agree that the world won't run out of oil, but production and refinement will be dropped to such a low level that it will no longer be economically feasible to run on it. Hopefully by that time they will have a readily made fuel alternative for those who still enjoy driving their antique gasoline powered vehicles.
05-11-2009, 01:05 PM
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So...
Has anyone actually done this yet? I will be doing this in the next 10 days and just wondering if I should be looking for anything that may surprise me.
Has anyone actually done this yet? I will be doing this in the next 10 days and just wondering if I should be looking for anything that may surprise me.