jesseenglish

Well it could still be a failure of the install even if it was tuned on a wideband dyno. Boost sense line getting crimped, fuel lines getting crimped, bypass valve stuck closed, electrical and hose connections working themselves loose because they weren't tight enough. There are many things that could've gone wrong with the install that were overlooked and cause these problems. That won't actually manifest themselves until after the car is driven a while.

G3po

iTrader: (8)

Make sure any tuner you use puts a Wide Band O2 sensor via a
a "bung" welded into the exhaust "before" the Cats.
Before the collector is best , since it will be less effected by any leaks in the collector gasket. "Do not" use a tail-pipe WB probe for tuning, it is nearly worthless due to the delayed reaction effect of the CATS.

daking350

You have not called them with a blown engine have you???

jesseenglish

Nope, because my install and tuning was done right. The only person who has said, besides MaxHax, that their customer service sucks is Jspec350z who doesn't even have a procharger. He said that ATI was placing blame and they haven't responded to anyones problems. Which I know for a fact is bull because I have talked with the ATI guys about these engine failures. They will have a response in due time.

Yes I defend ATI, because I've yet to find any major flaws with the procharger system. I have looked this kit over with a fine tooth comb, did the install myself and know from first hand knowledge that it is a quality product. I have talked to Aeromotive (the maker of the FMU) and I believe in their product also. So until someone points out a design flaw other than conjectures and suppositions, I will continue to defend the equipment.

ravaz

iTrader: (1)

I spoke with my installer just now. I feel a little bit better. Labor should only be about 15 hours. How much of that do I have to pay? I don't know. I would love to not pay a thing, but we all know that isn't a reality. He is going to look into some Je pistons for me tomorrow, and rods and get some prices for me. He doesn't recommmend cams, but others I have spoke to don't see an issue with them and think I can benefit with them. I don't know yet, we'll have to see and I'll have to think about it. I also asked them to contact ATI, and see if they can get a smaller pulley out of them, if not, maybe we can get one custom made. He thinks they should only have my car for a few weeks, 2 weeks or maybe 3 at most, I told them to keep it for a month, I'll even let them drive it home and around for a week to see if everything is right to them, if not it goes back to the shop and figure out what is the problem, they can pay for towing it back this time

Now I have to figure out how I'm going to bring it to them, my Trooper can't tow it, the hatch won't support that much weight, so I'll have to find a place that will rent a Pickup truck or a Expedition or something with a hitch on it. Lets hope I hear some good news tomorrow.

daking350

You are being way too cool with these guys who just Blew your engine..Everyone has told you that it was not tuned properly and seeing how they ARE an ATI authorized installer they should be responsible.There is no way you blew your engine in 300 miles as a fault of your own..If the install was done right you would not have any problems and have to spend thousands more on stuff you just dont need..Dont take this as a flame but you are being a sucker!

peptidbond

iTrader: (2)

I am not going to comment on the rest of this stuff, since I am still in the FI learning cycle, however I can comment on towing!

Go to UHaul and rent a truck ONE WAY. Then rent a dolly. See if the Z will fit without scraping. If not, get the full car dolly from UHaul. Take the girl out to dinner, then go home and do the nasty. Now, ask her to follow you in the tracker while you drive the truck. Drop the Z off. Drop the truck and dolly off. Give the girl flowers and drive home. This should be the cheapest depending on mileage. I did this once between Chicago and Columbus, Ohio (380 miles) and it came to about $1 per mile. Not to mention, you are the one driving, not some other schmuk!

westpak

iTrader: (19)

I agree, I am a pretty easy going guy but this would have me fuming and they would have to pull from the ceiling.

I would demand that they tow the car back to their place and the only thing I would pay for is the extra cost of the parts you want if they are more expensive than the stock parts.

Unless you signed a waiver releasing them of any liabilty arising from the installation they are responsible or ATI, I would have someone's ***** and tightening my grip every day that passed.

ravaz

iTrader: (1)

.

daking350

Well I hope ATI stands behind their product and installation technicians..After all they are sponsors of this site now..HMMMM...MAX got BANNED, Then ATI became sponsors..interesting...Politics reaches far out into cyber space I guess.
Any way blame the shop that put it in and dont let ANYONE touch the car until they do so they cant relieve themselves of any responsability in your case.Its their boo boo let them fix it. there is now way that you blew your engine that fast without some sort of screw up during install..

ravaz

iTrader: (1)

I really can't say much, the installer comes on this board so I'd like to keep that between him and I, until everything is worked out and I am happy, I won't be posting what we decide on, later on I will without a doubt. I'm not normally this calm, especially if they were local, it would be a different story, much different. Only person that touched my car so far was just to run a compression/leak down test, per the installers request, which cost me nothing anyway. I will not get stepped on, I can assure everyone that. As long as I'm happy, that's what counts.

westpak

iTrader: (19)

I hear you, good luck, it is a tough road nobody wishes to be on.

rouxeny

I appreciate your efforts at keeping this a civil and productive discussion.

Hope things work out and keep us notified.

daking350

Try and find out EXACTLY what caused the problem so we can all learn what to look for. I was contemplating an ATI next year but.....

commasense

Ravaz,

It seems to me that it's the installer's responsibility to put the car back in working condition following the apparent failure of their installation, and that that shouldn't cost you a thing, even if they have to replace a damaged piston or other engine parts. That is, unless they can prove to you that what happened had nothing at all to do with their work. It wouldn't be out of place for them to offer to pay part of your towing costs to get the car back to them.

If I were you, I certainly wouldn't have them do any new work or install any new parts, since that muddies the waters about what you have to pay for and what was or wasn't wrong with what they originally did. And for the time being, you at least have reason to be skeptical about their competence. Let them prove they can fix the first job before you ask them to do more work. Once they make it right you can decide if you want them to do more, or if you want to find a shop closer to home.

N74DV

this thread is exactly the reason why I'm waiting til next year to go FI.

Too many new products out there none of which are road proven.

I'm curious to see EXACTLY what it was that caused this catastrophic failure.

daking350

Well it is safe to assume had he NOT put the procharger on he would not have blown a hole in his piston ,even under abusive driving conditions..the car just wont let it happen it would go into safe mode first.So if ATI sells the product as engineered and developed specifically for the Z then it should be SAFE..I am thinking some steps were left out during the installation which led to the failure due to an INCREDIBLY LEAN condition.

N4Spd

i think ATI should have built a fail-safe mode into their product,
especially since it can blow your engine.

right now, everyone with an ATI is driving around hoping nothing
will fail/change. Cross your fingers: fmu gets power, nothing
gets pinched, injectors working without hicups, wires don't get
worn through, etc... anything sound familiar so far?

the danger and price of this kit requires a fail-safe mode. It
could be as simple as dumping boost if a lean condition is
detected. it needs to be automatic, rather than the owner
"checking/listening" to their cars... most likely a couple of
seconds too late...

When my g35c kit finally arrives, I won't be driving it until a
fail-safe mode is installed... checkout 350zfrenzy for a simple
plan I posted.

good luck ravaz,
rob

ps. wish me luck...

jesseenglish

http://www.350zfrenzy.com/forum/show...&threadid=2224

phunk

iTrader: (21)

things like this are likely to happen until people put more R&D in this particular engine. i was about an inch away from buying the ATI kit then I decided to hold off for the greddy kit.

one thing i would have done if i purchased an ATI was rid of the fuel system it comes with ASAP. fuel pressure rising systems are somewhat cheesy and do not generally yield the cleanest fuel curve, especially during boost transition. if i had a procharger, i would probably install an emanage until i took it past its limits.

what would be great is if someone like JWT did a FI ECU for this car. Thats the ultimate way to do it. a standalone would be great but its an installation nightmare in these modern cars and it can take over a year before you get the car to run as clean as stock, if ever. Hopefully JWT will release a FI ECU for this car that will work to the max airflow reading capability of our MAF.

another thing to consider could be the intake manifold. the stock intake manifold/plenum doesnt APPEAR to be one that will flow air evenly, even tho I have not flow benched it or anything... so I cant say this for sure. but uneven airflow to the cylinders can cause huge problems, I have seen it with other cars and crappy stock intake manifolds. an EGT gauge doesnt really do you any good if every cylinder is running different. SOME hardcore racers put an EGT gauge on every cylinder.

also, since i do not own an ATI kit, I am not very familiar with the engine management piggy backs it includes. but ignition timing could be a huge factor in FI engine reliability. i dont recall 100% so i could be wrong, correct me if i am, but i dont think the ati kit has any type of timing retard. if not, this can be a huge problem, especially if the factory timing map does not extend past max airflow on a stock Z at peak effiency. if the ATI kit does not include anything like this, a good solution could be a MSD BTM. It will independatly retard timing per pound of boost via MAP readings, unrelated to airflow volume, so it will only do it under boost. The greddy emanage system also supports this, ideally with its optional MAP sensor.

one thing to watch for is EGTs that are too low. too much timing advance will cause lower EGTs. If you put your car on a dyno or do some type of wideband dataloging... assuming your air/fuel ratio is properly tuned, you can have a good idea of around where your EGTs should be. If they are super low, that is not something to brag about or something that should make you feel safer... it means you have too much timing advance and your about to damage your pistons. You cannot tune a car based on ONLY EGTs cause EGTs are effected by both timing and air/fuel. Without knowing that one or the other is where it should be, EGTs dont tell you anything.

Doing a full engine buildup is always a good idea if its well planned and executed. However you always need to remember... an improperly tuned engine will tear through a built motor just as easily as a stock motor. Your reliability related to HP will definatly increase, however poor tuning will break your super strong parts without much less difficulty than breaking the stock stuff. so basically all I am getting at with this is that if this guys engine blew up due to poor tuning, then if that issue isnt fixed immediatly after an engine buildup, it WILL fail again.

I am a shop owner, and I have a dyno, and I have to tune cars. One thing I will say is that getting a cars air/fuel tuning done is EASY. If you cannot get a mint A/F curve then you need to let someone else tune the car. Its the IGNITION TIMING that can be tricky to work out, no matter who you are. Ignition timing can be really tricky to work out, especially since the amount of timing piggy back options are not as massive as the fuel piggy backs. However a simple timing retard as per boost pressure is all you need in a lot of cases... such as the MSD BTM i mentioned before.

As for the installer of this fellows supercharger kit being liable to pay for his engine build... no way. 99% of shops have signs, waivers, and other means of getting the point across that they will never be responsible for what happens to your car no matter what. As a shop owner, I can say what I would do in this situation.

First step would be to figure out what happened of course. There are many things that could have caused this, so the first thing that needs to be done is to professionally point a finger. At a person or at a part. If the person or part that was at fault was related to the installer, then things get difficult. If the fault was not the installers, then of course the installer has no obligation to any sort of compensation. If it was the installers fault, if it was me for example... I would, even tho I make it clear to customers that I am not liable for anything, i would probably rebuild the engine to factory specs, such as stock pistons etc, out of my own pocket. However if the customer was going for a full buildup with custom parts and all that jazz, then I dont think I would contribute anything because the engine was not built up when it came in. I would probably just discount the labor if a full buildup was in effect. These are what I would expect of other shops as well.

-Charles
CJ Motorsports