My Engine and procharger issues
09-08-2003, 08:06 AM
#122
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First, I am getting very confused. I think you have to determine what your goal really it. We already know it wasn't tuned right, so that's why it blew. If all you want to do is get the car back running reliably with Procharger installed and have warranties on both the car and the kit, then you may want to re-think the plan. You can realiably run 7 psi of boost on that engine on high-octane pump gas if it is tuned properly. They run 10 psi of boost on 9.9:1 compression all day long on 93 octane with stock cast pistons in Mustang Cobras. They run 12 psi of boost on 10.0:1 compression Miatas all day long too on pump gas. To hear spending $3300 on internals to drop the compression almost 2 points for just 2 psi more boost is crazy.
For every point of compression you drop, you lose 10% of your power and low end response. 2 psi of boost won't even compensate for the power lossed from the lower compression. They car will feel likes its draggin down low until the boost builds. Please take a read at Corky Bell's book on Turbocharging. He makes a lot of comments as to how a lot of people make the mistake of killing the compression and losing the response for negligable gains. Before dropping down to this kind of compression, I would be looking for at least 15 psi of boost. If you aren't looking for that, you are wasting a lot of money for nothing but disappointment. We don't know how much boost the D2 compressor can put out before hitting the surge line, but if it can't put out that much then the entire project is a waste anyways. The Greddy twin-turbo setup would be a better option. Keep in mind that even after you spend the money, if it isn't tuned properly and runs very lean then you could blow it again. Then those expensive internals will be useless. The tuning has to be right regardless of however it is put back together.
Keep in mind that these upgrades completely void the warranty on for both your powertrain and your SC kit. Grubbs Infiniti sells the SC kit and keeps the warranty on the car. As long as the failure is not caused by the SC install(unlike your case), the entire car is still covered. The SC kit comes with a 1-yr warranty and can be extended to 3 years for just $50. But, if you touch the pulley then that is gone. My advice is to think about this carefully before you spend a dime.
For every point of compression you drop, you lose 10% of your power and low end response. 2 psi of boost won't even compensate for the power lossed from the lower compression. They car will feel likes its draggin down low until the boost builds. Please take a read at Corky Bell's book on Turbocharging. He makes a lot of comments as to how a lot of people make the mistake of killing the compression and losing the response for negligable gains. Before dropping down to this kind of compression, I would be looking for at least 15 psi of boost. If you aren't looking for that, you are wasting a lot of money for nothing but disappointment. We don't know how much boost the D2 compressor can put out before hitting the surge line, but if it can't put out that much then the entire project is a waste anyways. The Greddy twin-turbo setup would be a better option. Keep in mind that even after you spend the money, if it isn't tuned properly and runs very lean then you could blow it again. Then those expensive internals will be useless. The tuning has to be right regardless of however it is put back together.
Keep in mind that these upgrades completely void the warranty on for both your powertrain and your SC kit. Grubbs Infiniti sells the SC kit and keeps the warranty on the car. As long as the failure is not caused by the SC install(unlike your case), the entire car is still covered. The SC kit comes with a 1-yr warranty and can be extended to 3 years for just $50. But, if you touch the pulley then that is gone. My advice is to think about this carefully before you spend a dime.
Last edited by Loren04G35; 09-08-2003 at 08:51 AM.
09-08-2003, 08:39 AM
#123
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Originally posted by Loren04G35
First, I am getting very confused. I think you have to determine what your goal really it. We already know it wasn't tuned right, so that's why it blew. If all you want to do is get the car back running reliably with Procharger installed and have warranties on both the car and the kit, then you may want to re-think the plan. You can realiably run 7 psi of boost on that engine on high-octane pump gas if it is tuned properly. They run 10 psi of boost on 9.9:1 compression all day long on 93 octane with stock cast pistons. They run 12 psi of boost on 10.0:1 compression Miatas all day long too on pump gas. To hear spending $3300 on internals to drop the compression almost 2 points for just 2 psi more boost is crazy.
For every point of compression you drop, you lose 10% of your power and low end response. 2 psi of boost won't even compensate for the power lossed from the lower compression. They car will feel likes its draggin down low until the boost builds. Please take a read at Corky Bell's book on Turbocharging. He makes a lot of comments as to how a lot of people make the mistake of killing the compression and losing the response for negligable gains. Before dropping down to this kind of compression, I would be looking for at least 15 psi of boost. If you aren't looking for that, you are wasting a lot of money for nothing but disappointment. We don't know how much boost the D2 compressor can put out before hitting the surge line, but if it can't put out that much then the entire project is a waste anyways. The Greddy twin-turbo setup would be a better option. Keep in mind that even after you spend the money, if it isn't tuned properly and runs very lean then you could blow it again. Then those expensive internals will be useless. The tuning has to be right regardless of however it is put back together.
Keep in mind that these upgrades completely void the warranty on for both your powertrain and your SC kit. Grubbs Infiniti sells the SC kit and keeps the warranty on the car. As long as the failure is not caused by the SC install(unlike your case), the entire car is still covered. The SC kit comes with a 1-yr warranty and can be extended to 3 years for just $50. But, if you touch the pulley then that is gone. My advice is to think about this carefully before you spend a dime.
First, I am getting very confused. I think you have to determine what your goal really it. We already know it wasn't tuned right, so that's why it blew. If all you want to do is get the car back running reliably with Procharger installed and have warranties on both the car and the kit, then you may want to re-think the plan. You can realiably run 7 psi of boost on that engine on high-octane pump gas if it is tuned properly. They run 10 psi of boost on 9.9:1 compression all day long on 93 octane with stock cast pistons. They run 12 psi of boost on 10.0:1 compression Miatas all day long too on pump gas. To hear spending $3300 on internals to drop the compression almost 2 points for just 2 psi more boost is crazy.
For every point of compression you drop, you lose 10% of your power and low end response. 2 psi of boost won't even compensate for the power lossed from the lower compression. They car will feel likes its draggin down low until the boost builds. Please take a read at Corky Bell's book on Turbocharging. He makes a lot of comments as to how a lot of people make the mistake of killing the compression and losing the response for negligable gains. Before dropping down to this kind of compression, I would be looking for at least 15 psi of boost. If you aren't looking for that, you are wasting a lot of money for nothing but disappointment. We don't know how much boost the D2 compressor can put out before hitting the surge line, but if it can't put out that much then the entire project is a waste anyways. The Greddy twin-turbo setup would be a better option. Keep in mind that even after you spend the money, if it isn't tuned properly and runs very lean then you could blow it again. Then those expensive internals will be useless. The tuning has to be right regardless of however it is put back together.
Keep in mind that these upgrades completely void the warranty on for both your powertrain and your SC kit. Grubbs Infiniti sells the SC kit and keeps the warranty on the car. As long as the failure is not caused by the SC install(unlike your case), the entire car is still covered. The SC kit comes with a 1-yr warranty and can be extended to 3 years for just $50. But, if you touch the pulley then that is gone. My advice is to think about this carefully before you spend a dime.
Very well said! That's why I think (unless otherwise which he hasn't said) running 8.5:1 is foolish unless you plan on running at least 15PSI. You will regret it if you only run 7-9psi. With the low compression you can safely run 25psi. EASILY! I had 9.5:1 on my Honda motor running 25PSI no problems... Be smart about it and think it over before screwing your setup, know what you want first...
09-08-2003, 08:50 AM
#124
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Rods and Pistons
Regardless of a compression drop or not , personally
adding quality forged rods and pistons is the most prudent actions. Replaceing with factory comps should only be a last resort if you can't spare the dime. The factory parts though adequate for NA applications, are far inferior to good forged parts. Remember this is a production street vehicle ,and Nissan like any other factory manufacturer is driven more by marketing than performance.
adding quality forged rods and pistons is the most prudent actions. Replaceing with factory comps should only be a last resort if you can't spare the dime. The factory parts though adequate for NA applications, are far inferior to good forged parts. Remember this is a production street vehicle ,and Nissan like any other factory manufacturer is driven more by marketing than performance.
09-08-2003, 08:56 AM
#125
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I think the key thing to remember in all of this discussion as many others have stated is this.
You can put the strongest pistons and rods in the world in your engine, but there none, that I've ever heard of, that can withstand the beating of detonation. Proper tuning is the key
You can put the strongest pistons and rods in the world in your engine, but there none, that I've ever heard of, that can withstand the beating of detonation. Proper tuning is the key
09-08-2003, 09:38 AM
#127
My goals? Trust me, I had a long time to think about this, and I'm not just going to jump into something without knowing the facts or talking to people asking their opinion, hence this thread. But it's the same as everyone else's, to run safely and have the minimal amount of problems and the largest safety net. Of course it's all about tuning, I agree with you. But wouldn't it be nice to have a little bit of assurance to know that if I do ever want to up the boost, I can? Well, I figured OK, the engine has to come out and has to be taken apart, here's my chance to give myself the assurance and add the parts that we know will help me out. Sure, it's alot of money, but so is an engine. Do I want this to happen again? No. Of course, no matter what we do to our engines, if the tuning is ****ed, then we can kiss it good bye, but at least this will give more room for error, because no one is perfect, as we could see. Take the best tuners, they screw up too as we know. Do I plan on running at least 15 pounds? Well honestly, hell yeah. Why not? As long as I know these parts are now in my car, and my tuning is up to par, sure why not go for it.
Anyway, I'm sure something else will blow up eventually, it's just my luck
I'm going to sit down and talk to the tuners now, not waiting for their calls, we have to come to a decision today. I do appreciate everyone's opinions and thoughts on this, and do take them into consideration, so I will run everything that was said here by a few people that I trust the most, that won't BS me, because they do this stuff for a living and I'll get the pros and cons and weigh out my options and then spend money. We'll see.
Bill
Anyway, I'm sure something else will blow up eventually, it's just my luck
I'm going to sit down and talk to the tuners now, not waiting for their calls, we have to come to a decision today. I do appreciate everyone's opinions and thoughts on this, and do take them into consideration, so I will run everything that was said here by a few people that I trust the most, that won't BS me, because they do this stuff for a living and I'll get the pros and cons and weigh out my options and then spend money. We'll see.Bill
09-08-2003, 09:46 AM
#128
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tuning
Agreed, but text YELLING isn't necessary. Even when tuned correectly , componets can fail. For exampl an FMU based sytem is very vulnerable to single component fialures since they exist , "piggy-backed" outside of the ECU's OBD2 diagnostic system. So, forged bottem end components and "detonation" visiblity via an aux Knock detection system is good insurance.
If a component failure in the FMU or other sub-system occurs under heavy boost , the forged componets will by time to shut the operation down. The factory pistons will burn thru much faster than a quality forged component.
The point of may post was , that once you've got the bottom end opened up it is prudent to upgrade the "weak-link" components if he can afford it.
However; I personally wouldn't upgrade the CAMs unless when the piston fialed it sprayed metal into oil system and damaged the CAM bearings. CAMs can always be changed out without effecting short block later.
If a component failure in the FMU or other sub-system occurs under heavy boost , the forged componets will by time to shut the operation down. The factory pistons will burn thru much faster than a quality forged component.
The point of may post was , that once you've got the bottom end opened up it is prudent to upgrade the "weak-link" components if he can afford it.
However; I personally wouldn't upgrade the CAMs unless when the piston fialed it sprayed metal into oil system and damaged the CAM bearings. CAMs can always be changed out without effecting short block later.
09-08-2003, 10:41 AM
#129
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Ravaz,
I tend to agree with Loren04G35. It sounds like you definitely plan on running big boost (15psi or more IMO is big boost, and comparable to what max boost would be from a small displacement factory turbocharged car WRX, EVO, etc.) You mention, 'what's another $5 grand...if that's the case, I'd probably be leaning heavily towards some sort of twin turbo kit. As others have pointed out, you're not really sure what the procharger is or will be capable of. If you piece together some sort of custom turbo kit, or build off of one of the ones about to be released, it seems like you'll have a lot more headroom for power. All you have to do is make sure you turbos that will flow adequately, and the electronics to make it all work. There are plenty of shops out there that can do this...but as you know, you just have to be careful to choose the right one.
As for recouping some of your losses, you can still probably sell your procharger for $3500. You should see if you can get in with one of the companies looking for TT test mules at this time. A lot of times, companies are looking for cars to use as development mules, and you could save a ton of money. Also, if you are going to drop your compression and go big boost, the car is going to get a lot of attention all over the web, etc. You could probably find some sort of sponsorship deal.
I guess my point is, if your Procharger still works as new, you can get $3500-4000 back from selling it. Add that to your $3k you plan to spend on internal mods. That's $6-7k. If you are already willing to part with another $5k on top of that, you're talking at least $10k you have to build your engine. That should be enough for a more than competent shop to put something together for you to achieve your goals. They'll get some good press out of it when you start laying down some wicked numbers, and you'll have a smokin fast ride.
I have a feeling that if you take your time, and plan properly, you're still going to be happy in the end. If you rush this thing, and get something without enough headroom for power, you're going to be bummed for spending so much money.
When things go wrong and you feel sick to your stomach, like you're getting kicked around, etc., just take a deep breath and keep things in perspective...it's still just some cash and a F'n car in the end...nothing more. Good luck!
I tend to agree with Loren04G35. It sounds like you definitely plan on running big boost (15psi or more IMO is big boost, and comparable to what max boost would be from a small displacement factory turbocharged car WRX, EVO, etc.) You mention, 'what's another $5 grand...if that's the case, I'd probably be leaning heavily towards some sort of twin turbo kit. As others have pointed out, you're not really sure what the procharger is or will be capable of. If you piece together some sort of custom turbo kit, or build off of one of the ones about to be released, it seems like you'll have a lot more headroom for power. All you have to do is make sure you turbos that will flow adequately, and the electronics to make it all work. There are plenty of shops out there that can do this...but as you know, you just have to be careful to choose the right one.
As for recouping some of your losses, you can still probably sell your procharger for $3500. You should see if you can get in with one of the companies looking for TT test mules at this time. A lot of times, companies are looking for cars to use as development mules, and you could save a ton of money. Also, if you are going to drop your compression and go big boost, the car is going to get a lot of attention all over the web, etc. You could probably find some sort of sponsorship deal.
I guess my point is, if your Procharger still works as new, you can get $3500-4000 back from selling it. Add that to your $3k you plan to spend on internal mods. That's $6-7k. If you are already willing to part with another $5k on top of that, you're talking at least $10k you have to build your engine. That should be enough for a more than competent shop to put something together for you to achieve your goals. They'll get some good press out of it when you start laying down some wicked numbers, and you'll have a smokin fast ride.
I have a feeling that if you take your time, and plan properly, you're still going to be happy in the end. If you rush this thing, and get something without enough headroom for power, you're going to be bummed for spending so much money.
When things go wrong and you feel sick to your stomach, like you're getting kicked around, etc., just take a deep breath and keep things in perspective...it's still just some cash and a F'n car in the end...nothing more. Good luck!
09-08-2003, 11:47 AM
#130
I know this was said but...
Even with a built motor, an untuned (or badly tuned) motor stands no chance against detonation.
I hear that the Z's are running 90-95% duty cycle on some ecu's? ATI only gives a fuel pump and controller to add more fuel. So cramming another 30-40psi of fuel pressure into an injector that is screaming for its life, can only be trouble. And it blew on cyl. #6? Which one is that exactly, because i know the front two are the ones that run richer, so that would be interesting (im assuming #6 is one of the rears).
I have been following this thread a lil because Ravaz's installer is finishing up my car today/tommorow with a procharger. I saw them pulling his car out the day i dropped mine off. So i would like to know what happened. But as far as i have read/heard, nobody knows the cause of this yet because the car hasnt made it back to the installer.
A locked injector is not out of the question.
Even with a built motor, an untuned (or badly tuned) motor stands no chance against detonation.
I hear that the Z's are running 90-95% duty cycle on some ecu's? ATI only gives a fuel pump and controller to add more fuel. So cramming another 30-40psi of fuel pressure into an injector that is screaming for its life, can only be trouble. And it blew on cyl. #6? Which one is that exactly, because i know the front two are the ones that run richer, so that would be interesting (im assuming #6 is one of the rears).
I have been following this thread a lil because Ravaz's installer is finishing up my car today/tommorow with a procharger. I saw them pulling his car out the day i dropped mine off. So i would like to know what happened. But as far as i have read/heard, nobody knows the cause of this yet because the car hasnt made it back to the installer.
A locked injector is not out of the question.
09-08-2003, 11:54 AM
#131
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Max blew the rings on 3 and 5 so what does that mean? If the injectors max out causing a momentary lean condition the rings are the 1st to go? ATI needs to include bigger injectors? What does this info mean? 
09-08-2003, 12:09 PM
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Yes cylinder #6 is one of the rear ones, but the normal rules of air distribution within the intake manifold do not apply to FI engines.
No, a blocked injector is not out of the question and that is why before you install a system such as this, one of the first things you should do is put a new high flow fuel filter.
If you get bigger injectors then you're talking about ECU reprogramming, which is way out of the league of ATI. If you're going to do that then the FMU would be unecessary.
No, a blocked injector is not out of the question and that is why before you install a system such as this, one of the first things you should do is put a new high flow fuel filter.
If you get bigger injectors then you're talking about ECU reprogramming, which is way out of the league of ATI. If you're going to do that then the FMU would be unecessary.
Last edited by jesseenglish; 09-08-2003 at 12:24 PM.
09-08-2003, 12:12 PM
#133
My cousin thinks it' the injectors that started/caused this problem. I will be upgrading those for sure. Cyl 6 is on the drivers side rear. I would love to bring them the car but it's a pain in the *** for me to get the car up to them, not sure how I'm going to pull this one off, I'm going to have to rent a truck and a u-haul trailer. It's going to cost me about 175$ just to bring it up to them, plus over 400$ in pay for the day I'll have to be taking off from work. Lets be for real. Say the installer screwed up, do you think I/we will ever hear that as being the reason? Hell no. Fingers will be pointed left and right and never to the installer, you can bet on that.
09-08-2003, 12:18 PM
#134
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I really wanted a ATI procharger when they came out. Now that I have heard 2 problems with them and the companies response to the problems I say no friggin way. ATI should be here helping!! Talking to the affected customers and taking care of biz!! I feel bad for you and max for getting screwed by ATI!! To all other early adopters beware this company is truly all about the money!!
09-08-2003, 12:29 PM
#135
I don't know much about ATI the company, but I can't point my finger at them just yet. I've spoke to a few people so far in this industry, and they think there is a design flaw in their kit. Unless we find out that one of their parts was faulty, I can't really point my finger at them, not yet. I do wish they would help us out with some advice or their opinion on this. I do agree with you, it is all about the money.
09-08-2003, 12:35 PM
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Jspec350z, prove it is ATI's fault. None of the equipment that ATI provided failed, did it?
The problem is that when you start giving people the capability to increase their horsepower the proverbial excrement hits the fan.
How did ATI respond badly? Everytime, I've called tech support, they've been prompt and knowledgeable. How is it ATI's fault that someone screwed up their engine because of a bad install or bad tuning. The liability for that failure lies with the people who did the install and tuning, not the company who produced the hardware.
That would be like saying, I'm going to sue Nitto tires because my tire installer broke one of my wheel studs.
Yes it sucks, but take the blame out on the proper people.
The problem is that when you start giving people the capability to increase their horsepower the proverbial excrement hits the fan.
How did ATI respond badly? Everytime, I've called tech support, they've been prompt and knowledgeable. How is it ATI's fault that someone screwed up their engine because of a bad install or bad tuning. The liability for that failure lies with the people who did the install and tuning, not the company who produced the hardware.
That would be like saying, I'm going to sue Nitto tires because my tire installer broke one of my wheel studs.
Yes it sucks, but take the blame out on the proper people.
09-08-2003, 12:48 PM
#137
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I don't know of the conversations with the installer but it seems they are not doing much here to help out, they should be arranging to bring the car back to them.
The engine failed within 300 miles not in a year or 12000 miles.
I think that lesson learned here and with Max is that you need to pick your installer very carefully, go for a bigger guy that can take an expensive hit if they screw up or they have some sort of insurance like malpractice for doctors.
Picking an installer is definetly not the time to get cheap.
It's funny how as you read the thread you might see a Procharger banner at the top? Ironic.
The engine failed within 300 miles not in a year or 12000 miles.
I think that lesson learned here and with Max is that you need to pick your installer very carefully, go for a bigger guy that can take an expensive hit if they screw up or they have some sort of insurance like malpractice for doctors.
Picking an installer is definetly not the time to get cheap.
It's funny how as you read the thread you might see a Procharger banner at the top? Ironic.
09-08-2003, 01:05 PM
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Before you guys go any further with blame, I have a simple question that can show where to look. When the kit was installed, was the fuel tuned on a dyno with a wideband? I do mean a wideband, not just eyeing EGTs with one of those terribly inaccurate A/F gauges. If this wasn't done, then the installer is 100% responsible unless the condition of the install was that they were not to tune it. If this was done, then if it was the failure of a fuel component, ATI is responsible. If it was tuned on a dyno with a wideband, ask to see the dyno sheets with the A/F maps on them.
In case everyone doesn't know this; the ATI, Stillen and Greddy kits all go well beyond the capabilities of the stock fuel injectors. That is why they ramp up fuel pressure. Saying that the injectors are to small is not a cause for the problem since the kit already includes a work around for the issue. The injectors can't spray anymore fuel because the maximum pulse width was reached and the fuel opening only flows so much fuel. To have the injector spray more fuel, the fuel pressure increases to force more fuel into the engine from the same duty cycle. The other alternative would be bigger injectors and an ECU to run them. This of course would add a significant cost to the kit($1200-1600). If there was a faulty component, I would expect it to be on the electical side. I have never seen a mechanical FMU fail to cause a car to go lean. It is simply mechanical device that just closes off a valve by pressure. I have heard of them sticking and leaving the mixture rich, but never on the lean side. Electrical components could easily fail like the fuel pump.
Ravaz, if it were me then I would make them rebuild the engine back to stock specs on their nickel. I would want the car driving the way it was originally intended to run. If you really want to look at running a lot more power(boost), then now is the time to upgrade the internals. Regardless, I strongly recommend that you invest in a real wideband so you want have to take anymore chances. I have an FJO and I can't recommend it enough to people. It is an invaluable tool for tuning with an AFR.
I hope everything works out for the best,
Loren
In case everyone doesn't know this; the ATI, Stillen and Greddy kits all go well beyond the capabilities of the stock fuel injectors. That is why they ramp up fuel pressure. Saying that the injectors are to small is not a cause for the problem since the kit already includes a work around for the issue. The injectors can't spray anymore fuel because the maximum pulse width was reached and the fuel opening only flows so much fuel. To have the injector spray more fuel, the fuel pressure increases to force more fuel into the engine from the same duty cycle. The other alternative would be bigger injectors and an ECU to run them. This of course would add a significant cost to the kit($1200-1600). If there was a faulty component, I would expect it to be on the electical side. I have never seen a mechanical FMU fail to cause a car to go lean. It is simply mechanical device that just closes off a valve by pressure. I have heard of them sticking and leaving the mixture rich, but never on the lean side. Electrical components could easily fail like the fuel pump.
Ravaz, if it were me then I would make them rebuild the engine back to stock specs on their nickel. I would want the car driving the way it was originally intended to run. If you really want to look at running a lot more power(boost), then now is the time to upgrade the internals. Regardless, I strongly recommend that you invest in a real wideband so you want have to take anymore chances. I have an FJO and I can't recommend it enough to people. It is an invaluable tool for tuning with an AFR.
I hope everything works out for the best,
Loren
09-08-2003, 01:07 PM
#139
Funny thing is, they are a big installer, very well known, good reputation, and I didn't go cheap, I went broke! and got my **** kicked in by my girl for spending the extra money for thinking I would get assurance with them! I still don't know what the outcome will be with this whole thing with them, I put a call in at about 1:30 PM, still waiting for a call back. They are bad about calling back within a reasonable period of time, it's usually by 7:45 PM. I am waiting to speak to the service manager to push for a rough price/time period for the labor and work something out with that. I don't want to say much so I won't.
I still don't know what the outcome will be with this whole thing with them, I put a call in at about 1:30 PM, still waiting for a call back. They are bad about calling back within a reasonable period of time, it's usually by 7:45 PM. I am waiting to speak to the service manager to push for a rough price/time period for the labor and work something out with that. I don't want to say much so I won't.
09-08-2003, 01:14 PM
#140
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Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: West Bloomfield, MI
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Installer's should be backed up by the company that produces the kit. I am not directly blaming ATI. I am just say they have not posted on the forums helping Max or Ravaz. I know what you are saying jesseenglish but I think ATI should be working on helping not just casting blame. It sounds like that is what they are doing. This is an outsiders oponion so I may be wrong. Max and McDan ripped Zex apart in another thread but I have found there tech support to be top notch. So I guess I could be wrong. Well whatever I would just love to hear ATI's side of this story.