Limits of the JWT clutch and flywheel
10-23-2007, 12:30 PM
#61
Originally Posted by Nforce1
If I read right before, I think he even said he would pay for part of it.
Originally Posted by Philthy
....My offer to pay for your runs at GTM still stands... I'll even pay GTM to pull your valve cover and examine the studs.....
10-23-2007, 12:31 PM
#62
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Originally Posted by Philthy
OK, we're all ignorant haters for asking questions and wanting some back up proof or at least an explanation beside, 'voodoo engine building techniques' or 'the way we tune'... ?
If you get two stock cars built one right after another right off the assembly line and have them both dyno'd ...one makes more power than the other... Why?? How can this be?! .... It just does!
10-23-2007, 12:34 PM
#64
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Originally Posted by WA2GOOD
I tell you, it has alot to do with the tune. We have a nitch and it works, lets leave it at that. The combination of Mark B's building specs, torque settings, etc., and the way we tune the cars with JWT's Clark and Jim is obviously a combination that works.
Please everybody, lets not hate on things that you can not understand yourself. That is the true meaning of ignorance. (not calling anyone that)
As much as you all get baffled because you can not figure out to make the motors last at the power levels we are at with the parts we use, I am equally baffled how people wil continue to pay for overbuilt things that they do not need. Maybe it makes them feel better
Please everybody, lets not hate on things that you can not understand yourself. That is the true meaning of ignorance. (not calling anyone that)
As much as you all get baffled because you can not figure out to make the motors last at the power levels we are at with the parts we use, I am equally baffled how people wil continue to pay for overbuilt things that they do not need. Maybe it makes them feel better
Thanks for the clarification.
10-23-2007, 12:35 PM
#65
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Originally Posted by SinCity350Z
I just want to let you know that Scott really doesn't think that its magic voodoo that holds these motors together. He is aware that that is impossible.
But seriously now. It gets a little old that I can not even put up a thread about being shocked about the longevity of a clutch and all hell breaks loose. I am just going to have to consentrate on hopeing that the shop and the cars are still there when all the fire stuff calms down. Got alot on my mind with SEMA, Upcomming Time Attack Finals, and more importantly helping out friends that are loosing their houses in the fires. Hope we have a shop to go back to.
10-23-2007, 12:37 PM
#66
Originally Posted by Nforce1
I think people are reading too much into it. If it works, then it works... Whats there to explain?? If you dont believe it, then go see it.
10-23-2007, 12:38 PM
#67
When comparing clutches, here are a couple more points to consider:
1) Drag racing, or "slipping" the clutch requires a much stronger clutch, and something more durable than a clutch being is used on a circuit course. Clean, rev-match shifting is not that abusive to a clutch
2) If the operator sets up their dyno with a very brief ramp rate (maybe 2-3 seconds), there will be very little load placed on the engine and drivetrain. So whilst the clutch may hold power on that free spinning dyno, it make not hold power under heavy load, or an aggressive launch. I recall that VRT's dyno videos illustrated this very clearly, with their seemingly free spinning ramp rates. The speed traveled from 70mph to 150mph in a couple of seconds.
1) Drag racing, or "slipping" the clutch requires a much stronger clutch, and something more durable than a clutch being is used on a circuit course. Clean, rev-match shifting is not that abusive to a clutch
2) If the operator sets up their dyno with a very brief ramp rate (maybe 2-3 seconds), there will be very little load placed on the engine and drivetrain. So whilst the clutch may hold power on that free spinning dyno, it make not hold power under heavy load, or an aggressive launch. I recall that VRT's dyno videos illustrated this very clearly, with their seemingly free spinning ramp rates. The speed traveled from 70mph to 150mph in a couple of seconds.
10-23-2007, 12:40 PM
#69
Originally Posted by WA2GOOD
and more importantly helping out friends that are loosing their houses in the fires. Hope we have a shop to go back to.
Most industrial/commercial areas tend to be in regions where fire can't get to them. Seems like most of the fires are in the residential hillside areas. So hopefully your shop will be spared.
I lived in Socal for 10 years, so I know the area pretty well.
10-23-2007, 12:40 PM
#70
Originally Posted by Sharif@Forged
When comparing clutches, here are a couple more points to consider:
1) Drag racing, or "slipping" the clutch requires a much stronger clutch, and something more durable than a clutch being is used on a circuit course. Clean, rev-match shifting is not that abusive to a clutch
2) If the operator sets up their dyno with a very brief ramp rate (maybe 2-3 seconds), there will be very little load placed on the engine and drivetrain. So whilst the clutch may hold power on that free spinning dyno, it make not hold power under heavy load, or an aggressive launch. I recall that VRT's dyno videos illustrated this very clearly, with their seemingly free spinning ramp rates. The speed traveled from 70mph to 150mph in a couple of seconds.
1) Drag racing, or "slipping" the clutch requires a much stronger clutch, and something more durable than a clutch being is used on a circuit course. Clean, rev-match shifting is not that abusive to a clutch
2) If the operator sets up their dyno with a very brief ramp rate (maybe 2-3 seconds), there will be very little load placed on the engine and drivetrain. So whilst the clutch may hold power on that free spinning dyno, it make not hold power under heavy load, or an aggressive launch. I recall that VRT's dyno videos illustrated this very clearly, with their seemingly free spinning ramp rates. The speed traveled from 70mph to 150mph in a couple of seconds.
10-23-2007, 12:47 PM
#72
Originally Posted by SinCity350Z
My point is, we haven't seen any reason to re-invent the wheel on that yet and my car, as well as others, are proof that the OEM head studs and gaskets can be perfectly ok to use in high horsepower FI motors. You can choose to install the aftermarket stuff if you want, but we haven't found a need to yet.
I'll use bigbri as an example - he is very similar to this one. He had a crackhead Dastek 700whp plot-much like the one in this thread nobody believed it. BUT!!! --->he backed it with a 134mph trap SPINNING (over -3 rear camber IIRC), now that car had more in it, BUT it made sense.
Scott doesnt drag race and the only other car to run down the 1/4 that has been on that dyno is you, IIRC it was LONG ago you ran mid 13's @ 111mph with 540+whp....maybe the proof is in the pudding?
How hard is it to get a car to a Dynojet, change the correction to SAE or STD and post it? It will end all doubt....if you havent found a need to upgrade you arent running the power levels claimed at the track its very simple.
10-23-2007, 12:51 PM
#73
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Originally Posted by Alberto
How hard is it to get a car to a Dynojet, change the correction to SAE or STD and post it? It will end all doubt....if you havent found a need to upgrade you arent running the power levels claimed at the track its very simple.
Originally Posted by WA2GOOD
No, but that is a good idea. If we did just that..... in a week or so, would that shut you up and be the end of all this ???
10-23-2007, 12:54 PM
#74
I saw that I have read "DJ in a week or so" for over a year now, I along with many others arent holding our breath....
I am equally baffled how you trapped 111mph running 12psi of boost and the claimed power levels. AND thats taking your altitude into account. Nothing adds up with this whole situation. Sounds to me like you have been brain washed into accepting cutting corners is "ok", but hey if your happy with it more power to you...
Originally Posted by SinCity350Z
As much as you all get baffled because you can not figure out to make the motors last at the power levels we are at with the parts we use, I am equally baffled how people wil continue to pay for overbuilt things that they do not need. Maybe it makes them feel better
10-23-2007, 12:55 PM
#75
Originally Posted by Alberto
I simply dont trust those dyno numbers/curves given the psi. Too bad the only high hp car from Cali that have been run at the track (1/4 to verify power) off the top of my head are mrtomcat and bigbri's old set-up.
I'll use bigbri as an example - he is very similar to this one. He had a crackhead Dastek 700whp plot-much like the one in this thread nobody believed it. BUT!!! --->he backed it with a 134mph trap SPINNING (over -3 rear camber IIRC), now that car had more in it, BUT it made sense.
Scott doesnt drag race and the only other car to run down the 1/4 that has been on that dyno is you, IIRC it was LONG ago you ran mid 13's @ 111mph with 540+whp....maybe the proof is in the pudding?
How hard is it to get a car to a Dynojet, change the correction to SAE or STD and post it? It will end all doubt....if you havent found a need to upgrade you arent running the power levels claimed at the track its very simple.
I'll use bigbri as an example - he is very similar to this one. He had a crackhead Dastek 700whp plot-much like the one in this thread nobody believed it. BUT!!! --->he backed it with a 134mph trap SPINNING (over -3 rear camber IIRC), now that car had more in it, BUT it made sense.
Scott doesnt drag race and the only other car to run down the 1/4 that has been on that dyno is you, IIRC it was LONG ago you ran mid 13's @ 111mph with 540+whp....maybe the proof is in the pudding?
How hard is it to get a car to a Dynojet, change the correction to SAE or STD and post it? It will end all doubt....if you havent found a need to upgrade you arent running the power levels claimed at the track its very simple.
10-23-2007, 01:01 PM
#77
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Originally Posted by SinCity350Z
LOL, you can't be serious. Even more un-reliable than dynos is 1/4 mile times. Now you are throwing in elevation, track conditions, tire choice, suspension setup, DRIVER ERROR, and so much more.
when is the next event Mike?
Originally Posted by Nforce1
...This site should really set up a chat room! lol
abnd as i think synth suggested an OT-Fi subforum lol
sorry XKR
i didn't post to instigate you i was just pointing that besides the OP Jeremy has gotten a lot of power from the clutch and that on the same dyno you tuned the rps hold ed for 550whp....
i didn't think that was instigating...but i guess i should have elaborated more
Last edited by IIQuickSilverII; 10-23-2007 at 01:06 PM.
10-23-2007, 01:04 PM
#78
I am dead serious, 1/4 times dont lie, they tell a drivers skill/traction-not the subject here, TRAP SPEEDS NEVER LIE, they indicate power given the weight. IMO there has been no "proof" of the claims, you came no where close to trapping what a car of your power should trap, it doesnt matter if it was your first time or billionth. Ive been seeing claims of XXX hp XXX tq for a long time. Myself along with many other members and even shops have asked for unbiased Dyno's (DJ's) with no success. Some of the hp/tq combinations that have been posted on that particular dyno especially given the boost levels makes it very suspect-with insane power levels NO OTHER SHOP has com eclose to, crazy TQ numbers at low rpm's and silly power peaks! That is all I have to say, this isnt a personal attack I have nothing against you/Relentless/Scott Im just sick of claims being made "stock studs and hg hold XXX whp, JWT clutch holds XXX whp" when we dont trust those numbers, its not a hard concept to grasp, yet everytime from the woodworks come the nuthuggers(not calling any names getting personal!)-obviously biased cuz they had their mods done by a shop/person in question telling us all how things "really are"
Last edited by Alberto; 10-23-2007 at 01:09 PM.
10-23-2007, 01:05 PM
#79
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Originally Posted by SinCity350Z
LOL, you can't be serious. Even more un-reliable than dynos is 1/4 mile times. Now you are throwing in elevation, track conditions, tire choice, suspension setup, DRIVER ERROR, and so much more.
We have talked about this over and over, but for me, I could care less what I make on the dyno, I always put what the dyno read to the test at the track. IMO my car runs what the dyno reads.
The drag strip does not lie!!