ATI Concern With A 5AT
08-27-2003, 01:00 PM
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ATI Concern With A 5AT
For those of you that have a 5AT and a Procharger/Turbo...
I just got off the phone with my installer and he said that ATI told them that the 350Z has some issues shifting under full boost. IE, under WOT the 5AT doesn't want to shift.
I know Jetjammer, Max and myself have the procharger installed and all have 5AT's. I have two questions. First, has anyone else with a 5AT encountered this problem and secondly, what options do we have to eliminate this porblem?
I called techno square today and they said they don't have anyhting for this. I have placed a call into Wolf technologies but haven't heard anything yet. I would guess it would be an easy ECU delete?
I hope there is an easy fix?
I just got off the phone with my installer and he said that ATI told them that the 350Z has some issues shifting under full boost. IE, under WOT the 5AT doesn't want to shift.
I know Jetjammer, Max and myself have the procharger installed and all have 5AT's. I have two questions. First, has anyone else with a 5AT encountered this problem and secondly, what options do we have to eliminate this porblem?
I called techno square today and they said they don't have anyhting for this. I have placed a call into Wolf technologies but haven't heard anything yet. I would guess it would be an easy ECU delete?
I hope there is an easy fix?
08-27-2003, 01:35 PM
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I have a bit of good advice for that.
5AT's do have an issue with the Automatic upshift under full boost. I know my buddy that has the auto is just getting good at shifting manual. *Do Not let it hit the revlimter*
Reasons for this are..... (well other then the 100+ extra HP) ....well I don't know. But I am sure that there is something in the computer that is preprogramed that doesn't understand why the car has so much more power.
But I can tell you when you shift them manualy you will notice a buck right when the gear changes. I have a very strong hypothisis for this. Like many GM cars and trucks, when you shift manualy, the computer will take timming out (lots of it) for a split second to help take the strain off the tranny during a full throttle upshift (boosted or not).
So once you get used to that slight jerk on the shift, you will be ok. I know when I had a wide band (fjo) on my buddies car, the A/F ratio was right on the money, even with the shifting hickup.
So no real easy fix, other then just shift it with the manual option. And have your buddy follow you, to see if you get the cool "import flame" shoot out the muffler tips.
(Due to the retarding of the timing, and good amount of fuel )
I am sure that Techno Square will sometime have some way of adjusting shift points, line pressure, and revlimiters, for these auto cars. Maybe somone eles will even have one out sooner. Since I am willing to bet there are A LOT of G35 owners that would be intrested in that *cough cough*
EA
5AT's do have an issue with the Automatic upshift under full boost. I know my buddy that has the auto is just getting good at shifting manual. *Do Not let it hit the revlimter*
Reasons for this are..... (well other then the 100+ extra HP) ....well I don't know. But I am sure that there is something in the computer that is preprogramed that doesn't understand why the car has so much more power.
But I can tell you when you shift them manualy you will notice a buck right when the gear changes. I have a very strong hypothisis for this. Like many GM cars and trucks, when you shift manualy, the computer will take timming out (lots of it) for a split second to help take the strain off the tranny during a full throttle upshift (boosted or not).
So once you get used to that slight jerk on the shift, you will be ok. I know when I had a wide band (fjo) on my buddies car, the A/F ratio was right on the money, even with the shifting hickup.
So no real easy fix, other then just shift it with the manual option. And have your buddy follow you, to see if you get the cool "import flame" shoot out the muffler tips.
(Due to the retarding of the timing, and good amount of fuel )I am sure that Techno Square will sometime have some way of adjusting shift points, line pressure, and revlimiters, for these auto cars. Maybe somone eles will even have one out sooner. Since I am willing to bet there are A LOT of G35 owners that would be intrested in that *cough cough*
EA
Last edited by TheSVTKid; 08-27-2003 at 01:42 PM.
11-23-2003, 03:34 PM
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I've had my ProCharger for a little over 1000 miles and have the same problem with shifting at WOT. Scared the $%#@ out of me when I hit the limiter. Did you find anything to correct it? I'm really concerned that ATI is aware of this and dealers are installing it without telling customers these problems exist. Who needs a supercharger that you can't take through the gears. If I wanted a manual trans, I would have bought a 6MT. I'm really starting to regret this purchase. I'll be calling ATI and my dealer after the holidays.
11-23-2003, 04:01 PM
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Sorry there is no known fix to date. I have been pondering the Technosquare ECU falsh but no one knows for sure if that will work? I spoke to Tadashi about this last week. We beleive that increasing the rev limiter may help but it could also hurt the engine if the timing isn't corrected. Higher revs means more boost.
How much RWHP are you putting down? Some 5AT's do not have this problem. I am thinking those that put down a significant amount of power do. The other 5AT that had this problem dynoed 375 RWHP.
ATI does know about this issue. It is not specific to the kit. I think you will see others with different kits complain of this issue.
How much RWHP are you putting down? Some 5AT's do not have this problem. I am thinking those that put down a significant amount of power do. The other 5AT that had this problem dynoed 375 RWHP.
ATI does know about this issue. It is not specific to the kit. I think you will see others with different kits complain of this issue.
11-23-2003, 06:57 PM
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Thanks for the post. I have a G35 and they don't seem to put up the numbers that the Z's are. A/F is rich @ 11:1 but I'm not changing it until I get some good answers about other things and am convinced this isn't going to cost me more money down the road. The way this kit has been marketed by the dealers, I really thought this was going to be pretty painless. I've run superchargers on older cars and have a number of friends with late model Mustangs and Cameros running with competitors products with no problem. One with over 568rwhp (his engine is built up). When a dealer is doing the install on a new purchase it's an endorsement as far as I'm concerned. I wouldn't have paid 41K for this kind of frustration. I read one of your other post and it sounds like we've had a similar experience with the lack of info. and manuals until I requested them. My removed factory parts have not been recovered though. Did you change your spark plugs? I read that in the manual two nights ago and figured the dealer must have done it but based on one of your previous post I better check...I also knew nothing of changing the oil at 500 miles. The dealer said to change it at the regular interval for the engine. I'm glad ATI is addressing some of the issues about racing and what not, but that's not me. I do expect to be able to floor it on an open road every now and then with out the car skipping down the road as it bounces on the rev limiter. I think I'll be testing Infiniti's commitment to customer service...
Thanks,
BlownG
Sorry for the rant...
Thanks,
BlownG
Sorry for the rant...
11-23-2003, 07:35 PM
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Originally posted by BlownG
I do expect to be able to floor it on an open road every now and then with out the car skipping down the road as it bounces on the rev limiter. I think I'll be testing Infiniti's commitment to customer service...
I do expect to be able to floor it on an open road every now and then with out the car skipping down the road as it bounces on the rev limiter. I think I'll be testing Infiniti's commitment to customer service...
--Steve
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11-23-2003, 07:52 PM
#8
When I spoke with Stillen a while back about their AT kit before it was released, I was told that one of the differences between thier MT kit and AT kit was that programming was incorporated into their piggy-back unit to cut boost during shifts. I'm not sure how this is accomplished, but apparently it can be done and is meant to address this issue.
11-23-2003, 08:33 PM
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A5T here, no shifting issues, TS and P.E. in the Bay Area. I run 11.5 at all times and my rev limiter is 7100 but I never get close to that. I shift fine in manual mode and OD and Tadishi has driven my car and can confirm this to be true in all gears at all boost levels. I have the tuner kit with FMIC, TS ECU and P.E. fuel injectors on stock plat plugs. 10.5k miles on car.
11-23-2003, 08:35 PM
#10
Since I am going with the PE kit for my G, I talked to Danny of TS about this. He said that the problem seemed isolated to that "one car", the AT 350Z and that there were a couple of other turbo owners on 350Z AT's that did not have this shift problem. Now that you guys are mentioning several cases, as I understand, of this happening . I am a little concerned. My PE TT kit is going in in 2 weeks, I hope I will not run into this. I have an updated Torque converter and will have a tuned TS ECU for the PE kit. Maybe the flashed ECU treats these shift points differently? I know that the momentary power backup at shiftpoints was removed in the ECU update for the AT cars, Z's and G's...
Gurgen
Gurgen
Last edited by GurgenPB; 11-23-2003 at 11:02 PM.
11-23-2003, 09:30 PM
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Hi Steve,
When I mentioned Infiniti, I was referring to the dealer. Since I purchased the system installed in a new vehicle, I should work through them to resolve any issues I have. That's all I meant by it. The people at the dealership I bought my car from are all great. I do however think they were aware of some of the issues because of the number of installs they have done. There is a significant representation on these boards by other people that have similar issues as I do that they did the install for. Their posts are dated months before I made my purchase and I know several of them have had ongoing conversations with ATI and their installers. My main problem is the information was not available to me as a consumer to make an informed decision on my purchase. I was well aware of the risks associated with supercharging the car (I’ve been around FI since I was 15), but when something as important as up shifting does not work and that information is known by the manufacturer and potentially the dealer, I have a problem with that information not getting to me. I would not have bought the kit if I had known about this issue. I love the car and I'm a big fan of FI but when a luxury car dealer (not Spanky's Speed Shop) is installing kits on brand new 35K+ cars they need to make sure they and their customers know what their getting into. I really don't think my dealer does, I do...now.
Where there is smoke there is fire…and hindsight is 20/20.
-BlownG
When I mentioned Infiniti, I was referring to the dealer. Since I purchased the system installed in a new vehicle, I should work through them to resolve any issues I have. That's all I meant by it. The people at the dealership I bought my car from are all great. I do however think they were aware of some of the issues because of the number of installs they have done. There is a significant representation on these boards by other people that have similar issues as I do that they did the install for. Their posts are dated months before I made my purchase and I know several of them have had ongoing conversations with ATI and their installers. My main problem is the information was not available to me as a consumer to make an informed decision on my purchase. I was well aware of the risks associated with supercharging the car (I’ve been around FI since I was 15), but when something as important as up shifting does not work and that information is known by the manufacturer and potentially the dealer, I have a problem with that information not getting to me. I would not have bought the kit if I had known about this issue. I love the car and I'm a big fan of FI but when a luxury car dealer (not Spanky's Speed Shop) is installing kits on brand new 35K+ cars they need to make sure they and their customers know what their getting into. I really don't think my dealer does, I do...now.
Where there is smoke there is fire…and hindsight is 20/20.
-BlownG
Last edited by BlownG; 11-23-2003 at 09:36 PM.
11-23-2003, 10:24 PM
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well, I didn't have this problem initially when I dyno'd at 331hp.
with some changes (+.5psi increase) and colder temps, I ran
into the rev limiter in auto mode sometimes. I now always
go manual mode if I get itchy or nervous... no biggy, just a
nudge to the right... the auto is still good for traffic...
I looked in the service manual for the shift schedule. There's
a normal and a full throttle shift schedule. I think the problem
is quite simple. The full throttle shift schedule starts the shift
really late (closer to rpm limit than other cars in the past). Thats
great normally, but with the ATI, the revs (especially in 1st) go
up so fast that it hits the rev limiter before the shift takes place.
I think the best solution for this is to simply get the TS ECU and
raise the limit to 7100 to give it more time to shift. Another
solution would be to ask my J&S to retard *a lot* at the RPM it
starts to shift (haven't tested this idea yet).
with some changes (+.5psi increase) and colder temps, I ran
into the rev limiter in auto mode sometimes. I now always
go manual mode if I get itchy or nervous... no biggy, just a
nudge to the right... the auto is still good for traffic...
I looked in the service manual for the shift schedule. There's
a normal and a full throttle shift schedule. I think the problem
is quite simple. The full throttle shift schedule starts the shift
really late (closer to rpm limit than other cars in the past). Thats
great normally, but with the ATI, the revs (especially in 1st) go
up so fast that it hits the rev limiter before the shift takes place.
I think the best solution for this is to simply get the TS ECU and
raise the limit to 7100 to give it more time to shift. Another
solution would be to ask my J&S to retard *a lot* at the RPM it
starts to shift (haven't tested this idea yet).
11-23-2003, 11:05 PM
#13
Originally posted by N4Spd
well, I didn't have this problem initially when I dyno'd at 331hp.
with some changes (+.5psi increase) and colder temps, I ran
into the rev limiter in auto mode sometimes. I now always
go manual mode if I get itchy or nervous... no biggy, just a
nudge to the right... the auto is still good for traffic...
I looked in the service manual for the shift schedule. There's
a normal and a full throttle shift schedule. I think the problem
is quite simple. The full throttle shift schedule starts the shift
really late (closer to rpm limit than other cars in the past). Thats
great normally, but with the ATI, the revs (especially in 1st) go
up so fast that it hits the rev limiter before the shift takes place.
I think the best solution for this is to simply get the TS ECU and
raise the limit to 7100 to give it more time to shift. Another
solution would be to ask my J&S to retard *a lot* at the RPM it
starts to shift (haven't tested this idea yet).
well, I didn't have this problem initially when I dyno'd at 331hp.
with some changes (+.5psi increase) and colder temps, I ran
into the rev limiter in auto mode sometimes. I now always
go manual mode if I get itchy or nervous... no biggy, just a
nudge to the right... the auto is still good for traffic...
I looked in the service manual for the shift schedule. There's
a normal and a full throttle shift schedule. I think the problem
is quite simple. The full throttle shift schedule starts the shift
really late (closer to rpm limit than other cars in the past). Thats
great normally, but with the ATI, the revs (especially in 1st) go
up so fast that it hits the rev limiter before the shift takes place.
I think the best solution for this is to simply get the TS ECU and
raise the limit to 7100 to give it more time to shift. Another
solution would be to ask my J&S to retard *a lot* at the RPM it
starts to shift (haven't tested this idea yet).
Thanks for your help in advance guys.
Gurgen
11-24-2003, 08:22 AM
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I called TS and they are only aware of ONE car (A5T) not shifting correctly but they have never seen the car they are just going by what the caller said! The guy called there from another state and said it didn't shift right so they are hesitant to work on that cars ECU. Do you blame them? If someone calls you from another state and says my tranny isn't shifting correclty and it's a blown FI car wouldn't you be a little hesitant to ship an ECU out to that car too? They like to be able to have the car there when reprogramming is needed ESPECIALLY shift points. I think this is a good way to do business myself. A company that didn't care if it was right or not and didn't care about their reputation to me would just be like, "Sure it will work, we will ship it right out; just send the 600 bucks!" Know what I mean?
Just trying to play devils advocate here and reinspire hope for those with A5T's who want FI, mine shifts better than it did stock after TS hooked me up!
Just trying to play devils advocate here and reinspire hope for those with A5T's who want FI, mine shifts better than it did stock after TS hooked me up!
11-24-2003, 08:52 AM
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Why don't we start a list of 5 AT's that have probelms shifting under wot. By the way I am not blaming anyone for this issue. I would just like to see it solved. Maybe if tuners see there are multiple cars with issues, they will solve this issue more quickly?
1. Whosdady
1. Whosdady
11-24-2003, 09:43 AM
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Whosdady,
Add me too the list:
1. Whosdady
2. BlownG
I agree, let's try and keep things constructive...I did some WOT "testing" using manual shift and it seems to work "OK". I experienced a significant delay and lurch when shifting around 6000 RPM. Not as bad but still very noticeable around 5500 RPM. I won't go higher after my experience with the rev limiter. It really scared the $%&@ out of me. 3/4 throttle everything is nice and smooth with shifting between 5000-5500 in either automatic or manual mode. I don't think raising the rev limiter is the right answer if the transmission is not shifting. You are effectively increasing boost and have a higher potential for a lean condition. If the tranny doesn’t shift at this higher range too, I think your really asking for trouble. I also would never do any work on the ECU if you don’t have a local tuner; I think that is asking for trouble as well.
Whosdady, how does shifting in manual mode work for you?
Thanks,
BlownG
Add me too the list:
1. Whosdady
2. BlownG
I agree, let's try and keep things constructive...I did some WOT "testing" using manual shift and it seems to work "OK". I experienced a significant delay and lurch when shifting around 6000 RPM. Not as bad but still very noticeable around 5500 RPM. I won't go higher after my experience with the rev limiter. It really scared the $%&@ out of me. 3/4 throttle everything is nice and smooth with shifting between 5000-5500 in either automatic or manual mode. I don't think raising the rev limiter is the right answer if the transmission is not shifting. You are effectively increasing boost and have a higher potential for a lean condition. If the tranny doesn’t shift at this higher range too, I think your really asking for trouble. I also would never do any work on the ECU if you don’t have a local tuner; I think that is asking for trouble as well.
Whosdady, how does shifting in manual mode work for you?
Thanks,
BlownG
11-24-2003, 12:54 PM
#20
But there are also many who do not have this problem right?
Are the guys who are having the problem running TS ECU's?
My car's PE TT kit is being done by TS and thus I am not that afraid... Some people with stock 5ATs have hadt his problem in stock form, that has gotten a lot better with the ECU update. I have never hada problem with shifting with my stock ECU, thus I am not as afraid of going with my FI setup...
Gurgen
Are the guys who are having the problem running TS ECU's?
My car's PE TT kit is being done by TS and thus I am not that afraid... Some people with stock 5ATs have hadt his problem in stock form, that has gotten a lot better with the ECU update. I have never hada problem with shifting with my stock ECU, thus I am not as afraid of going with my FI setup...
Gurgen