a rant
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From: San Diego
a rant
I'm gonna vent here some, not directed at anyone in particular and spread across all the 350Z boards.
Very few people know wtf they are doing in this community with regards to making any type of boost. Our motor is bad to run boost on with the super high compression and wacky timing. Boosting any non-turbo car should not be taken lightly.
It's seriously feels like the Honda community of years ago when the turbo kit's came out and you get all sorts of people with too much money to burn wanting to and buying some turbo or supercharger kit and not knowing how to tune/run/take care of/setup properly something like that.
People need to learn they are taking a risk by buying a supercharger and bad things do happen. ATI should have put out a kit with 4psi or something so dumbasses don't blow there motors. Everyone goes for the kits with the most power output and will try to run them at the ragged edge but expect 100% perfect reliability with little to no effort. Just because something like a turbo kit or ati supercharger costs a lot of money doesn't guarantee it's going to be 100% safe.
Look at stillens kit, they design it with less power for a reason. They've learned their lesson that sometimes lower power is better with an end consumer who probably doesn't know what they are doing so they make em fairly idiot-proof. Which is good for them, they may not sell quite as many or be the fastest or have the most HP, but they are making a quality product designed so it's a good bit more difficult to blow the motor.
As for the ATI kit, it's a quality kit and is great for people who know that with anything is going to require tuning. Platinum plugs are not performance plugs and should never be used in boosted applications. Copper conducts electricity better and usually has a significantly bigger center electrode and will give a better spark. Platinum plugs don't foul as easily and in the days of advertising long maintenance periods are almost required to keep that requirement. If you have a fi application, especially on motors not designed for it you should be checking things like plugs all the time to see how the motor is running.
Also, it was said somewhere around here that the people who've done custom kit's have all been fine. There is a reason for that and it's because they know what heck they are doing. When it comes time to do tuning they are doing it properly and keeping track of it and not expecting a turnkey 150hp in a box type deal. This is reflected in those posts by people who haven't had problems since they are doing things right.
There are going to be issues with any brand new car when it comes to adding more power and those who choose to adopt early are going to be testing the waters for everyone. If you don't have a clue about making good safe boost on your motor then you would be a bad candidate for getting one early. Only it seems most of these types of people have the extra cash to throw at it and don't understand the risks.
Nissan really needs to come out with a factory turbo with much lower compression and an ECU optimized for forced induction duty. I'll trade my track in the day something like that comes out as it'll take away so much of the hassle that comes with trying to make a lot of power out of a nonturbo motor that is already pushed to some extremes to get high n/a power (high comp. ratio, timing advance, etc.)
When it's said that you feel like you're building the car/motor around the supercharger that is exactly how you should be doing it. Regardless of the type of way you're getting to FI, that will be the major consideration. FI has many many special needs that have to be addressed to make higher HP reliably. Beefed up lower compression pistons is one of the main things that is needed if anyone is going to want to get higher HP from the Z. Any way to try lots of psi of boost from anything and this will be a requirement. It's too bad people haven't figured this out yet on these 350Z boards. Look at that car from Australia that was posted that was making 500+hp. He did it right, put in quality internals and now has a reliable and powerful car. Adding boost to any stock, high compression motor is asking for trouble and is definitely not the way to go for reliability. If you want lots of power and to be dead reliable get your motor re-worked to accept a supercharger or turbo and do it right, or accept the fact that you might have to go with a lower hp output that might be provided by something with 4-5 psi of boost on a stock motor.
It's sad that a larger portion of these threads just feel like they are filled with ricer Honda kids who need to go crying to mommy because they got in over their heads with a major purchase and now that it's not working correctly want anyone to blame but themselves so they don't have to *gasp* take a little personal responsibility for the decisions they have made.
Those that have learned from their mistakes and are moving on and hopefully learning from their experiences will be helpful to everyone. But bashing someone who sells you something that can be dangerous to the car, as any supercharger or twin turbo can be if not done properly can be, is just silly. It's like trying to sue a company that makes guns because some guy who bought one shoots someone else with it. That is about as useful as some of the bashing that's gone on in some of these threads. It's sad, and combine that with the bashing of other things like sport z and I'm surprised that the 350Z is getting as much aftermarket support as it is. I'd stay far away if I was getting into that and find something else better suited to being receptive of getting the support.
Ok, rant off, this isn't meant as a flame of anyone at all, just some frustration I've been getting reading all the posts on this and other boards. Hopefully as time progresses the knowledge will grow and the problems people have been having will go away with further education and development.
Very few people know wtf they are doing in this community with regards to making any type of boost. Our motor is bad to run boost on with the super high compression and wacky timing. Boosting any non-turbo car should not be taken lightly.
It's seriously feels like the Honda community of years ago when the turbo kit's came out and you get all sorts of people with too much money to burn wanting to and buying some turbo or supercharger kit and not knowing how to tune/run/take care of/setup properly something like that.
People need to learn they are taking a risk by buying a supercharger and bad things do happen. ATI should have put out a kit with 4psi or something so dumbasses don't blow there motors. Everyone goes for the kits with the most power output and will try to run them at the ragged edge but expect 100% perfect reliability with little to no effort. Just because something like a turbo kit or ati supercharger costs a lot of money doesn't guarantee it's going to be 100% safe.
Look at stillens kit, they design it with less power for a reason. They've learned their lesson that sometimes lower power is better with an end consumer who probably doesn't know what they are doing so they make em fairly idiot-proof. Which is good for them, they may not sell quite as many or be the fastest or have the most HP, but they are making a quality product designed so it's a good bit more difficult to blow the motor.
As for the ATI kit, it's a quality kit and is great for people who know that with anything is going to require tuning. Platinum plugs are not performance plugs and should never be used in boosted applications. Copper conducts electricity better and usually has a significantly bigger center electrode and will give a better spark. Platinum plugs don't foul as easily and in the days of advertising long maintenance periods are almost required to keep that requirement. If you have a fi application, especially on motors not designed for it you should be checking things like plugs all the time to see how the motor is running.
Also, it was said somewhere around here that the people who've done custom kit's have all been fine. There is a reason for that and it's because they know what heck they are doing. When it comes time to do tuning they are doing it properly and keeping track of it and not expecting a turnkey 150hp in a box type deal. This is reflected in those posts by people who haven't had problems since they are doing things right.
There are going to be issues with any brand new car when it comes to adding more power and those who choose to adopt early are going to be testing the waters for everyone. If you don't have a clue about making good safe boost on your motor then you would be a bad candidate for getting one early. Only it seems most of these types of people have the extra cash to throw at it and don't understand the risks.
Nissan really needs to come out with a factory turbo with much lower compression and an ECU optimized for forced induction duty. I'll trade my track in the day something like that comes out as it'll take away so much of the hassle that comes with trying to make a lot of power out of a nonturbo motor that is already pushed to some extremes to get high n/a power (high comp. ratio, timing advance, etc.)
When it's said that you feel like you're building the car/motor around the supercharger that is exactly how you should be doing it. Regardless of the type of way you're getting to FI, that will be the major consideration. FI has many many special needs that have to be addressed to make higher HP reliably. Beefed up lower compression pistons is one of the main things that is needed if anyone is going to want to get higher HP from the Z. Any way to try lots of psi of boost from anything and this will be a requirement. It's too bad people haven't figured this out yet on these 350Z boards. Look at that car from Australia that was posted that was making 500+hp. He did it right, put in quality internals and now has a reliable and powerful car. Adding boost to any stock, high compression motor is asking for trouble and is definitely not the way to go for reliability. If you want lots of power and to be dead reliable get your motor re-worked to accept a supercharger or turbo and do it right, or accept the fact that you might have to go with a lower hp output that might be provided by something with 4-5 psi of boost on a stock motor.
It's sad that a larger portion of these threads just feel like they are filled with ricer Honda kids who need to go crying to mommy because they got in over their heads with a major purchase and now that it's not working correctly want anyone to blame but themselves so they don't have to *gasp* take a little personal responsibility for the decisions they have made.
Those that have learned from their mistakes and are moving on and hopefully learning from their experiences will be helpful to everyone. But bashing someone who sells you something that can be dangerous to the car, as any supercharger or twin turbo can be if not done properly can be, is just silly. It's like trying to sue a company that makes guns because some guy who bought one shoots someone else with it. That is about as useful as some of the bashing that's gone on in some of these threads. It's sad, and combine that with the bashing of other things like sport z and I'm surprised that the 350Z is getting as much aftermarket support as it is. I'd stay far away if I was getting into that and find something else better suited to being receptive of getting the support.
Ok, rant off, this isn't meant as a flame of anyone at all, just some frustration I've been getting reading all the posts on this and other boards. Hopefully as time progresses the knowledge will grow and the problems people have been having will go away with further education and development.
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From: Maryland
Hindsight is 20/20 isn't it? This post is meaningless given the time frame in which it was posted. Anyone could have posted this and everyone already know this now. I, and a few others agreed, said a long time ago that this motor had too high of compression to run FI but some people need to touch the hot plate at the dinner table to know if it's hot even though the waiter said it is hot. Hey, some people haven't had any problems. There are a lot of factors. I think that all the FI choices with the exception of one will work just fine at a detuned (timing) state. There is a twin turbo guy here in DFW who's car is awesome and running well (as far as I know) and several superchargers that are doing well. Don't base the FI market on one product.
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Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 806
Likes: 1
From: Gainesville, Florida
Re: a rant
I've been thinking about making a post like this for a long time.
ATI should have included something like the J&S....
then people ***** about it being too expensive...
so and so should make more power. they dont so they suck....
then people say they should have released a kit running less boost to be safer.
Do it right or don't do it at all. If you do it anyway, that's your deal. Reliability needs to be the consumer's responsibility as well with FI kits. Too many people think they can just throw money at their car and make it go faster w/o bothering to take the time to do it right.
ATI should have included something like the J&S....
then people ***** about it being too expensive...
so and so should make more power. they dont so they suck....
then people say they should have released a kit running less boost to be safer.
Do it right or don't do it at all. If you do it anyway, that's your deal. Reliability needs to be the consumer's responsibility as well with FI kits. Too many people think they can just throw money at their car and make it go faster w/o bothering to take the time to do it right.
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 531
Likes: 1
From: ---
Excellent post Spyre! You pretty much summed up how I feel about FI on the z and the state of things here. There really are people on this board with some sense...they seem to be popping up more and more lately 
Preach Brother, Preach.....
I too, have been contemplating typing this very same post ( for a very, very long time).
Unfortunaly I've been either to busy or to fustrated by the whinning to voice my opinions.
The bottom line is: the final responability of a vehicle running correctly and safely, belongs to the tuner and owner of the vehicle.
I applaud those who are taking the inital and inherent risk of twisting the motor to see how far things go. Smithtown Nissan deserves alot of respect in this reguard. They were determined to find the limits of the stock VQ and succeded spectaculary. BOOM.
Now we all know the limits for N2O on the stock motor.
The FI Z owners have been a very good group as well. A large amount of information has been attained and shared on the boards.
Thanks.
Unfortunatly some of the owners we not aware, or ignored, the risk involved in being the first to step up to the plate. I assume from these owners posts, that these individuals do not seem to have any prior experience in high-performance tuning or forced induction.
I've read posts about the cars that have blown up. Some times the driver noticed that something was wrong, detonation, yet continued to drive or worse yet made long WOT pulls on the car to replicate the condition. Boom. If there is a noticable problem STOP DRIVING THE CAR. Take it back to the tuner and have them re-evaluate the situation.
Remember though, running too rich is just as bad as running lean. I've seen some of the A/F's in the 10.5 range. This is washing the cylinders w/ fuel. Oil is breaking down and the pistons are scuffing the cylinder walls. I would really like to see the pistons and an oil sample from the blown motor cars. I'll wager some have failed from being too rich.
The expectations of factory reliability and a significant increase in power output are unrealistic.
Power, Reliable, Cheap
Pick 2.
Reliable FI required more than just a simple bolt on kit reguardless of the vehicle. Day in and day out I have customers bringing me what we refer to as "ebay turbos" and turbo "kits" to attach to their cars. S2k's, Hatches, Eclipses, Supras, etc... We turn them away. Our company will not do FI on any vehicle that does not have upgraded supporting systems. Fuel, ECU, Etc...
The best solution for those interested in FI for the stock Z right now have 2 paths as I see it.
Option 1:
Buy one fo the current FI kits, and stick RELIGIOUSLY to the manufactures recomendations. Notice ATI's or Vortech's test car hasn't blown up. Greddy has blown up 3 in the process of testing before releasing the kit to the public. They were trying to get too much out of the motor w/ the limited ability of the E-manage system. Do not try to turn up the wick on the system. Have the system tuned correctly. If it has any problems take it back to the tuner immediatly.
Option 2:
Find a reputable shop. One that has years of experience building high HP FI motors and an eddy current or water brake dyno. Not just a shop that bolts kits on civics. A shop that actually has someone that is capable of doing more that turning a wrench. An engine builder, not an assembler. Yes they are going to cost more. Re-read the quote in bold above. FI is not cheap, nor should it be attempted by a miser. Do your research, find someone w/ experience, Pay for their knowledge. It does come out cheaper in the long run.
The reason for the eddy current or water brake dyno is such. An inertial dyno cannot load the car in such a way to replicate real world conditions. This is the reason some cars have not had problems on the dyno but out on the road the car will detonate under boost. The eddy current or water brake dyno will allow your tuner to load the motor in a manner that approximates or exceeds real world conditions. If you want big numbers, run on an intertial dyno. You want a car tuned, Eddy Current or Water Brake.
This post is not directed @ anyone in perticular, this is just a general rant.
Unfortunaly I've been either to busy or to fustrated by the whinning to voice my opinions.
The bottom line is: the final responability of a vehicle running correctly and safely, belongs to the tuner and owner of the vehicle.
I applaud those who are taking the inital and inherent risk of twisting the motor to see how far things go. Smithtown Nissan deserves alot of respect in this reguard. They were determined to find the limits of the stock VQ and succeded spectaculary. BOOM.
Now we all know the limits for N2O on the stock motor.
The FI Z owners have been a very good group as well. A large amount of information has been attained and shared on the boards.
Thanks.
Unfortunatly some of the owners we not aware, or ignored, the risk involved in being the first to step up to the plate. I assume from these owners posts, that these individuals do not seem to have any prior experience in high-performance tuning or forced induction.
I've read posts about the cars that have blown up. Some times the driver noticed that something was wrong, detonation, yet continued to drive or worse yet made long WOT pulls on the car to replicate the condition. Boom. If there is a noticable problem STOP DRIVING THE CAR. Take it back to the tuner and have them re-evaluate the situation.
Remember though, running too rich is just as bad as running lean. I've seen some of the A/F's in the 10.5 range. This is washing the cylinders w/ fuel. Oil is breaking down and the pistons are scuffing the cylinder walls. I would really like to see the pistons and an oil sample from the blown motor cars. I'll wager some have failed from being too rich.
It's sad that a larger portion of these threads just feel like they are filled with ricer Honda kids who need to go crying to mommy because they got in over their heads with a major purchase and now that it's not working correctly want anyone to blame but themselves so they don't have to *gasp* take a little personal responsibility for the decisions they have made.
Power, Reliable, Cheap
Pick 2.
Reliable FI required more than just a simple bolt on kit reguardless of the vehicle. Day in and day out I have customers bringing me what we refer to as "ebay turbos" and turbo "kits" to attach to their cars. S2k's, Hatches, Eclipses, Supras, etc... We turn them away. Our company will not do FI on any vehicle that does not have upgraded supporting systems. Fuel, ECU, Etc...
The best solution for those interested in FI for the stock Z right now have 2 paths as I see it.
Option 1:
Buy one fo the current FI kits, and stick RELIGIOUSLY to the manufactures recomendations. Notice ATI's or Vortech's test car hasn't blown up. Greddy has blown up 3 in the process of testing before releasing the kit to the public. They were trying to get too much out of the motor w/ the limited ability of the E-manage system. Do not try to turn up the wick on the system. Have the system tuned correctly. If it has any problems take it back to the tuner immediatly.
Option 2:
Find a reputable shop. One that has years of experience building high HP FI motors and an eddy current or water brake dyno. Not just a shop that bolts kits on civics. A shop that actually has someone that is capable of doing more that turning a wrench. An engine builder, not an assembler. Yes they are going to cost more. Re-read the quote in bold above. FI is not cheap, nor should it be attempted by a miser. Do your research, find someone w/ experience, Pay for their knowledge. It does come out cheaper in the long run.
The reason for the eddy current or water brake dyno is such. An inertial dyno cannot load the car in such a way to replicate real world conditions. This is the reason some cars have not had problems on the dyno but out on the road the car will detonate under boost. The eddy current or water brake dyno will allow your tuner to load the motor in a manner that approximates or exceeds real world conditions. If you want big numbers, run on an intertial dyno. You want a car tuned, Eddy Current or Water Brake.
This post is not directed @ anyone in perticular, this is just a general rant.
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