500 HP Vortech
01-25-2008, 02:25 PM
#21
What does a throttlebody have to do with parasitic loss ? Nothing at all ! The parasitic loss is the power it takes to turn the blower , AC , power steering , and Alt.
I said the throttlebody was a air flow restriction
DSport isnt the only artical Ive read that states fuel supply for a SC [ any SC ] should be 20 to 25% higher due to the loss .
If you need to be right on every subject we talk about and split hairs 20 times to get to where you are right...fine ! Get the last post in...Im done !
I said the throttlebody was a air flow restriction
DSport isnt the only artical Ive read that states fuel supply for a SC [ any SC ] should be 20 to 25% higher due to the loss .
If you need to be right on every subject we talk about and split hairs 20 times to get to where you are right...fine ! Get the last post in...Im done !
Last edited by booger; 01-25-2008 at 02:29 PM.
01-25-2008, 02:39 PM
#22
Originally Posted by str8dum1
like you guys have mentioned, 500rwhp will be attainable by some soon enough. But realistically for the money, why would you bother, besides to say you could?
For the money to get there, you might as well get a turbo kit. Both kits would need a built motor for any shred of reliablity. Jumping to a T-trim or maybe some sort of modd'ed E trim would easily surpass the price of a greddy kits, which are producing high 500 numbers on built motors.
For the money to get there, you might as well get a turbo kit. Both kits would need a built motor for any shred of reliablity. Jumping to a T-trim or maybe some sort of modd'ed E trim would easily surpass the price of a greddy kits, which are producing high 500 numbers on built motors.
IMO the T-trim is obsolete now with the Si-trim being out. It might flow slightly more, but IMO it's just not worth the expense over the much cheaper Si-trim especially when the Si-trim is more efficient anyway.
but yeah, the vortech really needs every bit of help it can get to a lot of power out of it. Turbos can just throw more psi at the engine, but you'll eventually end up with a compromised tq curve. It'll be like a mountain peak in the midrange, but the high rpms power starts to die off, or it'll suck at low rpms, then spike up at high rpms. This is why displacement is so nice for keeping the tq curve fairly flat
The vortech is a nice compromise because as you add more power, the entire powerband gains power and doesn't have the low rpms clamped down. The drawback is you can't let the psi number get too high or you'll run into the parasitic loss wall. So after awhile, your only option to buy back some of that parasitic loss is to increase the displacement...which can get expensive, but then again the vortech was cheap to begin with
but comparing prices
vortech tuner kit $4000
install $1500
4.24 stroker short block $9000
= $14,500
vs
TT tuner kit $6000
install $3000
basic short block $4500
=$13,500
these cars would feel completely different
it's all the little things that you gotta add to the vortech to get big power out of it that add up like cams, headers, blower upgrade, CAI, etc etc
Last edited by sentry65; 01-25-2008 at 02:52 PM.
01-25-2008, 02:41 PM
#24
Originally Posted by booger
What does a throttlebody have to do with parasitic loss ? Nothing at all ! The parasitic loss is the power it takes to turn the blower , AC , power steering , and Alt.
I said the throttlebody was a air flow restriction
I said the throttlebody was a air flow restriction
Originally Posted by booger
I believe the bottle neck is the throttlebody to flow enough air
01-25-2008, 08:26 PM
#25
Originally Posted by sentry65
no I didn't know that about the race bearings in that blower
"all" those articles you're referring to are that one article in Dsport where they're likely referring to a classic SC blower like a roots/twin screw, not a turbo compressor driven by a belt like the vortech.
However I do agree SC's obviously suck up more power than turbos
I also agree that high psi can start to get just stupid with a SC. The psi shouldn't be allowed to get too high or you'll run into problems
You're going to run into a wall eventually and obviously sooner than a turbo....given that the turbo isn't small
I'm just not sure I think the throttlebody is contributing a huge amount to a SC's parasitic loss though. Turbo and nitrous setups have that same throttlebody restriction to deal with and they do fine with that same bottleneck. I think the issue is still the SC and engine as far as the majority of the parasitic loss to worry about
IMO upping the displacement and head flow are the best ways to keep the peak psi under control so you don't have as much parasitic loss fighting against your blower.
reving super high I don't think is the answer at all for a SC.
There's more possibility the belts will slip/shred/break/lose teeth.
With this engine and a vortech SC, I think someone would make more power at 6600 rpms at 26 psi than they would at 7500+ rpms with 26 psi because the power drop off at 7500+ rpms starts to get pretty severe (even the HR motors) not to mention the engine temps will rise a lot more at 7500+rpms.
Reving super high with a turbo is a better idea because that extra parasitic loss isn't there and there's no worrying about belt issues
the possible exception is if you add a crapload of timing at 7500+ rpms to attempt to give the stroke more time to ignite and also cam and exhaust the crap out of the engine to the point that it has almost no low end power at all.
That might relieve stress on the blower and belts some, but the car is going to drive almost like a turbo car anyway with how the tq curve will be shaped.
"all" those articles you're referring to are that one article in Dsport where they're likely referring to a classic SC blower like a roots/twin screw, not a turbo compressor driven by a belt like the vortech.
However I do agree SC's obviously suck up more power than turbos
I also agree that high psi can start to get just stupid with a SC. The psi shouldn't be allowed to get too high or you'll run into problems
You're going to run into a wall eventually and obviously sooner than a turbo....given that the turbo isn't small
I'm just not sure I think the throttlebody is contributing a huge amount to a SC's parasitic loss though. Turbo and nitrous setups have that same throttlebody restriction to deal with and they do fine with that same bottleneck. I think the issue is still the SC and engine as far as the majority of the parasitic loss to worry about
IMO upping the displacement and head flow are the best ways to keep the peak psi under control so you don't have as much parasitic loss fighting against your blower.
reving super high I don't think is the answer at all for a SC.
There's more possibility the belts will slip/shred/break/lose teeth.
With this engine and a vortech SC, I think someone would make more power at 6600 rpms at 26 psi than they would at 7500+ rpms with 26 psi because the power drop off at 7500+ rpms starts to get pretty severe (even the HR motors) not to mention the engine temps will rise a lot more at 7500+rpms.
Reving super high with a turbo is a better idea because that extra parasitic loss isn't there and there's no worrying about belt issues
the possible exception is if you add a crapload of timing at 7500+ rpms to attempt to give the stroke more time to ignite and also cam and exhaust the crap out of the engine to the point that it has almost no low end power at all.
That might relieve stress on the blower and belts some, but the car is going to drive almost like a turbo car anyway with how the tq curve will be shaped.
You altered this post 40 minutes after I posted a reply to it . You fixed the statement you made about the throttlebody having an effect on parasitic loss [ we know it doesnt,
Last edited by booger; 01-25-2008 at 08:55 PM.
01-25-2008, 09:10 PM
#26
Originally Posted by sentry65
yeah for the money a twin turbo setup or maybe a large ST like intense's is the better investment down the road to breaking past 500whp.
IMO the T-trim is obsolete now with the Si-trim being out. It might flow slightly more, but IMO it's just not worth the expense over the much cheaper Si-trim especially when the Si-trim is more efficient anyway.
but yeah, the vortech really needs every bit of help it can get to a lot of power out of it. Turbos can just throw more psi at the engine, but you'll eventually end up with a compromised tq curve. It'll be like a mountain peak in the midrange, but the high rpms power starts to die off, or it'll suck at low rpms, then spike up at high rpms. This is why displacement is so nice for keeping the tq curve fairly flat
The vortech is a nice compromise because as you add more power, the entire powerband gains power and doesn't have the low rpms clamped down. The drawback is you can't let the psi number get to high or you'll run into the parsitic loss wall. So after awhile, your only option to buy back some of that parasitic loss is to increase the displacement...which can get expensive, but then again the vortech was cheap to begin with
but comparing prices
vortech tuner kit $4000
install $1500
4.24 stroker short block $9000
= $14,500
vs
TT tuner kit $6000
install $3000
basic short block $4500
=$13,500
these cars would feel completely different
it's all the little things that you gotta add to the vortech to get big power out of it that add up like cams, headers, blower upgrade, CAI, etc etc
IMO the T-trim is obsolete now with the Si-trim being out. It might flow slightly more, but IMO it's just not worth the expense over the much cheaper Si-trim especially when the Si-trim is more efficient anyway.
but yeah, the vortech really needs every bit of help it can get to a lot of power out of it. Turbos can just throw more psi at the engine, but you'll eventually end up with a compromised tq curve. It'll be like a mountain peak in the midrange, but the high rpms power starts to die off, or it'll suck at low rpms, then spike up at high rpms. This is why displacement is so nice for keeping the tq curve fairly flat
The vortech is a nice compromise because as you add more power, the entire powerband gains power and doesn't have the low rpms clamped down. The drawback is you can't let the psi number get to high or you'll run into the parsitic loss wall. So after awhile, your only option to buy back some of that parasitic loss is to increase the displacement...which can get expensive, but then again the vortech was cheap to begin with
but comparing prices
vortech tuner kit $4000
install $1500
4.24 stroker short block $9000
= $14,500
vs
TT tuner kit $6000
install $3000
basic short block $4500
=$13,500
these cars would feel completely different
it's all the little things that you gotta add to the vortech to get big power out of it that add up like cams, headers, blower upgrade, CAI, etc etc
HMMMM seems we had a arguement a while back . You were addiment that the SC's parasitic loss was very little and contributed very little to the loss of power over a turbo set up . You seem to change you point of view when ever it suits you . funny isnt it ?
01-25-2008, 10:45 PM
#28
Originally Posted by booger
You altered this post 40 minutes after I posted a reply to it . You fixed the statement you made about the throttlebody having an effect on parasitic loss [ we know it doesnt,
how do you explain how I edited it 6 minutes BEFORE you posted your comments in post #21?????
On my computer/time zone, it says I edited post #19 at 4:19 pm And you made post #21 at 4:25pm...
I didn't go back and edit my post #19 after your post #21 at all - just look at the time stamps
BTW I was at work, and had the edit screen up for awhile editing that post before I finally hit the edit post button in my spare time between working. I was mostly adding in my comments about reving high BTW. I didn't edit anything about the throttlebody.
Last edited by sentry65; 01-25-2008 at 11:06 PM.
01-25-2008, 10:48 PM
#29
Originally Posted by booger
HMMMM seems we had a arguement a while back . You were addiment that the SC's parasitic loss was very little and contributed very little to the loss of power over a turbo set up . You seem to change you point of view when ever it suits you . funny isnt it ?
of course the parasitic loss is high when pushing around 20-26 psi with a supercharger.
PSI is a measure of how much air isn't easily flowing through the engine, hence the pressure build up
Last edited by sentry65; 01-26-2008 at 12:05 AM.
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