daking350

I am currently working on a piggyback ECU package for BOOSTED 350Z's. I have little details at this point but can say that my car will be going in at the end of the holidays for testing and dyno tuning with this unit.And if all is well I will be distributing this unit as a package in conjunction with my friends shop...For locals we will be including DYNO time as part of the package...The unit will be able to do the following:
A/F adjustments, Timing adjustments,DATA logging,and will be set up to work Either with LARGER injectors or a COST EFFECTIVE EXTRA INJECTOR method (like the STILLEN SC)
We will also be working on a TWIN TURBO MODEL EVENTUALLY...
We will develope this kit for the ATI @8lbs and @9lbs of boost...
The unit may also be set up to work with a MAP sensor opposed to just adjusting A/F and timing based on RPM!!!
I will be conducting the initial BUY in on this and testing, and I will keep you informed along the way...I am meeting with the shop next SAT and will have more to follow..
Also the unit MAY be packaged with software which enables the
user to have any shop DYNO TUNE it for further mods....
I think this is promising and may prove to be the solution to all your boosted woes!!!pm me for details, I do not have pricing info YET!!

daking350

bump for interest

jesseenglish

Interested, but obviously will await some results. Please keep us updated.

daking350

will do..but keep in mind this may require the replacement of injectors and maybee upgraded fuel pump..but it is the RIGHT way to do it instead of that BAND AID box ATI gives!!

GaryK

A couple questions for now...I know I'll have more later:

Will this unit control larger injectors directly, or will it simply modify the MAF sensor signal and/or other inputs to the ecu?

For timing control, will it have its own knock retard capabilities?

Also a comment:
Since this unit will have fuel and timing control capabilities as well as other sought after functions, I'm guessing the price will be kind of high (just IMHO, but I'll let you post that when available). Due to the price range I'm expecting and the capabilities, I think it will have to be programmable by the end user. Otherwise, a lot of potential buyers will go for other solutions.

jesseenglish

daking350, I already assumed that, so it's no surprise to me.

Gary, I agree 100%. 1 size does not fit all and if I can't modify the settings, it doesn't do me any good. Not saying that this one will be like that, but It's an absolute requirement for me personally.

daking350

Most likely larger injectors or an additional injector(cheaper method)
I believe it piggybacks,intercerps and changes the ECU output..And can have a MAP sensor ADDED to it..Not sure of all the technical detals..Gonna sit down with the guy next Sat...
From what it sounds like it will be user programable Via software and it DATA LOGS for reference..I know the dicussed cost of it INSTALLED,TUNED,and including DYNO time was in the $1200 range..But I am doing the dyno tuning and trying to package and distribute this item if it works(which they swear it will) for Much,much Cheaper.....Take into account that DYNO time in NJ is $150-175 an hour and install isnt cheap Either...If this works on my car this could be the solution to the TS ecu flash!!

daking350

P.s. It does adjust the timing and I believe it will adjust it using the MAP sensor(which I think would be an add on)..Not sure on the knock detection...I would assume if tuned properly with this unit you woulnt experience KNOCK any longer...

GaryK

Hey, is there any way the guys behind this unit could come in and take part in some discussion at some point? I understand if you think its a bad idea with all the "wars" going on here, but I think it would be immensely helpful to anyone that wants to know more of the technical details. This thing certainly sounds exciting.

Ooh, ooh! Something else I really would like to know about is the logging capabilities. What parameters can it log, and will it have user configurable inputs for other devices and sensors?

GaryK

Even when tuned so you don't normally experience knock, its wise to have a "backup plan". A good knock retard algorithm can make all the difference between keeping your motor healthy and totally destroying it.

Sorry for all the questions....it would just be nice to have more control over everything without dropping the 2 or 3 grand for the Techtom hardware and software. Hopefully the price on this thing will be low, otherwise the upcoming Xede might be too much competition.

jesseenglish

Wow, the Dyno owners must be price fixing or something because that's ridiculous.

Personally, I'd rather just go the additional injector route because of the cost.

Sounds good, I'd also be interested to know exactly what sensors it reads from mainly so I'd have an idea of how adaptable it is to changing conditions.

GaryK

I should clarify...the Techtom mentioned above is what is used by folks like Technosquare to flash the factory ecu. I don't remember the exact cost, but I did contact Techtom a while back for a price quote, and it was somewhere in that price range...too much money for what you get IMO. For that kind of loot, I'd just install a high end aftermarket standalone ecu.

daking350

I dont believe that they wish to get involved on this board..Its not exclusive 350Z technology,these guys have been using this unit for years and are exclusive distributers for it...As far as I understand the data logging wil show you EXACTLY what you A/F and timing were at any given RPM and you will be able to go in and change it as necesarry..I dont know exactly if they are going to give the consumer that option or limit it to the tuner....Really technical stuff that I have to go over as I may be making the initial investment on several units PRE-tuned to my vehicle(IE..ATI@8/9lbs-specific injectors-exhaust-headers -ect...) which would wind up being our BASIC boosted application and then whatever tuning changes you make from there are on you..or your tuner..It really does sound like the majic box..But we will see..I dont want to hype everyone up and let them down but lets just say that I am optimistic at least for MY car ...If I can help others in the process and make a $$$ or two then hey..Thats gravy...Please understand that I am absorbing all the initial costs from my own pocket and paying for all dyno time to develope this...So if it is a failure then I loose.. The only thing I can say is that it will be similar to the XEDE unit from Vishnu...same basic principles...

daking350

I already looked into the MOTEC stand alone unit but the problem lies in the way our computer system works in our vehicle...The ECU is on a system that communicates with all the other computers in the car and shares vital information..You remove the ECU and you loose ABS/VCD/TRACTIOC/SPEED SENORS/ECT....A stand alone is good for RACE applications but you will invest THOESANDS of $$$$in figuring out a way to make it work properly..Not to mention the MOTEC is $1300 just for the unit...If you ask me attempting a stand alone is one big headache if you plan on using your car as a street car....The cost on this unit I think will depend on the options and will be well worth the investment....Just something to think about, If you go TS and rely on the MAF to adjust A/F ratios I think the stock MAF is limited in the 500hp range(engine hp)....

GaryK

Yep, for a street app you really can't just yank the ecu out. You could probably leave it in there, but just not let it control the engine. I have seen other cars where this was done, but you may have to fool the factory ecu in some way to make it think its controlling the engine.

It sounds like there might be a "standard" version and a "tuner" version of your unit. I'm really only interested in the "tuner" version - its cost and features...if it turns out that there are two options. The whole point is that it allows guys like me to do their own tuning

Also, it isn't necessarily a bad thing to release this unit to everyone with a full feature set that you might normally reserve for a tuner. If you get enough of 'em out there, then as a community knowledge will be gained and standard maps can be shared as a starting point for each persons application if they do want to take a stab at tuning themselves.

daking350

I think if you give people too much control in tuning you risk even more catastrophic engine failures...I think anotherone went down in FLORIDA....I was doing some more research on this unit and it seems it has capabilities for controling bigger injectors as well as an EXTRA injector..Maybee good for those guys who wanna spay some N2O down their intakes on top of boost??!!?!?!

jesseenglish

Very true, maybe a signed liability waiver for those people who are able to do their own tuning, like myself and GaryK. If they're not capable of their own tuning, they get the one size fits all, or only make the software available to their tuners.

daking350

Here is the update...
12/26/03 went to meet with, Well we will refer to him as "THE MAN"...This is the scoop...On 12/29/03 My car will be going in for a BASELINE dyno tune with the existing FMU setup supplied by ATI.My mods at the time of dyno will be test pipes and borla true dual exhaust and ATI @7-8 psi...Shortly there after it will be fitted with his piggyback ECU and tuned accordingly still utilizing the AEROMOTIVE FMU...From the dyno charts "THE MAN" was showing me , he was able to squeez 55 more HP out of a turbocharged BMW with only his ECU and 40+ years of tuning experience..These two dyno's he showed me were done on the same DYNO and SAME day!!

After hashing over some details we will most likely be offering this ECU in 3 stages for cost effectiveness..

Stage one: will utilize the existing FMU from Aeromotive(which must be dyno tuned to our supplied A/F ratios first!!!) and stock injectors and simply fine tune timing and fuel maps..This Stage will be benificial for 2 reasons..First by keeping your stock injectors and FMU , you can keep the car extremely drivable and reliable under most conditions and is plug and play!!
Second, it is more cost effective and will provide more HP at safer levels than just the FMU alone...The pricing on this kit will be very compeditive to Techno square but gives the user adjustability of several parameters most likely going to be..Fuel,Timing and ignition...and has 2 maps(one for pump gas or street use and another for race fuel or race use)switchible either via a dash switch or lap top!!!!Not to mention full data logging and playback!!

Stage Two: Removes the Aeromotive FMU and utilizes EXTRA injectors to deliver the extra fuel. It is undetermined yet if we will need an extra fuel pump but we can set it to turn on an EXTRA fuel pump running a seperate fuel line to the extra injectors..We do not know the capabilities of the stock pump yet..This option is obviously going to be more costly but in conjunction with an ATI tuner kit, may prove to be VERY effective!!Same features as stage one as far as timing and maps!!

Stage Three: is what will seperate the boys from the men!! Replaces stock injectors with larger fuel injectors and replaces fuel pump with bigger pump as well as fuel lines and possible rails!! Alot more money but this is the kit that will allow for some serious HP gains!!Most likely the kit going on MY car with 9-11 psi and estimated HP of 450-500rwhp...FOR NOW

I will post the BASE line ATI dyno chart on Monday and ifo as it comes..This unit will be for sale probably by mid March 04 maybee sooner...Contact me for pre-order pricing and availability...Stage one will be the first done and will most likely be done in Jan 04!!!
This ECU piggy back is FAR superior to the J&S knock retard unit for a few reasons...
1)A properly tuned car shouldnt experience KNOCK in the FIRST place..
2)When a KS detects Knock it retards the timing drastically reducing HP and only GRADUALLY advances the timing back into effective range..This was showed to me on a dyno chart where the KS pulled timing and resulted in a 39hp loss for a broad portion of the powerband...
3)this unit will advance or retard the timing as much as you tune it to..It will be preset from us but you will have tunability for future mods...
4)we will have 2 maps...One will be safer and tuned on a lower octain gas and the other will be tuned on Higher octain/race gas...

GaryK

Not trying to take away from what you're trying to do but, your claim that this method of timing control is better than the J&S is not really true. For some reason, people seem to think the J&S simply detects knock and retards timing as a result. While that is one function of the unit, and it does this better than the ecu, this is not the only function. The J&S does allow you to tune the timing so that you do not experience knock in the first place. This will do the same thing your unit will. The knock retard function is just a safety net for when something is not right, like you filled up with 87 octane on accident.

I just don't think your unit has an advange over the J&S for timing control because the J&S does everything your unit will when it comes to timing, and might do more depending on what your unit does as far as knock retard algorithms. Now, the ability to control the timing and fuel with one device is nice, and that would be an advantage over the J&S since it is only one part of a complete solution. But the J&S can be tuned, and when set up properly there will not normally be any knock detected, and therefore no knock retard.

Also, any unit that does do knock retard will have to pull out a large amount of timing and slowly add it back in order to get the knock under control. This is the only way to effectively get knock back under control, and yes it will cause a loss of power. But, this is a part of the timing control that should only be used when something is not normal. Under normal conditions, knock will not be detected and you will not suffer a big power loss due to severely retarded timing.

daking350

well, Gary thanks for promoting the J&S unit on my thread first of all...Second of all our unit will alow more flexibility than the J&S unit..J&S is simply a timing controller, it does not do A/F it is not tunable simply pre-set for 2-4-6-8 degrees of retard, plus an AMP retard....Our unit can be programmed to take a certain amount of timing out at certain rpms,and additional on boost...While controling A/F and ignition and data logging all of the ifo onto a laptop...It also enables the user to custom tune every parameter for further mods...It can be set up to control an extra fuel pump for boost or N2O, extra injectors..It basically does everything the J&S will do plus more and will probably be priced in the area of the TS reflash unit..This unit will do everything you need it to and is only limited by the users goals and $$$...

One more thing I am not turning this thread into the usual DEBATE forum..This is for serious enthusiasts that seek a solution to affordable and feasible engine management..This unit can also be done for N/A cars too...Please do not flame me or beat me over the head with non sense...I am simply doing something for the good of the Z community so all may prosper..