It's done! ~~MoTeC M800~~ running on my car *pics*videos*
11-16-2007, 04:30 PM
#61
Indeed, there are lots of updates.... I've just been too busy to post anything, as a proper writeup will take a little while. We (THX723) have been busy with the MoTeC over the last few weeks, but it's been a bit slow due to my other commitments, etc.
Look for a "Part II" writeup very soon, hopefully this weekend, or in the coming week. It's truly trick stuff.
Look for a "Part II" writeup very soon, hopefully this weekend, or in the coming week. It's truly trick stuff.
11-25-2007, 06:29 PM
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Originally Posted by MR RIZK
What controls the DBW? Last Z with a Motec I have seen got the DBW to work but was not great and had to go back to oem to control the DBW
11-27-2007, 08:14 AM
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Originally Posted by GurgenPB
Indeed, there are lots of updates.... I've just been too busy to post anything, as a proper writeup will take a little while. We (THX723) have been busy with the MoTeC over the last few weeks, but it's been a bit slow due to my other commitments, etc.
Look for a "Part II" writeup very soon, hopefully this weekend, or in the coming week. It's truly trick stuff.
Look for a "Part II" writeup very soon, hopefully this weekend, or in the coming week. It's truly trick stuff.
11-27-2007, 01:50 PM
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Originally Posted by rb26ina240
you would have to send your throttle body, and pedal assembly to motec for them to calibrate it.
Any EMS that has provision for direct DBW contorl would at the minimum have on-board TB and TP calibration. MoTeC is no different, as is the case for oem ECUs. You simply cannot reliably and safely control DBW w.o. havnig first established the calibration points.
Boy that Gurgen sure is taking a long time with his write up. ... something about having little time due to a new job.
Welcome to the working class buddy!
Last edited by THX723; 11-27-2007 at 01:52 PM.
11-27-2007, 02:12 PM
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Originally Posted by THX723
False statement.
Any EMS that has provision for direct DBW contorl would at the minimum have on-board TB and TP calibration. MoTeC is no different, as is the case for oem ECUs. You simply cannot reliably and safely control DBW w.o. havnig first established the calibration points.
Boy that Gurgen sure is taking a long time with his write up. ... something about having little time due to a new job.
Welcome to the working class buddy!
Any EMS that has provision for direct DBW contorl would at the minimum have on-board TB and TP calibration. MoTeC is no different, as is the case for oem ECUs. You simply cannot reliably and safely control DBW w.o. havnig first established the calibration points.
Boy that Gurgen sure is taking a long time with his write up. ... something about having little time due to a new job.
Welcome to the working class buddy!
Last edited by rb26ina240; 11-27-2007 at 02:33 PM.
11-27-2007, 02:36 PM
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Originally Posted by rb26ina240
Motec will not release a DBW code unless they have tested that particular setup thoroughly. im sure they have done it for the 350z.
I assume you mean "DBW map", when you said "code". There is no DBW MAP to release and never will be from MoTeC. Not to the general public at the very least. MoTeC isn't in the business to perform calibration works, or to provide the so called "starter maps". This also applies to the rest of the engine calibration maps. It is entirely up to the end-users, or the resellers (if they so choose), to do all the calibration R&D. They may in turn freely share the data to their content, but know that these data are often highly guarded intellectual properties.
FYI MoTeC has been directly driving the VQ35 DBW for many years now.
Last edited by THX723; 11-27-2007 at 03:55 PM.
11-27-2007, 02:44 PM
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Originally Posted by MR RIZK
What controls the DBW? Last Z with a Motec I have seen got the DBW to work but was not great and had to go back to oem to control the DBW
With direct DBW comes a whole slew of enhanced features (better idle control, better traction control, etc.) one can't otherwise fully utilize of the MoTeC.
I fairly certain that person had no problem interfacing to the DBW, but was caught out by not having developed a decent enough 3D map for driveability.
Last edited by THX723; 11-27-2007 at 03:53 PM.
11-27-2007, 02:47 PM
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Originally Posted by THX723
Forgive me if I'm still misunderstanding your statements.
I assume you mean "DBW map", when you said "code". There is no DBW code to release and never will be from MoTeC. Not to the general public at the very least. MoTeC isn't in the business to perform calibration works, or to provide the so called "starter maps". This also applies to the rest of the engine calibration maps. It is entirely up to the end-users, or the resellers (if they so choose), to do all the calibration R&D. They may in turn freely share the data to their content, but know that these data are often highly guarded intellectual properties.
FYI MoTeC has been directly driving the VQ35 DBW for many years now.
I assume you mean "DBW map", when you said "code". There is no DBW code to release and never will be from MoTeC. Not to the general public at the very least. MoTeC isn't in the business to perform calibration works, or to provide the so called "starter maps". This also applies to the rest of the engine calibration maps. It is entirely up to the end-users, or the resellers (if they so choose), to do all the calibration R&D. They may in turn freely share the data to their content, but know that these data are often highly guarded intellectual properties.
FYI MoTeC has been directly driving the VQ35 DBW for many years now.
im sure motec has had DBW available for the VQ35 but new calibrations are needed for newer motors.(eg: change in sensors or dual throttle body)
11-27-2007, 03:32 PM
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Originally Posted by rb26ina240
i not sure about motec usa but motec europe will calibrate a specific DBW for a customer.
im sure motec has had DBW available for the VQ35 but new calibrations are needed for newer motors.(eg: change in sensors or dual throttle body)
im sure motec has had DBW available for the VQ35 but new calibrations are needed for newer motors.(eg: change in sensors or dual throttle body)
Current MoTeC DBW upgrade options can already handle up to 4 individual DBWs (good enough for a 4-bank system such as the Veyron). Sensor changes don't justify a need for special calibration more than for the tolerance differences between two otherwise identical DBW/TPS units. Ideally you'd want to recalibrate every time either the DBW, TPS or the EMS is disconnected from a live power source (this includes the factory ECU). Point being it is the least any EMS who claims to support DBW can and should do. It is quite literally a 5-10 second process in the config menu of any EMS I have ever worked with (capture TB/TP position voltages at both open and close then save ... done).
The simple sensor calibration you speak of above is merely the tip of a larger calibration picture I speak of, which includes mapping of the 3D throttle_ opening-to-engine_load fuzzy logic characteristic (i.e. the part that has most people baffled - driveability).
I should also add the only time any additional "DBW code" would be released from MoTeC is if the particular DBW system is digitally interfaced (e.g. CAN based), as oppose to the traditional direct analog interfacing (like the VQs). In such case, MoTeC would update their firmware so the EMS can "talk" to the DBW system digitally, but that's it. It is still up to the end-user to come up w. ALL the calibration data.
Last edited by THX723; 11-27-2007 at 03:59 PM.
11-27-2007, 04:17 PM
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Originally Posted by THX723
MoTec will certainly indulge in the R&D necessary for any calibration one could conjure up in exchange for a lump sum; read as NOT FREE.
Current MoTeC DBW upgrade options can already handle up to 4 individual DBWs (good enough for a 4-bank system such as the Veyron). Sensor changes don't justify a need for special calibration more than for the tolerance differences between two otherwise identical DBW/TPS units. Ideally you'd want to recalibrate every time either the DBW, TPS or the EMS is disconnected from a live power source (this includes the factory ECU). Point being it is the least any EMS who claims to support DBW can and should do. It is quite literally a 5-10 second process in the config menu of any EMS I have ever worked with (capture TB/TP position voltages at both open and close then save ... done).
The simple sensor calibration you speak of above is merely the tip of a larger calibration picture I speak of, which includes mapping of the 3D throttle_ opening-to-engine_load fuzzy logic characteristic (i.e. the part that has most people baffled - driveability).
I should also add the only time any additional "DBW code" would be released from MoTeC is if the particular DBW system is digitally interfaced (e.g. CAN based), as oppose to the traditional direct analog interfacing (like the VQs). In such case, MoTeC would update their firmware so the EMS can "talk" to the DBW system digitally, but that's it. It is still up to the end-user to come up w. ALL the calibration data.
Current MoTeC DBW upgrade options can already handle up to 4 individual DBWs (good enough for a 4-bank system such as the Veyron). Sensor changes don't justify a need for special calibration more than for the tolerance differences between two otherwise identical DBW/TPS units. Ideally you'd want to recalibrate every time either the DBW, TPS or the EMS is disconnected from a live power source (this includes the factory ECU). Point being it is the least any EMS who claims to support DBW can and should do. It is quite literally a 5-10 second process in the config menu of any EMS I have ever worked with (capture TB/TP position voltages at both open and close then save ... done).
The simple sensor calibration you speak of above is merely the tip of a larger calibration picture I speak of, which includes mapping of the 3D throttle_ opening-to-engine_load fuzzy logic characteristic (i.e. the part that has most people baffled - driveability).
I should also add the only time any additional "DBW code" would be released from MoTeC is if the particular DBW system is digitally interfaced (e.g. CAN based), as oppose to the traditional direct analog interfacing (like the VQs). In such case, MoTeC would update their firmware so the EMS can "talk" to the DBW system digitally, but that's it. It is still up to the end-user to come up w. ALL the calibration data.
11-27-2007, 05:33 PM
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Originally Posted by rb26ina240
i talking about motecs end of the calibration. their process takes 2 days(according to motec).
Last edited by THX723; 11-27-2007 at 05:43 PM.
11-28-2007, 05:00 PM
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Originally Posted by THX723
Anyone can perform the simple open/close calibration by themself from the setup menu.
11-28-2007, 05:26 PM
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Originally Posted by rb26ina240
yes, but what about the failsafes in case of loss of power ect. it is my understanding thats on motec's end.
All DBW mechanisms are designed to be "fail closed". There's an internal preload spring that insures the butterfly slams shut whenever its power source is lost or otherwise off.
It isn't MoTeC's (or any EMS) responsibility to save DBW system from power failures. It is however the EMS' responsibility to determine if the DBW unit is working reliably. For that reason, all DBW systems have a pair of dual redundant position sensors, to which the EMS reads continuously and makes comparisons. In an event the two inputs deviate from each other over a set threshold, the EMS deems the device unreliable and typically goes into a "limp mode" and/or activates CEL.
MoTeC is actually capable of running using only 1 input, but using both inputs is highly recommended for safety reasons.
Hope that clears it up.
Last edited by THX723; 11-28-2007 at 05:30 PM.
11-29-2007, 06:11 AM
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Originally Posted by THX723
Now we're dealing with something else other than the need for "special" calibration.
All DBW mechanisms are designed to be "fail closed". There's an internal preload spring that insures the butterfly slams shut whenever its power source is lost or otherwise off.
It isn't MoTeC's (or any EMS) responsibility to save DBW system from power failures. It is however the EMS' responsibility to determine if the DBW unit is working reliably. For that reason, all DBW systems have a pair of dual redundant position sensors, to which the EMS reads continuously and makes comparisons. In an event the two inputs deviate from each other over a set threshold, the EMS deems the device unreliable and typically goes into a "limp mode" and/or activates CEL.
MoTeC is actually capable of running using only 1 input, but using both inputs is highly recommended for safety reasons.
Hope that clears it up.
All DBW mechanisms are designed to be "fail closed". There's an internal preload spring that insures the butterfly slams shut whenever its power source is lost or otherwise off.
It isn't MoTeC's (or any EMS) responsibility to save DBW system from power failures. It is however the EMS' responsibility to determine if the DBW unit is working reliably. For that reason, all DBW systems have a pair of dual redundant position sensors, to which the EMS reads continuously and makes comparisons. In an event the two inputs deviate from each other over a set threshold, the EMS deems the device unreliable and typically goes into a "limp mode" and/or activates CEL.
MoTeC is actually capable of running using only 1 input, but using both inputs is highly recommended for safety reasons.
Hope that clears it up.
Last edited by rb26ina240; 11-29-2007 at 06:13 AM.
12-02-2007, 07:17 PM
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Originally Posted by GurgenPB
Fast and the Furious FTW?!
Thanks bro... it should be interesting, and educational. We'll see if my hours of preparation and study helps... nothign like breaking your cherry on tuning a real EMS. We'll see.
Well, it was about 13-14 hours to make the harness and wire the car up in the way that I did. It would have been quite a bit less (say 3-4 hours) if I didn't elect to do the connectors, but it will afford ease of use in the future, so that time is well-invested IMHO. Two (2) hours to start the car
However, I spent countless hours (labor of love though
) learnign the system, as I said. Probably good 40-50 hours spread over a couple of months. Now I feel comfortable with it, and it's getting more so by the hour.
On cost... it's not unheard of to spend $10K on MoTeC, but that as you can see from above is not the case here. If you take advantage of every option in the MoTeC then you really do havea race car, in whcih case an experienced dealer/tuner that knows the system inside out will charge you that amount and you will pay it. That was not acceptable to me of course ($10K that is), and i decided to invest the time to learn to system to the highest extent possible, and go little by little and get to that level of tune, while getting an education in the matter....that was the deal for me. This is definitely not for everyone though, as you know, as most people just want to get the car. In fact unless you really study the system, you can't really appreciate the "work of art" that it is.
So for me, it was about $5000 for the M800 with the Active Cam control (advanced functions included in the US M800 i.e. M820), ~$100 for the terminal kit, ~$100 miscellaneous wiring/supplies, $260 AutoSport wiring harness, $80 GM 3-bar MAP sensor with terminal kit. Plus of course my time (14 hours actual wiring time), plus the time to learn the software. I alread had the dual widebands, EGT (using the Innovate AuxBox as thermocouple amplifier and barometric pressure sensor).
Not counting the latter, and the time, my grand total is $5540. I will be doing the tuning myself, so not counting that either.
More on that later, surely....
Thanks bro... it should be interesting, and educational. We'll see if my hours of preparation and study helps... nothign like breaking your cherry on tuning a real EMS. We'll see.
Well, it was about 13-14 hours to make the harness and wire the car up in the way that I did. It would have been quite a bit less (say 3-4 hours) if I didn't elect to do the connectors, but it will afford ease of use in the future, so that time is well-invested IMHO. Two (2) hours to start the car
However, I spent countless hours (labor of love though
) learnign the system, as I said. Probably good 40-50 hours spread over a couple of months. Now I feel comfortable with it, and it's getting more so by the hour.On cost... it's not unheard of to spend $10K on MoTeC, but that as you can see from above is not the case here. If you take advantage of every option in the MoTeC then you really do havea race car, in whcih case an experienced dealer/tuner that knows the system inside out will charge you that amount and you will pay it. That was not acceptable to me of course ($10K that is), and i decided to invest the time to learn to system to the highest extent possible, and go little by little and get to that level of tune, while getting an education in the matter....that was the deal for me. This is definitely not for everyone though, as you know, as most people just want to get the car. In fact unless you really study the system, you can't really appreciate the "work of art" that it is.
So for me, it was about $5000 for the M800 with the Active Cam control (advanced functions included in the US M800 i.e. M820), ~$100 for the terminal kit, ~$100 miscellaneous wiring/supplies, $260 AutoSport wiring harness, $80 GM 3-bar MAP sensor with terminal kit. Plus of course my time (14 hours actual wiring time), plus the time to learn the software. I alread had the dual widebands, EGT (using the Innovate AuxBox as thermocouple amplifier and barometric pressure sensor).
Not counting the latter, and the time, my grand total is $5540. I will be doing the tuning myself, so not counting that either.
More on that later, surely....
Motec - M800 ECU M 820
Motec - Advanced Functions(Standard on M800) M 880 ADV
Motec - Overrun Boost Enhancement(anti lag) M880 ORB
Motec - Traction Control
Motec - Gear Change ignition Cut
Motec - Hi-Lo Injection
Motec - Enable 1 Megabyte Int Logging M 880 IMLOG
Motec - Enable Dual Wide Lambda M 880 2LA
Motec - M800 Harness M 820 H
Motec - M800 Termination Kit M 820 TERM
Motec - CID-8 Ignition M CDI-8
Motec - CID-8 Harness M CDI-8 H
Motec - USB to CAN Adapter M UTC
Motec - Minni Dash Display M MDD-1
Bosch - TPS M 0280 001
Bosch - LSU-4 5 Wire Wide Band Lambda Sensor (1) M 0258 06 066
Bosch - LSU-4 5 Wire Wide Band Lambda Sensor (2) M 0258 06 066
Bosch - Air Temperature Sensor 12mm M 0280 060
Bosch - Coolant Temperature Sensor M12 x 1.5 M 0280 023
Motec - Pressure Transducer 100psi(MAP) M P155-100A
Motec - Pressure Transducer 150psi(oil) M P155-150A
Motec - Pressure Transducer 150psi(fuel) M P155-150A
Motec - Pressure Transducer 2000psi(Brake) M P195-2000A
Motec - Exaust Gas Temperature K-Type Thermocouple Amp M TCA
Motec - Exaust Gas Temperature K-Type Thermocouple Amp M TCA
Motec - Exaust Gas Temperature K-Type Thermocouple Amp M TCA
Motec - Exaust Gas Temperature K-Type Thermocouple Amp M TCA
Motec - Exaust Gas Temperature K-Type Thermocouple Amp M TCA
Motec - Exaust Gas Temperature K-Type Thermocouple Amp M TCA
Motec - Exaust Gas Temperature K-Type Thermocouple M TC4C
Motec - Exaust Gas Temperature K-Type Thermocouple M TC4C
Motec - Exaust Gas Temperature K-Type Thermocouple M TC4C
Motec - Exaust Gas Temperature K-Type Thermocouple M TC4C
Motec - Exaust Gas Temperature K-Type Thermocouple M TC4C
Motec - Exaust Gas Temperature K-Type Thermocouple M TC4C
12-03-2007, 11:20 AM
#79
Wow.... I have really been away from the boards for a long while....
Ok, some updates. Clint (THX723) is absolutely correct. The onyl thing you have to get tfrom MoTeC, which is something you can definitely find for yourself spending some quality time with a scope, are the actual frequencies for the stepper motor drive, that'a all. The rest IS all user calibration, i.e. the TPd to TP translational maps, compensations, etc. This, as always has been Stage 2 for me. For now, stage 1.5 has been 99% completed. We just got back from the track (CalSpeedway), and I gotta say, I have a whole newly-found trust in the car. It performed INCREDIBLY well, as far as the EMS is concerned.
I will be writing a new thread later on today.
Ok, some updates. Clint (THX723) is absolutely correct. The onyl thing you have to get tfrom MoTeC, which is something you can definitely find for yourself spending some quality time with a scope, are the actual frequencies for the stepper motor drive, that'a all. The rest IS all user calibration, i.e. the TPd to TP translational maps, compensations, etc. This, as always has been Stage 2 for me. For now, stage 1.5 has been 99% completed. We just got back from the track (CalSpeedway), and I gotta say, I have a whole newly-found trust in the car. It performed INCREDIBLY well, as far as the EMS is concerned.
I will be writing a new thread later on today.
12-03-2007, 12:11 PM
#80
A quick screen cap that illustrates how well MoTeC Clsoed Loop Lambda control really works with minimal tweaking.
This is a screen can from Session 4 of California Speedway from the MoTeC i2 Datalogging Analysis Tool. The Fuel table is not quite tuned yet, and was set to be overly rich in the low 10's and actually nines (which is what it will do if Lambda control is turned off). With lambda control tuend on, and some of the settings tweaked (yet by no mean optimized), here is how the MoTeC controlled fueling, which in my opinion is superb. For track, the AFR targeting was set between 11 and 10.5 depending on load and RPM, and it was truly HELD there! Excellent!
This is a screen can from Session 4 of California Speedway from the MoTeC i2 Datalogging Analysis Tool. The Fuel table is not quite tuned yet, and was set to be overly rich in the low 10's and actually nines (which is what it will do if Lambda control is turned off). With lambda control tuend on, and some of the settings tweaked (yet by no mean optimized), here is how the MoTeC controlled fueling, which in my opinion is superb. For track, the AFR targeting was set between 11 and 10.5 depending on load and RPM, and it was truly HELD there! Excellent!
Last edited by GurgenPB; 12-03-2007 at 12:19 PM.