How many motors blown due to Procharger?
#142
Registered User
iTrader: (8)
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Nor Cal.
Posts: 1,635
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
TS tuning
To Keepupp:
Something to consder when getting your TS tune.
I assume that they would alter your timing map to re-tard some delta amount based upon RPM only (since the ECU has no >1bar MAP inputs). Probably between 1-2 degrees per "correlated PSI".
You may want to consider "not" having them do this, since :
a)you can add a J&S type unit in addtion to other ECU tune so you can then map timing retard based upon a real boost sensing MAP sensor, rather than the default "boost-agnostic" ECU method.
b)the external unit may allow you to run a less agressive retard profile , since it can rpovide a knockk input safety net. I assume that TS would not adjust timing based upon knock sensor inputs.
I could be wrong on this , but it doesn't seem like they would be going this far. At least you shoudl ask them as to there basic method.
c) an external Timing controll such as J&S can provide special switched inputs for additional de-timing when bad gas, IC overheated IC , NO2 etc are present.
I'm not trying to push the J&S unit, but I am certainly considering that type of approach.
IMO
Something to consder when getting your TS tune.
I assume that they would alter your timing map to re-tard some delta amount based upon RPM only (since the ECU has no >1bar MAP inputs). Probably between 1-2 degrees per "correlated PSI".
You may want to consider "not" having them do this, since :
a)you can add a J&S type unit in addtion to other ECU tune so you can then map timing retard based upon a real boost sensing MAP sensor, rather than the default "boost-agnostic" ECU method.
b)the external unit may allow you to run a less agressive retard profile , since it can rpovide a knockk input safety net. I assume that TS would not adjust timing based upon knock sensor inputs.
I could be wrong on this , but it doesn't seem like they would be going this far. At least you shoudl ask them as to there basic method.
c) an external Timing controll such as J&S can provide special switched inputs for additional de-timing when bad gas, IC overheated IC , NO2 etc are present.
I'm not trying to push the J&S unit, but I am certainly considering that type of approach.
IMO
#143
G3PO,
Very good suggestion. The fact that the TS ECU has no boost sensing capability is the main reason I've been objecting to it since they started advertising that you could use the TS ECU and nothing else.
I'll say this for the 9,345,829th time. The ECU is blind without a MAP sensor.
Very good suggestion. The fact that the TS ECU has no boost sensing capability is the main reason I've been objecting to it since they started advertising that you could use the TS ECU and nothing else.
I'll say this for the 9,345,829th time. The ECU is blind without a MAP sensor.
#144
Originally posted by daking350
Well when you cut fuel to the cylinder while still forcing air into it it causes a LEAN condition which is not good...
Well when you cut fuel to the cylinder while still forcing air into it it causes a LEAN condition which is not good...
I'd argue that in our Z it doesn't cut off all together.. it just pulls the throttle input back to what it knows is below the limit.. you'll notice on our car the car just stops accellerating.. it doesn't die or drop RPMs dramatically. Our rev limiter is very tame IMO.
#145
JIC Magic 350Z
I am from JIC and I am tuning my drift 350Z last 10 month.
I want to say stop blaming and cry. ATI make great modify bolt on kit for 350Z.Any body modify engine even bolt on kit car owners responsibility. If you don't want to any risk DO NOT MODIFY ENGINE. If you want to more hose power study about your engine. I am form Japan. I could get much information form Japanese Nissan and Japanese Nismo before play with 350Z engine. Also I have long experience for modify with turbo. you must know what you can do it with this engine and what do have to take care of this engine otherwise you might will make your engine damage. People who play race (include drift) if engine got damage this is you responsibility. I have to tell every body and topics 2. Drifting is not friendly for engine as everybody knows 350z engine is high compression. If owner made mistake for installation (have to install professional do not install by your self if you don't have experience) and no maintenance you will have big problem. I am talking about any modify and any car. Topics 2 have to tell you why my 350Z using rev limit. Because car doesn’t have enough hose power. ATI kit will make extra 100hp~140hp. but you have to remember your are using stock engine. Not race engine. Using rev limit is very risky. We are under stand about this risk for race and drift. If you can not under stand DO NOT RACE and DO NOT DRIFT. You have to remember drift will spend lot of money. For enjoy with ATI supercharger kit I can give some advice to every body. Trust me I play with 350Z and ATI almost 1 year and over 6000mile for just drift race and always full throttle.
1 install with professional race shop who has chassis dyno and who has experience (race shop is better.)
2 I am using HORIBA UEGO sensor for A/F. Bocsh wide band sener performance is too slow. If is better if tuner has this machine. Check A/F 5 or 6 gear high speed rpm.
3 Change big race radiator for cooling must keep engine water temp always less than 105C. Stock meter is not accurate. I have prototype koyo aluminum radiator. And install water temp electronic meter. Do not use auto meter. Not accrete.
4 ADD big oil cooler. This is biggest problem. If you do not take care of oil temp you engine will blow. Topics 2 your engine blow form not only A/F. you have remember if engine is over heat you will have detonation and blow... need electronic oil temp meter for under stand temperature important...
5 ATI kit is for street drive. For any kind of race change inter cooler and remove difference location. Right now we are making new intercooler system.
6 Must check boost presser. Max boot is 7psi when rpm is 6500rpm.need install boost meter but do not use chip manual type use electronic type more accrete.
7 DO not change rev limit. 350Z VQ engine main bearing is not strong. Max rpm you can use 6600rpm. Next year Nissan will start built VQ type engine. I spoke with JP Nissan engineer about engine before.
8 check fuel pressure on the chassis dyno. Check high rpm, high boost.
Hope everybody will enjoy ATI kit. My 350Z next year we will make 600Hp update engine and will play Pro Drift race. We will use DTA fuel management system.
Jon
JIC USA
I want to say stop blaming and cry. ATI make great modify bolt on kit for 350Z.Any body modify engine even bolt on kit car owners responsibility. If you don't want to any risk DO NOT MODIFY ENGINE. If you want to more hose power study about your engine. I am form Japan. I could get much information form Japanese Nissan and Japanese Nismo before play with 350Z engine. Also I have long experience for modify with turbo. you must know what you can do it with this engine and what do have to take care of this engine otherwise you might will make your engine damage. People who play race (include drift) if engine got damage this is you responsibility. I have to tell every body and topics 2. Drifting is not friendly for engine as everybody knows 350z engine is high compression. If owner made mistake for installation (have to install professional do not install by your self if you don't have experience) and no maintenance you will have big problem. I am talking about any modify and any car. Topics 2 have to tell you why my 350Z using rev limit. Because car doesn’t have enough hose power. ATI kit will make extra 100hp~140hp. but you have to remember your are using stock engine. Not race engine. Using rev limit is very risky. We are under stand about this risk for race and drift. If you can not under stand DO NOT RACE and DO NOT DRIFT. You have to remember drift will spend lot of money. For enjoy with ATI supercharger kit I can give some advice to every body. Trust me I play with 350Z and ATI almost 1 year and over 6000mile for just drift race and always full throttle.
1 install with professional race shop who has chassis dyno and who has experience (race shop is better.)
2 I am using HORIBA UEGO sensor for A/F. Bocsh wide band sener performance is too slow. If is better if tuner has this machine. Check A/F 5 or 6 gear high speed rpm.
3 Change big race radiator for cooling must keep engine water temp always less than 105C. Stock meter is not accurate. I have prototype koyo aluminum radiator. And install water temp electronic meter. Do not use auto meter. Not accrete.
4 ADD big oil cooler. This is biggest problem. If you do not take care of oil temp you engine will blow. Topics 2 your engine blow form not only A/F. you have remember if engine is over heat you will have detonation and blow... need electronic oil temp meter for under stand temperature important...
5 ATI kit is for street drive. For any kind of race change inter cooler and remove difference location. Right now we are making new intercooler system.
6 Must check boost presser. Max boot is 7psi when rpm is 6500rpm.need install boost meter but do not use chip manual type use electronic type more accrete.
7 DO not change rev limit. 350Z VQ engine main bearing is not strong. Max rpm you can use 6600rpm. Next year Nissan will start built VQ type engine. I spoke with JP Nissan engineer about engine before.
8 check fuel pressure on the chassis dyno. Check high rpm, high boost.
Hope everybody will enjoy ATI kit. My 350Z next year we will make 600Hp update engine and will play Pro Drift race. We will use DTA fuel management system.
Jon
JIC USA
#149
Registered User
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: NOR - CAL
Posts: 4,686
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If the idea from hammerhead and Jon is to inspire consumer confidence to have people rush out and go buy FI it's failing IMHO. Isn't that the goal , sell the kits? So tell everyone how risky it is and down talk them? That will sell more kits? Quite bizzarre way of marketing going on here for this product man. FI is great and the market is ripe with competition so push the product not steeer people away from it. Is it me? Geez...
#150
Yeah, i'm not understanding that tactic myself.....i mean it's not any secret that JIC and ATI are affiliated.......i guess the PR guy was off the day that statement was written
#151
Registered User
iTrader: (6)
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: St. Louis, MO
Posts: 663
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Can't we all just get along?
I really feel like Jon was just trying to help us out. I for one will never drift my car but I have and will continue running the 1/4. Initially it was mentioned that ATI didn't give enough ideas on how to run the kit safely. Now they/JIC are helping us with a few ideas and we are being less than appreciative.
For those of you that bought the kit (like me). I think the more friendly we are, the more helpful they will be. The more we rip on them the less likely they will be to come back and post more ideas.
And no the JIC never blew an engine with the ATI kit installed, unlike the greddy kit did on multiple occasions.
I really feel like Jon was just trying to help us out. I for one will never drift my car but I have and will continue running the 1/4. Initially it was mentioned that ATI didn't give enough ideas on how to run the kit safely. Now they/JIC are helping us with a few ideas and we are being less than appreciative.
For those of you that bought the kit (like me). I think the more friendly we are, the more helpful they will be. The more we rip on them the less likely they will be to come back and post more ideas.
And no the JIC never blew an engine with the ATI kit installed, unlike the greddy kit did on multiple occasions.
#152
Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: houston, texas
Posts: 50
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Ah but Greddy didn't sell the kit before its time. Evidently, the ATI is for slow careful driving with limited boost duration? Glad no one's roadracing with this system! These findings must really thrill owners who already bought the system and some of the installers. And evidently this kit is not really a "bolt on" but an R&D project.
Last edited by jcv; 11-23-2003 at 05:54 PM.
#153
Originally posted by whosdady
I think the more friendly we are, the more helpful they will be. The more we rip on them the less likely they will be to come back and post more ideas.
I think the more friendly we are, the more helpful they will be. The more we rip on them the less likely they will be to come back and post more ideas.
#154
Originally posted by elektrik_juggernaut
I'm not really looking for ideas......there are plenty of brilliant members on this and other forums that have solved ATI's design problems for them........what i'm looking for is some accountability........i'm still waiting for them to say that they rushed this thing to market, and slacked on the engineering......even if they say it in a sugar-coated way i'll be satisfied.........the best they can do is have their partner-in-crime show up here with his appauling grammar and tell us all to stop cry(ing)........that's not gonna cut it......not for me anyway
I'm not really looking for ideas......there are plenty of brilliant members on this and other forums that have solved ATI's design problems for them........what i'm looking for is some accountability........i'm still waiting for them to say that they rushed this thing to market, and slacked on the engineering......even if they say it in a sugar-coated way i'll be satisfied.........the best they can do is have their partner-in-crime show up here with his appauling grammar and tell us all to stop cry(ing)........that's not gonna cut it......not for me anyway
#155
Great, let's go from bashing a company who is at least making an effort to be up front with us, to bashing a Japanese guy who also is trying to give us some information. Hey E.J. Do you think you could go over to a Japanese board and post gramatically correct in Japanese?
You guys cry too damn much. If you proport to be the freakin' mechanical geniuses you seem to think you all are, you should also know that with this type of modification, comes great risk.
You guys cry too damn much. If you proport to be the freakin' mechanical geniuses you seem to think you all are, you should also know that with this type of modification, comes great risk.
#156
A company that is trying to be up front with us????..........up front is when you tell people about problems with a kit before you sell it to them.
Give us information?.....is that what he's doing?......i'm sorry doctor, i thought he was defending a product that he retails in japan........and although he has an inexhaustible fund to spend on his drift car, i'm trying to keep costs down on reverse-engineering this $5000 piece of crap........thats not what i signed up for, but it sounds like you're happy with it
If you wanna talk about crying, what about all the PM's and emails you were sending me when you were upset that my Procharger shipped out before yours?......"but i paid for mine first, i don't understand " *sniffle*
Give us information?.....is that what he's doing?......i'm sorry doctor, i thought he was defending a product that he retails in japan........and although he has an inexhaustible fund to spend on his drift car, i'm trying to keep costs down on reverse-engineering this $5000 piece of crap........thats not what i signed up for, but it sounds like you're happy with it
If you wanna talk about crying, what about all the PM's and emails you were sending me when you were upset that my Procharger shipped out before yours?......"but i paid for mine first, i don't understand " *sniffle*
Last edited by elektrik_juggernaut; 11-24-2003 at 03:22 AM.
#157
Originally posted by jcv
Ah but Greddy didn't sell the kit before its time.
Ah but Greddy didn't sell the kit before its time.
Why is it everyone thinks the 'next' product is always better then the ones that have time on the market without even seeing the kit?
Why doesn't everyone reserve judgement until we have time on people's cars.. like we have now with ATI.
This pattern repeats itself with EVERY new product.. the new one is always great.. the last one always stinks in comparison..
#158
Originally posted by Dr Bonz
bashing a Japanese guy who also is trying to give us some information.
bashing a Japanese guy who also is trying to give us some information.
I feel for you guys having problems with the kits.. completely see your side of the story but don't zoom in on this, that's not necessary, adds no value and makes this less inviting for others that have done no harm and could add some value.. for example guys who designed major portions of our Z’s systems, but who don't have a complete command of English..
again I see where you guys are coming from on the kit, best of luck on getting it work they way it should.. peace
Last edited by ether; 11-24-2003 at 05:21 AM.
#159
Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Puerto Rico
Posts: 16
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Im no expert at any of this, but...
In my opinion, theres one interesting point in the whole issue. There ARE many cars with the ATI kit installed, running just fine, no problems whatsoever... Am I wrong?! If the unit was in some way defective, well, most of the installed kits would be malfunctioning right now. I think its fairly obvious that the different tuning approaches have had a big effect on how reliable the whole thing turns out.
So start looking into that.
Peace.
In my opinion, theres one interesting point in the whole issue. There ARE many cars with the ATI kit installed, running just fine, no problems whatsoever... Am I wrong?! If the unit was in some way defective, well, most of the installed kits would be malfunctioning right now. I think its fairly obvious that the different tuning approaches have had a big effect on how reliable the whole thing turns out.
So start looking into that.
Peace.
#160
Originally posted by ether
completely agree with the above.. that's not necessary, adds no value and makes this less inviting for others that have done no harm and could add some value..
completely agree with the above.. that's not necessary, adds no value and makes this less inviting for others that have done no harm and could add some value..