jesseenglish

I’m really pretty sick of the Procharger blame game, so I’ve pretty much completely dropped out of Procharger discussions, but I feel like some things need to be mentioned again.

I mean this as no flame to Max or anyone else who has flashed their ECU’s with larger injectors for an FI setup, but IMO doing that is asking for trouble. Here are my reasons. I’ve said it before, but I believe it needs to be repeated because I’ve had 3 PM’s asking what my opinion is regarding flashing the ECU for the Procharger.

The ECU is blind to boost. By requiring the ECU to control A/F ratios and timing for an FI engine you’re relying totally, in closed loop operation, on an overtaxed MAF sensor, TPS, inaccurate O2 sensors and it doesn’t have a MAP sensor at all. The MAF and TPS sensors are the only way the engine knows how much and at what temperature the air is that is entering your engine. The single stock knock sensor has already proved to be incapable of retarding timing for a boosted engine.

MAF: The MAF is a hot-wire type sensor which basically heats a wire and measures the voltage required to keep the wire at a certain temp. With that voltage measurement in combination with the throttle position sensor, the ECU knows how much air is entering the engine. The MAF is calibrated to operate in a vacuum condition. By changing to positive pressure, there is no way the MAF can accurately measure the amount or temperature of the air entering. So you’re relying entirely on a TPS/RPM table to calculate the air entering with no accurate measurement of temperature.

O2 sensors: Narrowband O2 sensors are extremely inaccurate at any A/F ratio other than stoichiometric or around 14.7:1. Now stoich is fine for NA applications, but not good as we all know for a high compression boosted engine. In closed loop operation, the engine is going to try to maintain stoich. Even if the ECU is reflashed to keep the A/F ratio richer, there is no way the stock NB O2 sensor can accurately measure the A/F ratio. Anyone who expects to properly tune an FI engine and attempt to keep the A/F ratio at 12:1 ratio is asking for trouble IMO.

Lack of MAP: A Manifold Absolute Pressure sensor is an absolute necessity for a boosted engine. Even a differential pressure transducer is better than what we have. We’ve got nothing on a stock 350Z. Without this, the engine has no way of knowing exactly how much boost the engine is seeing. What happens if your bypass valve gets stuck closed? With a flashed ECU you can pretty much guarantee your engine is gonna blow. The combination of an overtaxed MAF and no MAP is a dangerous situation. Take your car to an Arizona dragstrip some day in the middle of summer and you can pretty much kiss your engine goodbye.

Timing: Timing and knock control is obviously an issue for our engine. Bye flashing your ECU to a retarded timing setting you’ve cut the nutz off your car. Assuming your car is in the same operating conditions as it was when your ECU was flashed, it should run fine. But start changing conditions and you’ll notice a serious loss of performance. An external boost based timing retard is a much more responsive setup and I’d put money on the fact that two identical cars, one with a J&S to control timing and the other with an ECU flash. The J&S equipped car will outperform the other car most of the time. The stock knock control setup is obviously not able to retard timing appropriately for an FI engine and why should it be able to? It’s not supposed to be doing that. How about a bad tank of gas? The stock knock sensor isn't gonna be able to help out at all as has been proved in the past with blown engines.

Now with all that said, an ECU flash is not a totally bad thing. If I had more money than I knew what to do with, I’d flash the ECU for larger injectors, but in a totally stock setup. No FI involved whatsoever. Then I’d use the FMU or some other type of A/F controller for fuel management that has a MAP sensor, and the J&S setup for timing control.

Now, if you disagree with me and think I don’t know what the hell I’m talking about please chime in, but please no blame game crap. Let’s keep this discussion on topic.

12SecZ

LOL,

Why is my name always brought up? My car runs fine just ask Tadishi, he drove it through all gears. Too funny.

It's starting to sound like we should all just stay N/A.

Or buy the 500 dollar box from your group buy. It's the cure all.

How can fixing the timing, adding more fuel and opening up the exhaust be bad.

Sure your words are big and long and fancy but where is your track numbers?



I'm calling BS and actually on the phone with TS as I type. You always write as the final authority and you have been wrong before. Where were you before the timing when you were blaming it on the PCV system? Remember all that stuff?

I disagree, my 2 cents.

jesseenglish

So, I assume by your response you have have no relevant input into this discussion. Your name came up because you have a flashed ECU for Procharger, that's the only reason. Please Max, prove me wrong.

12SecZ

I will let me finish this call

jesseenglish

Well in typical Max fashion, you have edited your post 3 times. Attacking me doesn't add anything to the discussion. I have nothing against you personally, but think that people should be aware of the consequences of flashing their ECU. The fact that you're the first one who tried it means that your name is gonna be mentioned. Sorry if that makes you mad.

Personally I don't give a crap if you buy the $500 J&S box, I don't have anything to gain either way. I unlike some people aren't obsessed with track times, I've never raced any car I've ever owned on a track and I'm not gonna start now.

The PCV system was your symptom not the cause. No one could possibly know the cause from the descriptions you were giving back in the day. I never claimed to be the FI guru, I'm just simply putting out my opinions like I have the right to do.

Please if TS can prove me wrong, I'd love to hear it. I'll go out and buy the TS flash myself.

12SecZ

I'm not attacking you Jesse. Don't be so defensive. I am trying to stop the spread of misinformation. I edited out something because Technosquare logged on. I am sure you would like to throw words around like "attack" etc to silence me but I am not attacking you, you encouraged people to disagree. I am "disagreeing."

Is that better?

"Typical Max fashion"

That is an attackJesse , learn the difference. I attacked the content of your post, you attacked me!

spazpilot

iTrader: (2)

I don't think the ecu flash is a bad idea at all. What is wrong with flashing the ecu for a turbo upgrade and then adding the J&S or other timing/A/F computers. That is my plan with the greddy setup. I will have TS set me up for there turbo upgrade along with remapping the e manage. this way there is not such a drastic change between the ecu and a piggyback. You will always run into these problems on N/A cars. The only right fix according to you (Jess) would be to have a standalone of some sort, at least that is the only way you will get what you want. I am not willing to go this way. My car is a daily driver and at least with the ECU upgrade I can pass emmisions here in dallas. Safety, well right now the ecu upgrade is just as safe or better then anything out there and a heck of a lot better the no timing control. Its a matter of opinion. Like I said I will try to get the best of both by using the e manage for timing/fuel and the ecu flash. You said yourself that both is a good mixture and if the wastegate or blow off valve was to get stuck on a SC or turbo, Kiss your engine good bye no matter what system you use on this car.

12SecZ

P.S. I wasn't "the first one to try it."

ZED in Chicago was and it was done by Ultimate Z. They say it works and Ned's car runs perfectly. I will let the engineers pick apart your post, but for the record I take offense to you saying "in typical Max fashion.'

That is a personal attack and your facts are WRONG. I wasn't the first one to try it, speak with Ultimate Z they were the first.

jesseenglish

How will not having an ECU flash affect your emissions? I'm not saying that the only answer is having a stand alone, I'm saying that having the stock ECU as the only control of A/F and timing with no MAP sensor is dangerous. You're talking about having a greddy emanage, which is my point exactly. You need some sort of external device to detect boost.

If the bypass valve gets stuck with my FMU my engine will not blow because the FMU will sense the boost and add additional fuel and my soon to be added timing control will retard timing. Unlike the stock ECU which would have no idea that there was a problem.

jesseenglish

Yada yada yada, so stop the spread of misinformation by posting some relevant facts. I said myself that the ECU flash has a pertinent use, but I don't think that it's good to rely on it as the only source of A/F and timing control.

P.S. I have no idea who Zed is, so how could I possibly use his name in my post. If I had known I would've said Zed and Max, but I don't. My bad. I'm sorry if you took offense to in typical Max fashion.

12SecZ

Apology accepted. Perhaps ythis wasn't thouroughly researched by you. On motoring (where ZED and you have both posted in the ECU thread) you said you would go track your car for the Sports Z Challenge if your house wasn't closing escrow.

Then you come here and say that you have no intentions of ever going to a track.

Why did you buy FI then just to put around town?

ZED is an Engineer. Tadishi is an Engineer. Hopefully they will chime in on this thread.

If the narrow bands don't work with our ECU's how does the car even run?

I'm gonna bow out and let others debate you, you seem upset. Botton line and in closing my car runs fine and is a much safer setup than the Aeromotive FMU.

Take care man.

spazpilot

iTrader: (2)

The e manage does not detect boost. It works like the super afc only able to manipulate the timing, fuel curve, injection pulse etc. It is a preset. If the wastegates were to get stuck on a turbo we are not talking about an extra 1 or 2psi. Its a 30psi boost on td05 18g's. Say Bye Bye to the engine. No questions asked. If your bypass gets stuck don't bet on the fmu adding enough fuel to protect your engine. Remember the injectors with the procharger are already maxed out. I agree a better system is required but the ecu upgrade works just as well. if you talk to many viper and vette shops most of them would say to go with the ecu reprogram which would lead to the same situation as the Z's There is no real fix as of now. The only reason I will continue to use the e mange is because I can use the 440 injectors instead of spending the extra 900 for the 380's that the ecu is programed to. One good thing about the e mange I can put in injector sizes and it will remap my fuel curve. As for emmisions here all they do is hook up the obd II port and if all the sensors work and there is no SES light you pass. TS does not mess with the sensors only remaps timing and fuel(along with other little bits). I am for the ecu. think about it, timing setup for turbos, fuel setup for turbo, no speed limiter, and a much needed increase rev limiter to 7100. For that alone its worth the money. you should look into it and integrate the fmu you have to it, that would then give you more room to play with. you won't be running on maxed injectors and have room to play with if your bypass got stuck. Anyway do you how much boost would increase on a procharger if the bypass did get stuck? If its more then 14psi i would say that nothing you do will keep you motor from blowing. Its the price we pay if we want FI.

jesseenglish

I was gonna track the car on the SC shootout because you guys were hounding me about it. I bought the SC to embarass Porsches and Mustangs.

NB O2's work, but not very well unless you're at stoich. I'm glad you're happy with your car, but I believe that there are better ways to do it.

12SecZ

http://350zmotoring.com/forums/showt...&threadid=4680

Emanage won't work, ask EJ why. Been rehashed already.

jeffw

I was wondering if any of you Procharger owners would be willing to use 75% throttle up to 6000rpm? What about feather the throttle at high RPM around a curve that can't be taken at full throttle but still requires a good bit of gas to keep speed? Is the answer different for TS flash + Procharger owners vs. aeromotive?

I think part throttle will be where there is trouble, if any. TS is pretty secretive about what exactly they have done with their ECU. I'd like to know exactly what changes they have made for part throttle application.

That said, I really like the idea of the J&S. I just don't know if a MAP sensor + controller that can use it is really needed for a supercharger. I'd definitely want one for a turbo car though.

A stuck bypass is an issue, but in some cases I don't even know if there's anything an ECU could do about it other than cut fuel and "hope" you could safely get out of boost. Keep force feeding fuel to avoid lean conditions and you'll still be accelerating when you don't want to. Could our drive by wire throttle bodies even shut against 7PSI?


--
Jeff

spazpilot

iTrader: (2)

I wouldn't believe that max because the release of the turbo kit for greddy is with the e manage and idle was never a problem. It works and does the same thing as the ts upgrade by remaping the fuel and timing. It also has a feature on it were you can run larger injectors and change the pulse rate down low to run like stock injectors. pretty cool I thought. messed with it before and worked like a champ.

jesseenglish

We're talking about apples and oranges here. I don't know anything about the Greddy Turbo kit.

Once again, I didn't say the ECU reflash was a bad idea. It might even be a good idea for your application, but an ECU remap alone is not the best option.

BTW, Greddy Emanage is capable of detecting boost with an optional MAP sensor.

elektrik_juggernaut

If y'all are wondering why this thread even got started, here's your answer:


What is the point of this jesse?......do you think we're all gonna stop believing that the reflash works because you say so?.......look at the evidence.......i haven't heard of any TS cars blowing up.........but i've heard of lots of Aeromotive cars becoming oil volcanoes


how can a stock Z keep from blowing itself up?......it has the narrowband sensors that you're saying aren't good enough.......why aren't the car companies breaking down your door to get you in their engineering department?

so you read a couple of books, now you're going to come educate us all?........thanks, but no thanks

i remember when you said the Aeromotive was good enough......we know what happened to that theory

I remember when you were telling us our Procharged cars were running lean because of pressure from the air conditioner!!!!

then you took apart the PCV system........if i remember correctly you started arguing with my installer about the PCV system......he was telling you that the valve opened up when there was pressure in the crankcase.......and you told him "no, not really, the valve operates when there is a vacuum on the other side of the valve"........guess what PCV stands for?.....Positive Crankcase Ventilation!!!

c'mon jesse, you're a smart guy, but not as smart as you think you are.......not all of us are looking for your blessing on our modifications.......

none of your posts are asking questions, they're all making statements........"i am this technical guru, and this is what i think about yada yada yada.....it won't work because yada, yada yada"

You wanna know who the guys are that know their ****?........its the guys with the small signatures!.........am i on topic?

12SecZ

"Once again, I didn't say the ECU reflash was a bad idea."

Yes you did, you implied it several times just reread your original post.

Let's get to the facts.

1. You start a thread talking about the blame game with my name at the beggining. Right off the bat you put people on the offensive. Who is blaming who about what? You don't say in your post.

Then you say we were "hounding" you to go to the Sports Z challenge.

Let me address that. You have been very vocal about how good the ATI kit is in stock form (and apperently still are.)

Sports Z Magazine needed an ATI tester ASAP (great magazine just finished reading my first issue BTW) Why not you we though? You were closer than us. We wanted to make sure our kit got in the challenge and we only had 3 days. We were not hounding you we were asking you. We figured as a vocal "author" you would want to help. Obviusly you don't.

Then you come in and make claims that could hurt the sales of not only Technosquare but also Power Enterprise and you don't expect your thread to be controversial? Come on Jesse!

The only blame game I have seen in this thread is you blaming me for attacking you.

People resort to that (belittling people) when they feel they are losing an argument. I assure you Jesse that this post of yours will get torn apart in the next couple of days and rather than whine "personal attack" the only "blame" is on you for posting this nonsense that hurts Technosquare as a business who just happens to have at least 3 trouble 3 Pro Charger ECU reflashed cars running perfectly (that I know of.)

jesseenglish

I'm glad this thread stayed on topic, thanks Max. I was talking about blame game as far as saying ATI should've done this at the beginning. I think that the TS flash has it's place, but IMO it should not be to be the sole control of the vq35de engine with FI.

I knew you guys weren't "hounding" me. I knew that you were just trying to get me in on the challenge.

Maybe my post appeared too harsh in my criticism of the TS flash. I merely meant to state that assigning sole control of fuel and timing to an ECU that doesn't have the appropriate sensors and controls is dangerous.

I stand by that I don't care if it hurts TS' sales.