How many motors blown due to Procharger?
11-18-2003, 02:53 PM
#23
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This is the one that really pisses me off. He was trying to be helpful, but was deceptive in the process. Pretending like he didn't know for sure. Yeah Brian, I'm sure you're just taking a stab in the dark here and don't have any inside info whatsoever 
Originally posted by hcracerx
The Vortech 350Z FMU setup (from what I understand) is very similar to the one Paxton has had great success with in their Viper system. Highly effective and zero problems. The only difference is that the Viper system uses 2 inline pumps...because its a 10 cylinder car with a returnless setup (so it requires specific flow rates that one pump can't provide maybe - I'm assuming) Plus, the install manual to the Viper system is available right now on the Paxton website with diagrams in the downloads section. Here is a link:
http://www.paxtonauto.com/downloads/
I figured that could help you guys out a little. It kinda cleared things up for me.
The Vortech 350Z FMU setup (from what I understand) is very similar to the one Paxton has had great success with in their Viper system. Highly effective and zero problems. The only difference is that the Viper system uses 2 inline pumps...because its a 10 cylinder car with a returnless setup (so it requires specific flow rates that one pump can't provide maybe - I'm assuming) Plus, the install manual to the Viper system is available right now on the Paxton website with diagrams in the downloads section. Here is a link:
http://www.paxtonauto.com/downloads/
I figured that could help you guys out a little. It kinda cleared things up for me.
11-18-2003, 02:58 PM
#24
As far as the "We are aware of 3 motor failures. Each case has had modifications or tuning that varied from our original product". Thats ********s. What on Ravaz's car was modifications or tuning differences? Dont say that it is all AAM's fault. They have done alot of Sc installs there. Dr.Bonz and mine were fine. Then I hear there is another Z that had a melted plug and loss of cylinder pressure on Sunday at the track. I think ATI needs to step up and accept responsiblity for these problems. I've never seen any bolt on SC have this many blown motors.
Several months later I contracted somebody else to do some tuning (since I wasn't happy before) on the same dyno, and there was a significant difference completed in a fraction of the time. My point is that AAM isn't what it's cracked up to be, and I will never take my car to be serviced there again...
11-18-2003, 02:58 PM
#25
Originally posted by jeffw
Do you think that was why your motor blew (lean condition from loss of fuel pressure)? Of course, it's still the Procharger's fault if that was the case.
--
jeff
Do you think that was why your motor blew (lean condition from loss of fuel pressure)? Of course, it's still the Procharger's fault if that was the case.
--
jeff
11-18-2003, 03:06 PM
#26
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Originally posted by John
And? Just because there have been a few successful installs doesn't mean that some haven't been tuned properly. I've had my car tuned by AAM several years ago by a certain someone himself. The results? Nothing impressive, and I was charged the 15-20 minute intervals of time he spent in teh office catching up on work between dyno runs. Several months later I contracted somebody else to do some tuning (since I wasn't happy before) on the same dyno, and there was a significant difference completed in a fraction of the time. My point is that AAM isn't what it's cracked up to be, and I will never take my car to be serviced there again...
And? Just because there have been a few successful installs doesn't mean that some haven't been tuned properly. I've had my car tuned by AAM several years ago by a certain someone himself. The results? Nothing impressive, and I was charged the 15-20 minute intervals of time he spent in teh office catching up on work between dyno runs.
Several months later I contracted somebody else to do some tuning (since I wasn't happy before) on the same dyno, and there was a significant difference completed in a fraction of the time. My point is that AAM isn't what it's cracked up to be, and I will never take my car to be serviced there again...
My question is this, if you bought new Michelin tires from TireRack and had them installed at Walmart and the wheel fell off because one of the lugnuts weren't tightened enough. Would you blame Michelin or TireRack???? No, you should blame Walmart. Same thing as ATI. There are a lot of people who point fingers and don't have any evidence to back them up.
11-18-2003, 03:11 PM
#27
My question is this, if you bought new Michelin tires from TireRack and had them installed at Walmart and the wheel fell off because one of the lugnuts weren't tightened enough. Would you blame Michelin or TireRack???? No, you should blame Walmart. Same thing as ATI. There are a lot of people who point fingers and don't have any evidence to back them up.
11-18-2003, 03:15 PM
#28
Originally posted by John
You're using exteme logic. Having Michelin tires installed doesn't require an extensive amount of tuning to determine their performance. There are FAR fewer variables involved. Now, I am not picking sides in this debate, I am only pointing out that the "famous tuner AAM" isn't all that it's cracked up to be. It's quite possible that they tuned the ATI properly and in fact it was a design flaw in the supercharger itself. That I do not know. What I do know is that I do not trust my car in the hands of their shop. The way I see it, it's like a shady looking character being around a murder scene. The shady person is taken into custody... is he/she guilty? Well, that's up to the jury to decide...
You're using exteme logic. Having Michelin tires installed doesn't require an extensive amount of tuning to determine their performance. There are FAR fewer variables involved. Now, I am not picking sides in this debate, I am only pointing out that the "famous tuner AAM" isn't all that it's cracked up to be. It's quite possible that they tuned the ATI properly and in fact it was a design flaw in the supercharger itself. That I do not know. What I do know is that I do not trust my car in the hands of their shop. The way I see it, it's like a shady looking character being around a murder scene. The shady person is taken into custody... is he/she guilty? Well, that's up to the jury to decide...
11-18-2003, 03:19 PM
#29
That I can't explain. I simply want to point out that AAM's **** doesn't smell sweeter than most like half these people would like to believe.
I can't speak for ATI, and personally, I have no desire to purchase their products. The Z requires a lot of R&D time, and if you ask me, the ATI SC was rushed on to the market.
I can't speak for ATI, and personally, I have no desire to purchase their products. The Z requires a lot of R&D time, and if you ask me, the ATI SC was rushed on to the market.
11-18-2003, 03:26 PM
#30
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Originally posted by John
You're using exteme logic. Having Michelin tires installed doesn't require an extensive amount of tuning to determine their performance. There are FAR fewer variables involved. Now, I am not picking sides in this debate, I am only pointing out that the "famous tuner AAM" isn't all that it's cracked up to be. It's quite possible that they tuned the ATI properly and in fact it was a design flaw in the supercharger itself. That I do not know. What I do know is that I do not trust my car in the hands of their shop. The way I see it, it's like a shady looking character being around a murder scene. The shady person is taken into custody... is he/she guilty? Well, that's up to the jury to decide...
You're using exteme logic. Having Michelin tires installed doesn't require an extensive amount of tuning to determine their performance. There are FAR fewer variables involved. Now, I am not picking sides in this debate, I am only pointing out that the "famous tuner AAM" isn't all that it's cracked up to be. It's quite possible that they tuned the ATI properly and in fact it was a design flaw in the supercharger itself. That I do not know. What I do know is that I do not trust my car in the hands of their shop. The way I see it, it's like a shady looking character being around a murder scene. The shady person is taken into custody... is he/she guilty? Well, that's up to the jury to decide...
Just seems kinda odd that they've succesfully blown up two out of the three 350Z's that have had engine failure.
11-18-2003, 03:34 PM
#31
Don't forget this is not just a bolt-on product. It requires tuning, now the success is contingent upon the tuner and his equipment.
Regardless, I hope the problem is resolved soon, as it's saddening to see so many enthusiasts having to sacrifice a motor, but unfortunately, that's part of the modifying game.
I personally would only stick with products that have been race-proven, such as the 350Evo products. The majority of the other products on the market haven't been tested in the extreme conditions that are needed to see if the products stand the test of time and performance. But then again, they won't be producing a FI product (since few little sanctioned racing uses FI in the US). Therefore, with FI at this early stage, everybody is going to be rolling the dice... good luck guys...
Regardless, I hope the problem is resolved soon, as it's saddening to see so many enthusiasts having to sacrifice a motor, but unfortunately, that's part of the modifying game.
I personally would only stick with products that have been race-proven, such as the 350Evo products. The majority of the other products on the market haven't been tested in the extreme conditions that are needed to see if the products stand the test of time and performance. But then again, they won't be producing a FI product (since few little sanctioned racing uses FI in the US). Therefore, with FI at this early stage, everybody is going to be rolling the dice... good luck guys...
Last edited by John; 11-18-2003 at 03:36 PM.
11-18-2003, 04:02 PM
#32
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The problem is that probably not all report it to ATI since they figure they are on their own since ATI will warranty the SC only, the installer will say they did it per instructions and Nissan will say tough ****.
The thing is that by them blaming the engine just speaks volumes to the fact that they did not do their homework and spend some more time in R&D, but rather put a kit together to take advantage of the desire for more power and cash in and the people installing them are the R&D.
It just seems that to have to be that careful just is not worth it, I think I will stay N/A and rather play with my new toy 300ZX TT and be at 400HP in a heartbeat.
The thing is that by them blaming the engine just speaks volumes to the fact that they did not do their homework and spend some more time in R&D, but rather put a kit together to take advantage of the desire for more power and cash in and the people installing them are the R&D.
It just seems that to have to be that careful just is not worth it, I think I will stay N/A and rather play with my new toy 300ZX TT and be at 400HP in a heartbeat.
300ZX TT 
11-18-2003, 04:09 PM
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Originally posted by westpak
It just seems that to have to be that careful just is not worth it, I think I will stay N/A and rather play with my new toy 300ZX TT and be at 400HP in a heartbeat.
It just seems that to have to be that careful just is not worth it, I think I will stay N/A and rather play with my new toy 300ZX TT and be at 400HP in a heartbeat.
11-18-2003, 04:44 PM
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interesting stuff! So ATI says that they are investigating the 3 known motors that have been blown up. Ravaz, have you heard anything from ATI? Or anyone else that's gone "caput!!!"
11-18-2003, 05:28 PM
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If you spent $5K+ on a ATI S/C and your engine blew. Who wouldn't call ATI? (I don't buy the horror stories) There have been over 100 kits sold to z owners and 3 have had problems. Two were done by the same tuner (who offers to rasie the rev limiter) The other blown engine was done by a tuner that lost a lawsuit after that engine blew. Sounds like poor tuning to me.
ATI has been up front with me. I am concerned about the numbers Jesse brought up earlier. Personally I am looking at the TS ecu flash, which will lower the numbers.
Anyway, as far as I am concerned I am very happpy with ATI and the kit they brought to the market. I have had no problems and have spoken with their techs on multiple occasions. As far as vortech goes, I would not buy their product soley based on their business practices.
ATI has been up front with me. I am concerned about the numbers Jesse brought up earlier. Personally I am looking at the TS ecu flash, which will lower the numbers.
Anyway, as far as I am concerned I am very happpy with ATI and the kit they brought to the market. I have had no problems and have spoken with their techs on multiple occasions. As far as vortech goes, I would not buy their product soley based on their business practices.
11-18-2003, 06:08 PM
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Seems like someone hit a nerve with ATI !
Funny, they ignored the many earlier posts from customers asking for help or addressing issues or aksing questions but immediately popped up on this one- this finally must be impacting sales. Hats off to hcracerx and some Nissan dealers for at least getting these guys heads out of the sand. Maybe they'll learn what customer service really means in this day and age.
Certified (what's that mean they own a wrench) installers, hah! ATI evidently designed(?) these systems for mom and pop to go to the post office, not enthusiasts. Just $.02 from an observer that's seen this same thing on forum after forum. FYI, I think a G35 has started to show this problem but it's unconfirmed as yet.
You can't hide a bad rep or poor service on the internet for long.
Funny, they ignored the many earlier posts from customers asking for help or addressing issues or aksing questions but immediately popped up on this one- this finally must be impacting sales. Hats off to hcracerx and some Nissan dealers for at least getting these guys heads out of the sand. Maybe they'll learn what customer service really means in this day and age.
Certified (what's that mean they own a wrench) installers, hah! ATI evidently designed(?) these systems for mom and pop to go to the post office, not enthusiasts. Just $.02 from an observer that's seen this same thing on forum after forum. FYI, I think a G35 has started to show this problem but it's unconfirmed as yet.
You can't hide a bad rep or poor service on the internet for long.
Last edited by jcv; 11-18-2003 at 06:27 PM.
11-18-2003, 06:11 PM
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How can people defend ATI when you can go to any domestic car forum and see that they have always had a bad rep?
Look at the facts, they either have a bad product, or have designed the product in such a way that it is too difficult to tune, even for an experienced installer.
I don't think ATI has proper safety engineering or testing built into their kit.
IMO, people thinking about buying a FI kit should thank these people brave (impatient) souls who blew up their motors unknowingly testing this kit for ATI. Now the rest of us know the level of risks associated with it, and have been given a wake up call to take our time and make sure we get a good, safe, and reliable FI kit.
You'd have to be a dumbass to buy an ATI at this point.
Look at the facts, they either have a bad product, or have designed the product in such a way that it is too difficult to tune, even for an experienced installer.
I don't think ATI has proper safety engineering or testing built into their kit.
IMO, people thinking about buying a FI kit should thank these people brave (impatient) souls who blew up their motors unknowingly testing this kit for ATI. Now the rest of us know the level of risks associated with it, and have been given a wake up call to take our time and make sure we get a good, safe, and reliable FI kit.
You'd have to be a dumbass to buy an ATI at this point.
