Brian Crower Stage 3's Preliminary test results are in!
05-26-2008, 07:00 AM
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Originally Posted by Julian@MRC
No it does not..
I argued the point with HKS till I was blue in the face, believe me...
What I dont understand is all the people bashing the BC cams..No one ever bashed any other cams on this site, like the JWT,GTM, Nismo, ect...
All i know is we got perfect vacume at idle. the car makes good midrange power, and seems to want to make the top end power once boost is increased..Only time will tell..
But whats with all the KA guys becoming experts on the VQ motor and the BC cams all of a sudden?
Just take in the results for what they are, everyone knows I will post my findings either way.
I argued the point with HKS till I was blue in the face, believe me...What I dont understand is all the people bashing the BC cams..No one ever bashed any other cams on this site, like the JWT,GTM, Nismo, ect...
All i know is we got perfect vacume at idle. the car makes good midrange power, and seems to want to make the top end power once boost is increased..Only time will tell..
But whats with all the KA guys becoming experts on the VQ motor and the BC cams all of a sudden?
Just take in the results for what they are, everyone knows I will post my findings either way.
I'm not criticizing your setup. I'm just wondering if you can have the best of both worlds.
If you keep the intake cam advanced into the higher rpms, the torque will fall off pretty hard. The only real way to figure out if the BC stg3 have more advance ground into them verus stg2 is to use a degree wheel and a dial indicator and take some measurements. The cam timing will rest at full retard with no oil pressure.
On your stg2 dyno run was your SES light on? When I first turboed my car I had some O2 sensor codes, no big deal right? I later figured out that those codes would disable the VTC. Here is dyno graph of my car with stock cams, with and without the VTC functioning. Either way it will be interesting to see some higher boost and rpms runs.
Last edited by Mike Wazowski; 06-20-2008 at 01:05 PM.
05-26-2008, 08:06 AM
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i happen to like bc parts,but the aftermarket in general has been known to throw a few degrees advance in and should be checked,i check #1 if they pay or not,personal motors and big budget builds i check every lobe.as long as you have a spec card you can verify how the cam is installed and the acuracy of the grind.manufacturer's say they add to account for stacking tolerences but i believe its that plus they choose to err on the side of a fat torque mid-range.comp-cams even goes as far to admit they add 4 degree's in their catalog(fine print of course).it causes lots of problems when a person trys advancing the cam 4 degrees and it already has it,now you have 8 and it'll barely run.your dyno plot seems to indicate some advance might be built in and you should verify if you hope to see the full high-rpm potential of the stage 3's.
05-26-2008, 09:41 AM
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Originally Posted by ForcefedZ
I'm not criticizing your setup. I'm just wondering if you can have the best of both worlds.
If you keep the intake cam advanced into the higher rpms, the torque will fall off pretty hard. The only real way to figure out if the BC stg3 have more advance ground into them verus stg2 is to use a degree wheel and a dial indicator and take some measurements. The cam timing will rest at full retard with no oil pressure.
On your stg2 dyno run was your SES light on? When I first turboed my car I had some O2 sensor codes, no big deal right? I later figured out that those codes would disable the VTC. Here is dyno graph of my car with stock cams, with and without the VTC functioning. Either way it will be interesting to see some higher boost and rpms runs.
If you keep the intake cam advanced into the higher rpms, the torque will fall off pretty hard. The only real way to figure out if the BC stg3 have more advance ground into them verus stg2 is to use a degree wheel and a dial indicator and take some measurements. The cam timing will rest at full retard with no oil pressure.
On your stg2 dyno run was your SES light on? When I first turboed my car I had some O2 sensor codes, no big deal right? I later figured out that those codes would disable the VTC. Here is dyno graph of my car with stock cams, with and without the VTC functioning. Either way it will be interesting to see some higher boost and rpms runs.
05-26-2008, 09:43 AM
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Originally Posted by go-fast
i happen to like bc parts,but the aftermarket in general has been known to throw a few degrees advance in and should be checked,i check #1 if they pay or not,personal motors and big budget builds i check every lobe.as long as you have a spec card you can verify how the cam is installed and the acuracy of the grind.manufacturer's say they add to account for stacking tolerences but i believe its that plus they choose to err on the side of a fat torque mid-range.comp-cams even goes as far to admit they add 4 degree's in their catalog(fine print of course).it causes lots of problems when a person trys advancing the cam 4 degrees and it already has it,now you have 8 and it'll barely run.your dyno plot seems to indicate some advance might be built in and you should verify if you hope to see the full high-rpm potential of the stage 3's.
But I kinda like my low end TQ that the setup seemed to miss with the larger turbos we added..
05-26-2008, 09:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Julian@MRC
I had and still have SE slight on my car, but for a broken clock spring in my steering wheel disabling my VDC and SLIP, also for no cats obviously.But nothing ever for any VTC related issues..
05-26-2008, 10:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Julian@MRC
I honestly dont know what the intentions for you comments were, however, I will post my HP finding either way and the results, unbiased and true..
To date I have sold ZERO sets of BC cams FWIW..
To date I have sold ZERO sets of BC cams FWIW..
Originally Posted by Julian@MRC
Now please expound to me, as to how you suggest I prove or disprove at this point that the cam timing is correct? All I know is that I went form JWT cams on my motor, to BC2's and the results were astounding..I then went with the BC3' over the 2's and the results thus far have me satisfied driving the car..
Originally Posted by Julian@MRC
if someone can please prove their findings legitimately with some factual data the BC cams are not degreed properly, please do so..
Perhaps the specs for the cams will clarify.
Perhaps the specs for the cams will clarify.
I cut out a piece of your cam info image and highlighted an important section in red. Note that BC is not giving you any valve timing events. Valve timing events are needed to correctly index a camshaft. BC is says they don't give valve timing events because of the variable valve timing nature of these cams and the VQ engine. They recommend an installer install them straight up (not advanced or retarded) and adjust the cam timing through the tune. You have done exactly what BC recommends for these cams.
I suspect that most VQ tuner/builders do not degree camshafts, mechanically. I could be wrong.
Hope this helps...
05-26-2008, 05:55 PM
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Originally Posted by __jb
My intentions were to show that without using dial indicators or some kind of accurate measuring devices, you can not determine if a set of cams is degreed/indexed correctly. A dyno can not show if cams are indexed correctly.
Exactly. And in general, that's all you or any customer cares about. Somehow you got in a pissing match about cam indexing and it is really irrelevant to your intentions for this engine. The new cams make more horsepower and you are very happy with them. That's all that counts, most of the time. You should have said that and stopped there.
I cut out a piece of your cam info image and highlighted an important section in red. Note that BC is not giving you any valve timing events. Valve timing events are needed to correctly index a camshaft. BC is says they don't give valve timing events because of the variable valve timing nature of these cams and the VQ engine. They recommend an installer install them straight up (not advanced or retarded) and adjust the cam timing through the tune. You have done exactly what BC recommends for these cams.
I suspect that most VQ tuner/builders do not degree camshafts, mechanically. I could be wrong.
Hope this helps...
Exactly. And in general, that's all you or any customer cares about. Somehow you got in a pissing match about cam indexing and it is really irrelevant to your intentions for this engine. The new cams make more horsepower and you are very happy with them. That's all that counts, most of the time. You should have said that and stopped there.
I cut out a piece of your cam info image and highlighted an important section in red. Note that BC is not giving you any valve timing events. Valve timing events are needed to correctly index a camshaft. BC is says they don't give valve timing events because of the variable valve timing nature of these cams and the VQ engine. They recommend an installer install them straight up (not advanced or retarded) and adjust the cam timing through the tune. You have done exactly what BC recommends for these cams.
I suspect that most VQ tuner/builders do not degree camshafts, mechanically. I could be wrong.
Hope this helps...
05-26-2008, 06:59 PM
#88
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Originally Posted by ForcefedZ
I'm not criticizing your setup. I'm just wondering if you can have the best of both worlds.
If you keep the intake cam advanced into the higher rpms, the torque will fall off pretty hard. The only real way to figure out if the BC stg3 have more advance ground into them verus stg2 is to use a degree wheel and a dial indicator and take some measurements. The cam timing will rest at full retard with no oil pressure.
On your stg2 dyno run was your SES light on? When I first turboed my car I had some O2 sensor codes, no big deal right? I later figured out that those codes would disable the VTC. Here is dyno graph of my car with stock cams, with and without the VTC functioning. Either way it will be interesting to see some higher boost and rpms runs.
If you keep the intake cam advanced into the higher rpms, the torque will fall off pretty hard. The only real way to figure out if the BC stg3 have more advance ground into them verus stg2 is to use a degree wheel and a dial indicator and take some measurements. The cam timing will rest at full retard with no oil pressure.
On your stg2 dyno run was your SES light on? When I first turboed my car I had some O2 sensor codes, no big deal right? I later figured out that those codes would disable the VTC. Here is dyno graph of my car with stock cams, with and without the VTC functioning. Either way it will be interesting to see some higher boost and rpms runs.
we did see a power increase with the same boost levels as the old BC2 dyno, and the BC2 one had a slightly more agressive tune in it...But i must say I was not greatly satisified with the results.. You got me thinking about the VCC issue now with the 02 codes. But when I first dynod my car at 11psi the ses light was on, and its been way more than 2 trips since I first dynod it.Here are the dynos, it will be interseting to see how this plays out. I printed them in RAW DD numbers FWIW.
05-26-2008, 07:53 PM
#89
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julian is there any chance this is an effect of the dyno...i know if you hold jsut a tad the load on the DD dyno it can show the tq curves a lil more than usual...
The hp gains do look pretty good still btw
The hp gains do look pretty good still btw
05-27-2008, 03:06 AM
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Originally Posted by Julian@MRC
Now it is interesting you mention the SES light issue and the VTC.. We redyno'd the car tonight at some higher boost levels, and did not see the huge TQ gain we saw at 11psi.. we did see a power increase with the same boost levels as the old BC2 dyno, and the BC2 one had a slightly more agressive tune in it...But i must say I was not greatly satisified with the results.. You got me thinking about the VCC issue now with the 02 codes. But when I first dynod my car at 11psi the ses light was on, and its been way more than 2 trips since I first dynod it.
Here are the dynos, it will be interseting to see how this plays out. I printed them in RAW DD numbers FWIW.
we did see a power increase with the same boost levels as the old BC2 dyno, and the BC2 one had a slightly more agressive tune in it...But i must say I was not greatly satisified with the results.. You got me thinking about the VCC issue now with the 02 codes. But when I first dynod my car at 11psi the ses light was on, and its been way more than 2 trips since I first dynod it.Here are the dynos, it will be interseting to see how this plays out. I printed them in RAW DD numbers FWIW.
The Variable Cam Control is not only to increase engine performance but it also has an emissions related role (notice there isn't an EGR valve) My guess is once the factory computer thinks something is up with the 02 feed back or catalytic converter, it will put the VCT into a default/limp mode to prevent the super expensive platinum converters from being damaged.
When you get a chance put the car back on the dyno and do a pull. Then clear your codes with a scan tool. Cycle the key off, stand on one foot with one eye open and drink a double shot of ethylene glycol. Make another pull. Your missing torque should be back, and in about 30 minutes or so you won't be feeling all that great
05-27-2008, 08:45 AM
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Originally Posted by __jb
My intentions were to show that without using dial indicators or some kind of accurate measuring devices, you can not determine if a set of cams is degreed/indexed correctly. A dyno can not show if cams are indexed correctly.
Exactly. And in general, that's all you or any customer cares about. Somehow you got in a pissing match about cam indexing and it is really irrelevant to your intentions for this engine. The new cams make more horsepower and you are very happy with them. That's all that counts, most of the time. You should have said that and stopped there.
I cut out a piece of your cam info image and highlighted an important section in red. Note that BC is not giving you any valve timing events. Valve timing events are needed to correctly index a camshaft. BC is says they don't give valve timing events because of the variable valve timing nature of these cams and the VQ engine. They recommend an installer install them straight up (not advanced or retarded) and adjust the cam timing through the tune. You have done exactly what BC recommends for these cams.
I suspect that most VQ tuner/builders do not degree camshafts, mechanically. I could be wrong.
Hope this helps...
Exactly. And in general, that's all you or any customer cares about. Somehow you got in a pissing match about cam indexing and it is really irrelevant to your intentions for this engine. The new cams make more horsepower and you are very happy with them. That's all that counts, most of the time. You should have said that and stopped there.
I cut out a piece of your cam info image and highlighted an important section in red. Note that BC is not giving you any valve timing events. Valve timing events are needed to correctly index a camshaft. BC is says they don't give valve timing events because of the variable valve timing nature of these cams and the VQ engine. They recommend an installer install them straight up (not advanced or retarded) and adjust the cam timing through the tune. You have done exactly what BC recommends for these cams.
I suspect that most VQ tuner/builders do not degree camshafts, mechanically. I could be wrong.
Hope this helps...
Last edited by go-fast; 05-27-2008 at 10:41 AM.
05-27-2008, 10:27 AM
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Originally Posted by go-fast
even if you install the cam straight up it might still be starting 4 degrees ahead of a stock cam that is the point.
Originally Posted by go-fast
you dont need a cam card to determine valve events and should still be compared to stock.
Originally Posted by go-fast
as far as variable timing,julians 03 has control over exhaust only,so bc's statement is bunk.static event specs have to be available or they would not be able to make the cam.
Of course the cams' timing events are available to the fellow that ground the cams... the point is that they are not available to Julian. BC appears to be saying... install these cams straight up and tune to suit.
I'm going to stop posting about this. I hate it when someone comes in and takes an interesting thread all technical and I did it myself. It's interesting, but really off topic based on Julian's original post. The fact that the cam centerlines might be ground more advanced or retarded than you would like/expect is really irrelevant as long as the valves don't hit the pistons and the motor runs better than it did with the old cams!
05-27-2008, 10:39 AM
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Originally Posted by __jb
You're absolutely correct. But it seems that that's what BC wants.
You mean just line up TDC of the BC intakes with the TDC point of the OEM Intake cams. I'm not sure I'd make that assumption.
I believe Julian's '03 only has control over the intakes.
Of course the cams' timing events are available to the fellow that ground the cams... the point is that they are not available to Julian. BC appears to be saying... install these cams straight up and tune to suit.
I'm going to stop posting about this. I hate it when someone comes in and takes an interesting thread all technical and I did it myself. It's interesting, but really off topic based on Julian's original post. The fact that the cam centerlines might be ground more advanced or retarded than you would like/expect is really irrelevant as long as the valves don't hit the pistons and the motor runs better than it did with the old cams!
You mean just line up TDC of the BC intakes with the TDC point of the OEM Intake cams. I'm not sure I'd make that assumption.
I believe Julian's '03 only has control over the intakes.
Of course the cams' timing events are available to the fellow that ground the cams... the point is that they are not available to Julian. BC appears to be saying... install these cams straight up and tune to suit.
I'm going to stop posting about this. I hate it when someone comes in and takes an interesting thread all technical and I did it myself. It's interesting, but really off topic based on Julian's original post. The fact that the cam centerlines might be ground more advanced or retarded than you would like/expect is really irrelevant as long as the valves don't hit the pistons and the motor runs better than it did with the old cams!
Last edited by go-fast; 05-27-2008 at 08:53 PM.
05-27-2008, 10:42 AM
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Just out of curiosity I emailed BC this morning in regards to some of the questions asked in this thread about degreeing their cams on a VQ.
They emailed me right back (good customer service) and told me the VQ cams were engineered to be installed to the factory timing marks.
They emailed me right back (good customer service) and told me the VQ cams were engineered to be installed to the factory timing marks.
05-27-2008, 03:37 PM
#95
Originally Posted by __jb
I suspect that most VQ tuner/builders do not degree camshafts, mechanically. I could be wrong.
Hope this helps...
I have a custom setup for using a degree wheel and for fitting a dial indicator to check the cams on these engines.
05-28-2008, 09:35 AM
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Originally Posted by QuadCam
JB,
I have a custom setup for using a degree wheel and for fitting a dial indicator to check the cams on these engines.
I have a custom setup for using a degree wheel and for fitting a dial indicator to check the cams on these engines.
PM sent.
05-30-2008, 01:13 PM
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Update...We did some more preliminary tuning on some C16. This is not the final tune, we slowly plan on raising boost levels on this motor. At 18.5 Psi the car made some promosing power, right to 7500 RPMs with NO POWER LOSS...We plan on reving it out to 8000 RPMS after we make the summer with the motor.. LOL
We also tried to do the SES reset code like Forcfed Z suggested, and it did nothing as far as low end power.
These are the preliminary numbers at standard Dyno Dynamics numbers...
We also tried to do the SES reset code like Forcfed Z suggested, and it did nothing as far as low end power.
These are the preliminary numbers at standard Dyno Dynamics numbers...
05-30-2008, 01:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Julian@MRC
Update...We did some more preliminary tuning on some C16. This is not the final tune, we slowly plan on raising boost levels on this motor. At 18.5 Psi the car made some promosing power, right to 7500 RPMs with NO POWER LOSS...We plan on reving it out to 8000 RPMS after we make the summer with the motor.. LOL
i dont wanna wait till end of summer Julian crack it to 8000rpms now!!! and crack it to 25 psi too
i think this is the best perofrmance beyond 7000 rpms on the aps extreme yet...
Last edited by IIQuickSilverII; 05-30-2008 at 02:01 PM.
