You're right. You need injectors and a flash. I am not looking for anything more than 10 or so psi. I'll be fine with this setup.

When I want to build a 700 HP monster, it will be a domestic with more than 6 cylinders.

Max and EJ, I'm glad we were able to work our conversation into something productive. I appreciate the info you were able to find and post. Thanks.

 

So, just to summarize, here is what I am understanding:

MAF - Mass Ariflow Sensor - Measures the mass of air flowing over the sensor. This allows the sensor to compensate for pressure differences, AS LONG AS THE MAXIMUM AIRFLOW IS WITHIN THE RANGE OF THE SENSOR. What this means is that in theory, you could use a MAF for boosted applications if there was one with a high enough range. Even when the range can't fully measure boost, it looks like the MAF would work fine in the Z (for reasons discussed more fully below).

MAP - Manifold Absolute Pressure Sensor (or something like that) - Measures the air pressure inside the manifold. This can't measure airflow (unless you calculate it based on flow characteristics of the system or have a flow meter installed), but could be used to control fuel based on boost level.

So, in closed loop mode, it shouldn't matter whether you have a MAF or a MAP, as long as you are able to measure the airflow properly. A MAF will still properly measure the air, even under boost, until it maxxes out. This is where things get interesting. If the MAF gets maxxed out (ie: not measuring airflow properly), and the engine still stayed in closed loop mode, then you'd have issues because the engine would not be supplying enough fuel. In the Z however, it sounds like this would never happen for the following reasons:
1. When the MAF gets maxxed out the ECU goes into open loop mode and is therefore running off of fuel curves that have been previously tuned during the install. In partial boost situations (if it is possible to sustain a level above the MAF range but below your "tuning" level) you might be quite rich, but you'd be safe.
2. You are typically making boost under WOT anyway, in which case the ECU is already running in open loop mode. Again, no problem as long as your are tuned well.

Really, the only time I can see a problem with a reflashed ECU setup is when the boost level (and therefore the airflow) is not well controlled, and ends up spiking higher than you had tuned for. So, what are the changes of the boost shooting up all of a sudden? In an S/C I'd say the chances are very slim. In a turbo, maybe higher. By using a MAP you could have additional fuel added when a spike in the boost was detected and therefore have an added measure of safety (aside from the fact that you are suddenly making more power than expected).

It sounds like a MAP is only needed for that extra bit of security, and that the MAF would be fine (as shown by those who already are using that method).

-D'oh!

 

Well summarized.

I will add that aux or booster pumps have not worked well on our ATI setups here locally so if you go larger fuel pump (like the Turbo's probably will) keep me posted on how you wire the after market FPR and line to the engine bay etc. Just for future knowledge, I don't think I will need it and neither does the Ultimate Z car who has access to a Consult II to data log.

Thanks to all.

 

no problem......i'm glad this went well too.......the only thing i can say that went wrong is that we hijacked the f*ck out of this thread........LOL.......oh well, conversation is an art.....sometimes it goes all over the frickin place


excellent breakdown D'oh.......you're an engineer aren't you?

 

If the ECU freaks out about maxing out the MAF just make a bigger MAF housing. It's not hard and you can modulate the size to compensate for the bigger injectors and voila, not much fuel correction at part throttle. This is what I do on my STi. As for injectors, ditch the cheesy RC's and get a set of PE 510cc injectors. They should be plenty for 600 HP.

 

Personally I'd go with the new Hydra ECU. It looks a LOT easier to use than AEM and they plan on making a 350Z plug and play version. http://www.hydra-ems.com/

 

So a larger MAF will make the sensor read lower voltages? You do not need a different sensor for this? Then it is an easy fix.

From what I understand, larger injectors did not work well with the TS tune. But I am not sure, that is just what I gathered.

 

I personally think additional injectors are too 1990 for my own taste..though ther is no doubt it would work, adn work quite well. A MAP sensor, connected to the inkta emanifold, would see positive and negative manifold pressur.....at negative (vacuum), the stock injectors fire..at positive (boost), the additional's fire inconjunction with the primaries. it wor, its pretty simple, but it can get very messy, and as I said, is really going old school IMHO.

Personally, I'd fit a standalone (pick your poison), running it parallel to the factory ecu, and ditch the factory MAF altogether.

You're spending 13k on your car in go fast parts, plus whatever else you have into it...I would not trust it to a mailorder ecu. At thye very least, have the ecu flashed by one of the 3 shops in the US that have the TS software. Even then, having seen the "software" myself a few days ago whil my car was being flashed, can say its not an easy setup at all....its completely NOT user freindly, the tables are compeltely mieaningless in terms of their reference points, and TS is little to no help in terms of pointers.....they leave it totally up to the tuner to figure out.

 

Luckily I live in Dallas where one of the 3 elite are. Yay.

 

i'll be making an 8 hour drive to get my reflashing





PE injectors.......$900


Technosquare ECM reflash.........$595


keeping my motor in one piece...........PRICELESS

 

"it wor, its pretty simple, but it can get very messy, and as I said, is really going old school IMHO."

Call me old school then.

I would love to rock some 60lb's and a standalone, but at this point I don't know enough about this motor to make my mind up. It's gonna have to wait a while.

edit; Wow Guru, that EMS looks killer!

 

I think you can get the P.E'S for 769 now.

 

So what does the Technosquare ECM reflash do that allows the car to supply the correct amount of fuel for boosted operation? Technosquare would have to do some serious work on that thing to introduce a function like that. I don't' see that working out.

 

Yeah.... Sorta like Howard Dean I guess. Best to stay stock with the kit don't do like I do.

 

Yeah since it isn't working out right now and 12secZ's car is running so lean that it pings at idle. Also, for some reason he has lower HP than a stock Z now. Weird. It isn't working out for him at all.

 

MPH, we used to have a "sig maker" on my LS1 board that hooked us all up with signatures like yours. Who made yours it is nice. Any sig makers here?

As for my car, the flash can put more fuel to the larger injectors while retarding the timing and sensing the boost. This is the key to success IMO because it has worked on my car with several different Mod's and flashes from 7-11 lbs. I know first hand how a car shouldn't run and the signs etc amnd have guages and watch them daily.

Our stock fuel system is safe up to 9 PSI if flashed correctly and the timing is right. TS went on the record that my flash is a 9 lb flash and they normally don't say anything until they are sure. They had my car the last time for like 9 hours!

Soon Texas will be doing the same with FI it's just a matter of time and learning. I have been coming home from a night job at 34 degrees and after a thourough warm up and normal drive I open it up on a side road just before I get home just because, well I have too hehe it's in my blood.

At 34 degrees and a warmed up car my car runs so perfect I just sort of watch my gauges enjoying the G Forces as it bolts to 9 PSI then I let off, it's like a rush and my EGT has never went over 750 degrees since reflashing at several different boost levels. I just sit in my garage thinking, Did I just do that? It really works well, very well. Next weekend we are gonna pull a plug but it runs puurfect right now. Then February I will track it. Traction will be my biggest hurdle. Not worried too much about that right now, I really want an oil and tranny cooler.

 

that thing is a f*cking monster when the boost comes on

 

Thanks for the sig comp. I made it myself. Not hard really. I'll make a couple if people want them but NOT for everyone.

 

ok max i live here in sac what do i have to do to get a ride?? i have a carbonfiber gsxr 1000 with 165rwhp =0) want to ride??

 

I'll give you a call next week when my schedule stabalizes as you can see it's 0640 and I just walked in the door.

Another Sactown playa huh? Cool, yeah I will take you for some donuts hehe, my brakes are pretty good too we will need them.

Have you joineed the California 350Z Club we are trying to arrange a track meet and Burgers at Hot Rode Cafe it's over off Folsom by the track. We have about 5 Sac/Roseville/El Darodo Members, 10 Bay Are and 20 or so So. Cal.