TopgunZ Twincharge Dyno #1
05-21-2012, 06:57 AM
#1
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TopgunZ Twincharge Dyno #1
I finally got the Z on the Dyno this weekend. This was done on a 6 lb pulley and 4 pounds at the turbo. We also just let it roll with what it produced since this is a new design and we didnt want to get crazy. Im going to run this for a bit then put on a boost controller, buy a Haltec, and turn the turbo up some and possibly put the 8.5lb pulley on.
The strangest part about "Compound" boost is that we still arent sure whats happening. The Utec read 10lbs which is most accurate. But at that then we are just adding the boost and not compounding. However, my Defi boost gauge reads 15.
Here are the numbers. Safe yet everything comes on fast.
The strangest part about "Compound" boost is that we still arent sure whats happening. The Utec read 10lbs which is most accurate. But at that then we are just adding the boost and not compounding. However, my Defi boost gauge reads 15.
Here are the numbers. Safe yet everything comes on fast.
05-21-2012, 08:04 AM
#3
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Would be interesting to compare this with the SC disabled, one with Turbo disabled and then combined.
How are you going to control the boost? The plumbing seems like it would be confusing for the wastegate control.
Looks like a good midrange and topend
How are you going to control the boost? The plumbing seems like it would be confusing for the wastegate control.
Looks like a good midrange and topend
05-21-2012, 01:43 PM
#6
where are you sourcing the boost vs map sensor from? should be right about 11-12 psi roughly, but thats if you actually made 4 psi on the psi spring. i know with the 8(think its 8.65?) spring on my kit i was peaking at about 7.4 psi boost. had to hook up the boost control solenoid on the haltech to hit 10
05-21-2012, 02:14 PM
#7
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compounding
WRT
"The strangest part about "Compound" boost is that we still arent sure whats happening. The Utec read 10lbs which is most accurate. But at that then we are just adding the boost and not compounding."
So when your Turbo spools , "are you providing a way to bypass the SC?
Reason I ask is , that since the SC is fundamentally a fixed displacement pump (unlike like a Vortech) , without some form of bypass , the Turbo once spooled, would apparently just pressurize the pipe leading up to the SC scrolls and not much more . Seems the SC would create a huge restriction for the Turbo.
You may see gains by the Turbo pushing the SC and hence gaining back some of the crank loss , but not much more than that.
"The strangest part about "Compound" boost is that we still arent sure whats happening. The Utec read 10lbs which is most accurate. But at that then we are just adding the boost and not compounding."
So when your Turbo spools , "are you providing a way to bypass the SC?
Reason I ask is , that since the SC is fundamentally a fixed displacement pump (unlike like a Vortech) , without some form of bypass , the Turbo once spooled, would apparently just pressurize the pipe leading up to the SC scrolls and not much more . Seems the SC would create a huge restriction for the Turbo.
You may see gains by the Turbo pushing the SC and hence gaining back some of the crank loss , but not much more than that.
Last edited by G3po; 05-21-2012 at 02:15 PM.
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05-21-2012, 06:24 PM
#8
we have already discussed this in this thread. since it would be pressurized then the vortech wouldnt be a restriction. since the actual volume of the air is exactly the same be it pressurized or not. what is changing is the denisty of the air. kinda like a air compressor tank. the volume of air between 0 psi, and 120 psi in that tank is exactly the same because you arnt changing the size of the container, however the 120 psi full tank is far more dense.
op really needs a overlay of just super charger, both, and just turbo on the same dyno to see the difference. also remember at this low a boost level the difference between multiplicative and addition is only about 1 psi. could very well be the ops 4 lb wastegate spring isnt giving him a full 4 lbs, no way to tell without just a turbo only dyno. obviously it is working at least a little though since it looks the like typical powerlab dyno but he isnt running nearly the same boost from the powerlab as most do, and his torque curve looks like a big block chevys. so obviously the supercharger isnt being a restriction here.
a way to bypass the supercharger would completely eliminate any advantages of this system.
op really needs a overlay of just super charger, both, and just turbo on the same dyno to see the difference. also remember at this low a boost level the difference between multiplicative and addition is only about 1 psi. could very well be the ops 4 lb wastegate spring isnt giving him a full 4 lbs, no way to tell without just a turbo only dyno. obviously it is working at least a little though since it looks the like typical powerlab dyno but he isnt running nearly the same boost from the powerlab as most do, and his torque curve looks like a big block chevys. so obviously the supercharger isnt being a restriction here.
a way to bypass the supercharger would completely eliminate any advantages of this system.
WRT
"The strangest part about "Compound" boost is that we still arent sure whats happening. The Utec read 10lbs which is most accurate. But at that then we are just adding the boost and not compounding."
So when your Turbo spools , "are you providing a way to bypass the SC?
Reason I ask is , that since the SC is fundamentally a fixed displacement pump (unlike like a Vortech) , without some form of bypass , the Turbo once spooled, would apparently just pressurize the pipe leading up to the SC scrolls and not much more . Seems the SC would create a huge restriction for the Turbo.
You may see gains by the Turbo pushing the SC and hence gaining back some of the crank loss , but not much more than that.
"The strangest part about "Compound" boost is that we still arent sure whats happening. The Utec read 10lbs which is most accurate. But at that then we are just adding the boost and not compounding."
So when your Turbo spools , "are you providing a way to bypass the SC?
Reason I ask is , that since the SC is fundamentally a fixed displacement pump (unlike like a Vortech) , without some form of bypass , the Turbo once spooled, would apparently just pressurize the pipe leading up to the SC scrolls and not much more . Seems the SC would create a huge restriction for the Turbo.
You may see gains by the Turbo pushing the SC and hence gaining back some of the crank loss , but not much more than that.
Last edited by jerryd87; 05-21-2012 at 06:31 PM.
05-22-2012, 03:22 AM
#9
WRT
"The strangest part about "Compound" boost is that we still arent sure whats happening. The Utec read 10lbs which is most accurate. But at that then we are just adding the boost and not compounding."
So when your Turbo spools , "are you providing a way to bypass the SC?
Reason I ask is , that since the SC is fundamentally a fixed displacement pump (unlike like a Vortech) , without some form of bypass , the Turbo once spooled, would apparently just pressurize the pipe leading up to the SC scrolls and not much more . Seems the SC would create a huge restriction for the Turbo.
You may see gains by the Turbo pushing the SC and hence gaining back some of the crank loss , but not much more than that.
"The strangest part about "Compound" boost is that we still arent sure whats happening. The Utec read 10lbs which is most accurate. But at that then we are just adding the boost and not compounding."
So when your Turbo spools , "are you providing a way to bypass the SC?
Reason I ask is , that since the SC is fundamentally a fixed displacement pump (unlike like a Vortech) , without some form of bypass , the Turbo once spooled, would apparently just pressurize the pipe leading up to the SC scrolls and not much more . Seems the SC would create a huge restriction for the Turbo.
You may see gains by the Turbo pushing the SC and hence gaining back some of the crank loss , but not much more than that.
OP- Your UTEC should pull MAP signal from post supercharger. Your waste gate pressure source should be from the volute of the turbo if possible or at least per-throttle body. Your supercharger bypass valve should be hooked up like normal.
Last edited by Quamen; 05-22-2012 at 03:43 AM.
05-22-2012, 04:03 AM
#10
Looks like a TQ monster 
glad to see the OP followed through on this and shut up some of the haters in the other thread...
I would also like to see two more graphs with just the turbo and just the SC to see the real cumulative affect of the system. The tune looks stupid safe at least from the AFR point of view, have you made any adjusments in timing yet? what are you using to tune again?
glad to see the OP followed through on this and shut up some of the haters in the other thread... I would also like to see two more graphs with just the turbo and just the SC to see the real cumulative affect of the system. The tune looks stupid safe at least from the AFR point of view, have you made any adjusments in timing yet? what are you using to tune again?
05-22-2012, 06:21 AM
#11
If the WG reference is taken post-SC then it would be be negating the compounding effects, but still getting quicker spool down low.
From the looks of this I don't think we're seeing much compounding; TQ takes a dump and HP falls flat.
Last edited by djamps; 05-22-2012 at 06:26 AM.
05-22-2012, 06:21 AM
#12
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I am referencing the boost at the Stillen plenum. This would be a reading of both systems combined as they both pressurize the space. However, I know that at 5500ft elev. I will not get the same amount of boost as at sea level. So im probably only getting 4.5 from my sc and 4 from the turbo.
I will post my old SC dyno here. However, it was on a mustang at different conditions. Also, there is no way i can post a turbo only graph. It would be a pain to take off the sc and put on a stock plenum then put the sc back on again...well a pain right now anyway. Im sick of staring into this engine bay.
I will post my old SC dyno here. However, it was on a mustang at different conditions. Also, there is no way i can post a turbo only graph. It would be a pain to take off the sc and put on a stock plenum then put the sc back on again...well a pain right now anyway. Im sick of staring into this engine bay.
Last edited by TopgunZ; 05-22-2012 at 06:45 AM.
05-22-2012, 06:36 AM
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+1 on this.
boost log (overlay) is really missing here. If the WG reference is taken post-SC then the WG could be negating the compounding effects of the SC.
From the looks of the tq I don't think the SC is doing much if anything up top as TQ takes a dump and HP falls flat.
boost log (overlay) is really missing here. If the WG reference is taken post-SC then the WG could be negating the compounding effects of the SC.
From the looks of the tq I don't think the SC is doing much if anything up top as TQ takes a dump and HP falls flat.
The tune is safe. No timing advancements. It runs rich at WOT. But again, since this was all so new I didnt want to push limits untill i feel safer doing so. That utec isnt really ideal either (learned the hard way). I really need a haltech. I think with that and some more power from the turbo it can really make some power. I think I have only scratched the surface of what kind of power this can make. I mean, I have both setups running the absolute minimum they can. ( at this point
) Again this is just a beta run. I have every intention of exploring this system. That is why I titled this thread "dyno #1"
05-22-2012, 08:22 AM
#17
Uneducated post. Your engine is a positive displacement pump as well. Your theory would dictate that you can't boost an engine either. All positive displacement means is a given volume is moved per revolution and given pressure (always rated at atmospheric). If you increase pressure at the inlet the equation causes volume to increase...
/being a bit nit picky
05-22-2012, 08:34 AM
#18
I agree, The SC just runs out of breath up top as it always has. Even driving it, it would hit hardest around 3k and by 5500 you can feel it has ran out of efficiency and drops off. But then with my turbo only seeing 4lbs that also doesnt have the muscle to keep the #'s up.
I have noticed that some of my customers with aftermarket headers still climn in HP after 6k rpm vs. drop with stockers.
05-22-2012, 11:29 AM
#20
Props to getting this thing together as many have talked about twin charging but haven't seen many. One thing that bothers me is your comparison of boost being related to altitude. Boost is boost whether you are at sea level or on the top of the mountain, sure the air is more dense at sea level with roughly the same temp and humidity but 8psi is 8psi. Also those are some of the same reasons you cant apply SAE correction to boosted cars, I'm sure you are up there in altitude but a 1.23 correction factor is crazy. Either way the system looks like it is working as designed, TQ is instant and power is flat up top.
Last edited by Vince@R/TTuning; 05-22-2012 at 11:35 AM.