Feeler on Custom External Swirl/Surge Tank
01-13-2009, 06:06 PM
#21
looks like trackpack knows what hes talking about.
also, ttg35fort, your diagram is perfect
edit: im crazy... hope no one read that entire long post LOL i was forgetting something very basic and went off on a huge tangent
also, ttg35fort, your diagram is perfect
edit: im crazy... hope no one read that entire long post LOL i was forgetting something very basic and went off on a huge tangent
Last edited by phunk; 01-13-2009 at 06:16 PM.
01-13-2009, 06:26 PM
#23
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Edited for Phunk, I wrote half a page to explain it again and had to delete it lol.
OP: I might be too harsh on the A1000, its a good pump but I have seen 2 failures so far, and it is louder than the SX, the edelbrock "quiet flow" is a SX pump, but I will say the last few I have heard seem to be quieter than the fist few I heard and hated. Maybe better tolerances than before? Anyways good luck with the project and any questions just keep asking!
OP: I might be too harsh on the A1000, its a good pump but I have seen 2 failures so far, and it is louder than the SX, the edelbrock "quiet flow" is a SX pump, but I will say the last few I have heard seem to be quieter than the fist few I heard and hated. Maybe better tolerances than before? Anyways good luck with the project and any questions just keep asking!
Last edited by TrackPack; 01-13-2009 at 06:36 PM.
01-13-2009, 06:30 PM
#24
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TrackpAck, do you remember the old Cartech pumps? I think they were rebranded SX pumps.....before SX got into the car market (back in the early to mid 90s). I had one on a MUstang Cobra, and it was awesome. not too noisy; couldn't hear it over my exhaust. 
The new SX pumps don't look anything like the current ones. the old ones looked like the current aeromotive a1000.
The new SX pumps don't look anything like the current ones. the old ones looked like the current aeromotive a1000.
I remember cartech being well respected back in the day but I cant seem to picture what they looked like. wouldnt surprise me if they were the "essex" automotive pump.
01-13-2009, 06:36 PM
#25
Phunk the concept is a little different than your seeing, the A1000 is in actuality only cycling the fuel in the surge tank through the rails, the reg, and back to the surge tank, if the injectors were off(motor off) and the A1000 was running constantly it would just cause a continuous cycle round and round,and in fact not adding any pressure to the surge tank. the only pressure the siphon would see is from what ever is in the intank Carrier, same as stock or with walbro. Hope that explains it
01-13-2009, 07:11 PM
#27
Edited for Phunk, I wrote half a page to explain it again and had to delete it lol.
OP: I might be too harsh on the A1000, its a good pump but I have seen 2 failures so far, and it is louder than the SX, the edelbrock "quiet flow" is a SX pump, but I will say the last few I have heard seem to be quieter than the fist few I heard and hated. Maybe better tolerances than before? Anyways good luck with the project and any questions just keep asking!
OP: I might be too harsh on the A1000, its a good pump but I have seen 2 failures so far, and it is louder than the SX, the edelbrock "quiet flow" is a SX pump, but I will say the last few I have heard seem to be quieter than the fist few I heard and hated. Maybe better tolerances than before? Anyways good luck with the project and any questions just keep asking!
01-13-2009, 07:11 PM
#28
Edited for Phunk, I wrote half a page to explain it again and had to delete it lol.
OP: I might be too harsh on the A1000, its a good pump but I have seen 2 failures so far, and it is louder than the SX, the edelbrock "quiet flow" is a SX pump, but I will say the last few I have heard seem to be quieter than the fist few I heard and hated. Maybe better tolerances than before? Anyways good luck with the project and any questions just keep asking!
OP: I might be too harsh on the A1000, its a good pump but I have seen 2 failures so far, and it is louder than the SX, the edelbrock "quiet flow" is a SX pump, but I will say the last few I have heard seem to be quieter than the fist few I heard and hated. Maybe better tolerances than before? Anyways good luck with the project and any questions just keep asking!
no experience with the SX myself
01-13-2009, 07:19 PM
#29
The diagram above is exactly how I have mine setup. I found a sweet deal on a used AAM kit without any plumbing and fabricated my own SS lines. I used -6an from the walbro to feed the swirl tank/Bosch pump and -8an from the Bosch up to the rails.
I too modified the swirl tank with an additional bung to receive overflow.
In addition, unlike the original AAM set-up I relocated the main feed and overflow return (feed #2) to the ends of the tank rather than feeding directly above the -8an line leading to the Bosch. Reason is to avoid pulling any bubbles into the Bosch.
My Theory: When you feed the swirl tank the fuel will naturally make some turbulence and bubbles which you don't want being run up to the rails.
Just my .02
I too modified the swirl tank with an additional bung to receive overflow.
In addition, unlike the original AAM set-up I relocated the main feed and overflow return (feed #2) to the ends of the tank rather than feeding directly above the -8an line leading to the Bosch. Reason is to avoid pulling any bubbles into the Bosch.
My Theory: When you feed the swirl tank the fuel will naturally make some turbulence and bubbles which you don't want being run up to the rails.
Just my .02
The feed from the main fuel line into the surge tank is offset from the feed out to the external fuel pump.
01-13-2009, 07:48 PM
#30
OK, you guys convinced me. I just purchased an SX Model 18203 Fuel Pump.
I am putting the Aeromotive A1000 up for sale. I'll have my son post it on Ebay.
Edit: I even updated my drawing.
I am putting the Aeromotive A1000 up for sale. I'll have my son post it on Ebay.
Edit: I even updated my drawing.
Last edited by ttg35fort; 01-13-2009 at 07:56 PM.
01-13-2009, 09:00 PM
#31
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Congrats man! Welcome to the Sx Family
On a site note, I was thinking about the whole returning strait to the gas tank thing, aside from it being totally wrong, it would cause fuel pressure issues like a son of a b*tch! due to the intank siphon......ya its just wrong...would have caused you so much grief in the future.
Good luck with the project!
On a site note, I was thinking about the whole returning strait to the gas tank thing, aside from it being totally wrong, it would cause fuel pressure issues like a son of a b*tch! due to the intank siphon......ya its just wrong...would have caused you so much grief in the future.
Good luck with the project!
01-13-2009, 09:17 PM
#32
Congrats man! Welcome to the Sx Family
On a site note, I was thinking about the whole returning strait to the gas tank thing, aside from it being totally wrong, it would cause fuel pressure issues like a son of a b*tch! due to the intank siphon......ya its just wrong...would have caused you so much grief in the future.
Good luck with the project!
On a site note, I was thinking about the whole returning strait to the gas tank thing, aside from it being totally wrong, it would cause fuel pressure issues like a son of a b*tch! due to the intank siphon......ya its just wrong...would have caused you so much grief in the future.
Good luck with the project!
The reason I am adding the surge tank is because the SPR tripple pump hangar does away with the internal swirl tank. Although this is fine for normal street use, I am concerned about having fuel pickup issues when running Sebring and Homestead. I have not yet tested the tripple pump hanger on the road course, but due to my fuel pickup issues in my last event, I am a little paranoid. I am adding the external surge tank to insure I don't lose fuel flow in high G turns. Thus far, fuel pressure has only been a problem when the stock swirl tank ran dry. That was before I added the SPR tripple pump hangar, but without the internal swirl tank, I now am concerned that when I enter a sweeping turn the gas in the fuel tank will slosh to one side and leave the internal fuel pumps dry for a short period. The external swirl tank should provide enough fuel reserve to maintain adequate fuel flow until the fuel pump(s) in the fuel tank are again picking up fuel after the turn is completed.
Last edited by ttg35fort; 01-13-2009 at 09:59 PM.
01-13-2009, 10:38 PM
#33
JETPILOT found some really nice surge tanks that are very reasonably priced. Had I found these (and I did search, but obviously not thorough enough), I probably would never had started this thread. Check his thread out:
https://my350z.com/forum/forced-indu...ea-thread.html
https://my350z.com/forum/forced-indu...ea-thread.html
01-13-2009, 11:23 PM
#34
The surge tanks that JETPILOT found are probably more economically feasable, but for any of you DYI guys, you are welcome to use this design. The 6063 aluminum selected for this surge tank is for low psi (e.g. the primary fuel pump supplying the fuel rails is installed after the surge tank). If you install the surge tank between the primary fuel pump and the fuel rails, use a higher strength aluminum and/or a greater wall thickness.
I take absolutely no responsibility for any results for use of this design, good or bad.
These pictures aren't so darn wide.
I take absolutely no responsibility for any results for use of this design, good or bad.
These pictures aren't so darn wide.
Last edited by ttg35fort; 01-22-2009 at 06:26 AM.
01-14-2009, 12:27 AM
#36
I currently have two Walbros active and one as a backup should one of the first two fail. But having two Walbros working is quite noisy, and very irritating. With one Walbro, I never noticed the noise, but with two Walbros active the noise is definitely irritating. I am going to go back to the stock fuel pump assembly with a single Walbro (and holes drilled into the stock swirl tank to allow greater fuel flow in), and let the external fuel pump handle the fuel load. The noise factor is also the reason I decided to ditch the A1000 in favor of the SX fuel pump based on the comments posted herein.
Last edited by ttg35fort; 01-14-2009 at 12:34 AM.
01-14-2009, 05:49 AM
#37
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I absolutely mean no disrespect, and you have provided some very good information, but I'm not completely understanding this last post. Although I have not yet installed the external surge tank, I have always ran the fuel return system strait to the gas tank. In fact, right now I have a SPR tripple pump hangar and the fuel return runs into their venturi tube, and everything works great under normal conditions.
.
.
So with an external siphon with larger orifices(couldn't be smaller than stock lol) you would likely not encounter any problems, I'm also going to assume sound dosnt recommend running all 3 walbros out of boost? Because that is just a useless amount of fuel and a large load on the alternator, less load= more gas mileage! Hah
Anyways if it were my car, and this is just an opinion, I would ditch the 3pump hanger, go oem hanger with oem pump(or walbro but its louder/less reliable,and over kill if surge tank is routed proper and proper size)
feeding the surge tank and then to the SX. ect....
I also prefer vertical surge tanks to horizontal mounts for my own reasons.
a side note on tank design, I recommend a vertical cylinder design with the fittings for the oem pump feed and the regulator return to surge tank in a staggered fashion, Hard to explain, but imagine looking at a box, now one fitting is at the top left corner and the other fitting is on the bottom right(this is top view) now keeping the fittings at that same angle apply that to the cylinder, they would appose each other in a staggered fashion as to cause a swirl affect, thats a proper "swirl pot" it helps keep bubbles and slosh to a minimum.
A pic's worth a thousand words I guess....
notice how the fittings are angled on the side? they could be on the same side but preferable on the apposing side angled as well to create the swirl affect.
I might be rambling now....I'll leave it at this for now lol.
01-14-2009, 04:58 PM
#38
a side note on tank design, I recommend a vertical cylinder design with the fittings for the oem pump feed and the regulator return to surge tank in a staggered fashion, Hard to explain, but imagine looking at a box, now one fitting is at the top left corner and the other fitting is on the bottom right(this is top view) now keeping the fittings at that same angle apply that to the cylinder, they would appose each other in a staggered fashion as to cause a swirl affect, thats a proper "swirl pot" it helps keep bubbles and slosh to a minimum.
notice how the fittings are angled on the side? they could be on the same side but preferable on the apposing side angled as well to create the swirl affect.
notice how the fittings are angled on the side? they could be on the same side but preferable on the apposing side angled as well to create the swirl affect.
Thank you for the explanation. I understand now. Also, thanks for the advice on the bung installation. I'll modify my drawing to have them installed at an angle.
As shown in my drawing, I am ditching the triple pump hangar and going back to the stock fuel pump setup, but I'll use the venturi that came with the tripple pump hanger as it seems to work well.
I also like a vertical swirl tank better, there just is no way to fit a swirl tank vertically under my car, and I'm trying to avoid losing more trunk space. I used to be able to fit two sets of golf clubs in my trunk. With the meth tank/pump in the trunk, I now can only fit one. I do like to golf, so giving up more trunk space is not appealing to me. Of course, I can always fold down the back of the rear seat, but if my horizontally mounted surge tank works (I'm very confident it will), then it is a better option for me, and I already have all of the parts needed for Paul to fabricate it. I put the internal baffles in the design to reduce fuel slosh.
Last edited by ttg35fort; 01-14-2009 at 06:58 PM.
