FI bug has bit, going Vortech
04-14-2016, 10:19 PM
#1
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FI bug has bit, going Vortech
Pulled the trigger on a Greddy 18g kit, figured a bit more power and probably he same reliability as a pissed off NA build.
Will be my first time dabbling in FI other than my OEM turbo cars over the years.
Plans, will obviously the 18g kit, goal is for 425 to 450 WHP reliable for 30 minute track sessions. Already have most of the supporting mods. Going to build my 06 Rev up block that's converted to DE with the Z1 kit https://www.z1motorsports.com/engine...el-p-4265.html compression ratio is undecided at this time. Thinking 9:5 but may just do the common 8:8.
I have a pathfinder cooling mod laying around, would I want to use it or convert to using the HR head gaskets ?
Juke/HR head bolts, figure will be fine for the power level goals
Main studs ? Would I be fine with the standard bolts , or does it need to be upgraded ?
Ditch my Kinetic V+ and NWP throttle body, drop down to OEM with a Motordyne spacer.
The kit I'm getting does not have eng management or injectors. I have 440's in the garage, but am thinking a set of GTR injectors will be a much better fit. Combine that with a return fuel system, just need a couple extra parts to add to the surge tank system I currently am building.
Already have UpRev for tuning, not the best for FI , but should be fine for lower power levels like I want.
Now one factor I'm really unsure of. Valve train, I would think cams would be nice, especially for higher RPM use, but would stock cams and BC springs/Ti retainers be fine for 7500 rpm in an FI setting?
More questions to come, I just feal like wanting to beat up on GTR's and Z06 at he track.
Will be my first time dabbling in FI other than my OEM turbo cars over the years.
Plans, will obviously the 18g kit, goal is for 425 to 450 WHP reliable for 30 minute track sessions. Already have most of the supporting mods. Going to build my 06 Rev up block that's converted to DE with the Z1 kit https://www.z1motorsports.com/engine...el-p-4265.html compression ratio is undecided at this time. Thinking 9:5 but may just do the common 8:8.
I have a pathfinder cooling mod laying around, would I want to use it or convert to using the HR head gaskets ?
Juke/HR head bolts, figure will be fine for the power level goals
Main studs ? Would I be fine with the standard bolts , or does it need to be upgraded ?
Ditch my Kinetic V+ and NWP throttle body, drop down to OEM with a Motordyne spacer.
The kit I'm getting does not have eng management or injectors. I have 440's in the garage, but am thinking a set of GTR injectors will be a much better fit. Combine that with a return fuel system, just need a couple extra parts to add to the surge tank system I currently am building.
Already have UpRev for tuning, not the best for FI , but should be fine for lower power levels like I want.
Now one factor I'm really unsure of. Valve train, I would think cams would be nice, especially for higher RPM use, but would stock cams and BC springs/Ti retainers be fine for 7500 rpm in an FI setting?
More questions to come, I just feal like wanting to beat up on GTR's and Z06 at he track.
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BigBlue (04-15-2016)
04-14-2016, 11:03 PM
#2
Registered User
Pulled the trigger on a Greddy 18g kit, figured a bit more power and probably he same reliability as a pissed off NA build.
Will be my first time dabbling in FI other than my OEM turbo cars over the years.
Plans, will obviously the 18g kit, goal is for 425 to 450 WHP reliable for 30 minute track sessions. Already have most of the supporting mods. Going to build my 06 Rev up block that's converted to DE with the Z1 kit https://www.z1motorsports.com/engine...el-p-4265.html compression ratio is undecided at this time. Thinking 9:5 but may just do the common 8:8.
I have a pathfinder cooling mod laying around, would I want to use it or convert to using the HR head gaskets ?
Juke/HR head bolts, figure will be fine for the power level goals
Main studs ? Would I be fine with the standard bolts , or does it need to be upgraded ?
Ditch my Kinetic V+ and NWP throttle body, drop down to OEM with a Motordyne spacer.
The kit I'm getting does not have eng management or injectors. I have 440's in the garage, but am thinking a set of GTR injectors will be a much better fit. Combine that with a return fuel system, just need a couple extra parts to add to the surge tank system I currently am building.
Already have UpRev for tuning, not the best for FI , but should be fine for lower power levels like I want.
Now one factor I'm really unsure of. Valve train, I would think cams would be nice, especially for higher RPM use, but would stock cams and BC springs/Ti retainers be fine for 7500 rpm in an FI setting?
More questions to come, I just feal like wanting to beat up on GTR's and Z06 at he track.
Will be my first time dabbling in FI other than my OEM turbo cars over the years.
Plans, will obviously the 18g kit, goal is for 425 to 450 WHP reliable for 30 minute track sessions. Already have most of the supporting mods. Going to build my 06 Rev up block that's converted to DE with the Z1 kit https://www.z1motorsports.com/engine...el-p-4265.html compression ratio is undecided at this time. Thinking 9:5 but may just do the common 8:8.
I have a pathfinder cooling mod laying around, would I want to use it or convert to using the HR head gaskets ?
Juke/HR head bolts, figure will be fine for the power level goals
Main studs ? Would I be fine with the standard bolts , or does it need to be upgraded ?
Ditch my Kinetic V+ and NWP throttle body, drop down to OEM with a Motordyne spacer.
The kit I'm getting does not have eng management or injectors. I have 440's in the garage, but am thinking a set of GTR injectors will be a much better fit. Combine that with a return fuel system, just need a couple extra parts to add to the surge tank system I currently am building.
Already have UpRev for tuning, not the best for FI , but should be fine for lower power levels like I want.
Now one factor I'm really unsure of. Valve train, I would think cams would be nice, especially for higher RPM use, but would stock cams and BC springs/Ti retainers be fine for 7500 rpm in an FI setting?
More questions to come, I just feal like wanting to beat up on GTR's and Z06 at he track.
425-450 whp...is quite low 9.5 compression go for it your built motor will last quite some time.
hr head stud bolts and hr main stud bolts yes for 450 whp that is good enough.
osiris uprev for FI in 400 whp is good. you might have to buy an upgraded maf sensor look for hpx or uprev gt whatever fits yourself....
pathfinder mod has nothing to do with hr headgaskets you straight up attach it onto the back end of the block. and cut the pipe on the left side to adapt it to the pipe on passenger side.
ultimate cooling for track - evan's coolant, pathfinder mod, hr headgaskets and or cometic hr head gaskets...mishimoto radiator, oil cooler,
just keep your nwp and kinetix v+ i dont see why you would want to downgrade just leave it be. honestly it wont make that much of a difference.
440s injectors is more than enough for your power level. no need to upgrade unless your looking to do e85 which i suggest that you do. e85 burns cooler and will help preserve the engine for much longer. go for injector dynamics 850cc 350z injectors if looking to tune on e85 instead of pump gas.
you dont need a return fuel system, return fuel system is meant for people going for big power. in your situation all you have to do is put in a aeromotive fuel pump or a walbro 255 in the stock fuel pump assembly.
if your going to get your block built get .020 OS to 96mm. when you or someone else strips it down to a bare block the cylinder walls will have tons dirt and debris and possible rust spots. remachining the block .020 over assures that the cylinder walls look nice and shiny new.
getting headwork done is purely for raising rpm and honestly their is no point to raising rpm for 450 whp. your greddy turbos are really small and they spool up fast around 3.5k rpm. people who get headwork because they want to raise the rpm up because they run massive turbos (800-1000hp crowd) and they want to stay in boost when they shift through each gear. In your situation you will be in boost through every gear no problem. i would not waste my money on getting upgraded cams springs or ti retainers.
stock cams are good for 700hp, and power drops off after 6k rpm from my understanding. the cost of aftermarket cams springs retainers valves and valve stems are expensive and also you have to get extensive machine work done to the heads......and the performance output at your level the price wouldnt justify any real performance gain.
Last edited by Justin100; 04-14-2016 at 11:52 PM.
04-15-2016, 04:14 PM
#6
350Z-holic
iTrader: (13)
Terra - congrats...is this that kit that was for sale here?
a few things I did to make my semi-custom 18g go better were / or should have been ...
I replaced the 2nd OEM coolant pipe(the one that goes over the passenger side head) with a steel braided flex hose. welded a AN-20 fitting to the end of the first OEM hard pipe(one that connects behind the engine) - the passenger side is difficult bc there's so much stuff there, having the coolant hose wiggle anywhere helps quite a bit.
I tapped my upper oil pan for oil scavenge
I used that OEM port after the oil filter to feed the turbos
I'm assuming you're going to rebuild the turbos?
New feed/scavenge lines?
New diaphragms for the waste gates / BOV
I need to find the waste gate extension pipes...the waste gates are essentially locked in unless you want to remove the engine and transmission to get to them - if you source a set of extension pipes will you let me know?
It'd be wise to weld the first aluminum cold pipe off the turbine housing - the couplers soak up precious space between the turbo and the engine compartment wall
add flex hose to your down pipes and/or exhaust...the headers are prone to cracking
looking forward to your build -
a few things I did to make my semi-custom 18g go better were / or should have been ...
I replaced the 2nd OEM coolant pipe(the one that goes over the passenger side head) with a steel braided flex hose. welded a AN-20 fitting to the end of the first OEM hard pipe(one that connects behind the engine) - the passenger side is difficult bc there's so much stuff there, having the coolant hose wiggle anywhere helps quite a bit.
I tapped my upper oil pan for oil scavenge
I used that OEM port after the oil filter to feed the turbos
I'm assuming you're going to rebuild the turbos?
New feed/scavenge lines?
New diaphragms for the waste gates / BOV
I need to find the waste gate extension pipes...the waste gates are essentially locked in unless you want to remove the engine and transmission to get to them - if you source a set of extension pipes will you let me know?
It'd be wise to weld the first aluminum cold pipe off the turbine housing - the couplers soak up precious space between the turbo and the engine compartment wall
add flex hose to your down pipes and/or exhaust...the headers are prone to cracking
looking forward to your build -
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terrasmak (04-16-2016)
04-15-2016, 05:30 PM
#7
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your de block will need to be machined for hr head gaskets make sure you give the machine shop the hr head gaskets and explain it to them.
425-450 whp...is quite low 9.5 compression go for it your built motor will last quite some time.
hr head stud bolts and hr main stud bolts yes for 450 whp that is good enough.
osiris uprev for FI in 400 whp is good. you might have to buy an upgraded maf sensor look for hpx or uprev gt whatever fits yourself....
pathfinder mod has nothing to do with hr headgaskets you straight up attach it onto the back end of the block. and cut the pipe on the left side to adapt it to the pipe on passenger side.
ultimate cooling for track - evan's coolant, pathfinder mod, hr headgaskets and or cometic hr head gaskets...mishimoto radiator, oil cooler,
just keep your nwp and kinetix v+ i dont see why you would want to downgrade just leave it be. honestly it wont make that much of a difference.
440s injectors is more than enough for your power level. no need to upgrade unless your looking to do e85 which i suggest that you do. e85 burns cooler and will help preserve the engine for much longer. go for injector dynamics 850cc 350z injectors if looking to tune on e85 instead of pump gas.
you dont need a return fuel system, return fuel system is meant for people going for big power. in your situation all you have to do is put in a aeromotive fuel pump or a walbro 255 in the stock fuel pump assembly.
if your going to get your block built get .020 OS to 96mm. when you or someone else strips it down to a bare block the cylinder walls will have tons dirt and debris and possible rust spots. remachining the block .020 over assures that the cylinder walls look nice and shiny new.
getting headwork done is purely for raising rpm and honestly their is no point to raising rpm for 450 whp. your greddy turbos are really small and they spool up fast around 3.5k rpm. people who get headwork because they want to raise the rpm up because they run massive turbos (800-1000hp crowd) and they want to stay in boost when they shift through each gear. In your situation you will be in boost through every gear no problem. i would not waste my money on getting upgraded cams springs or ti retainers.
stock cams are good for 700hp, and power drops off after 6k rpm from my understanding. the cost of aftermarket cams springs retainers valves and valve stems are expensive and also you have to get extensive machine work done to the heads......and the performance output at your level the price wouldnt justify any real performance gain.
425-450 whp...is quite low 9.5 compression go for it your built motor will last quite some time.
hr head stud bolts and hr main stud bolts yes for 450 whp that is good enough.
osiris uprev for FI in 400 whp is good. you might have to buy an upgraded maf sensor look for hpx or uprev gt whatever fits yourself....
pathfinder mod has nothing to do with hr headgaskets you straight up attach it onto the back end of the block. and cut the pipe on the left side to adapt it to the pipe on passenger side.
ultimate cooling for track - evan's coolant, pathfinder mod, hr headgaskets and or cometic hr head gaskets...mishimoto radiator, oil cooler,
just keep your nwp and kinetix v+ i dont see why you would want to downgrade just leave it be. honestly it wont make that much of a difference.
440s injectors is more than enough for your power level. no need to upgrade unless your looking to do e85 which i suggest that you do. e85 burns cooler and will help preserve the engine for much longer. go for injector dynamics 850cc 350z injectors if looking to tune on e85 instead of pump gas.
you dont need a return fuel system, return fuel system is meant for people going for big power. in your situation all you have to do is put in a aeromotive fuel pump or a walbro 255 in the stock fuel pump assembly.
if your going to get your block built get .020 OS to 96mm. when you or someone else strips it down to a bare block the cylinder walls will have tons dirt and debris and possible rust spots. remachining the block .020 over assures that the cylinder walls look nice and shiny new.
getting headwork done is purely for raising rpm and honestly their is no point to raising rpm for 450 whp. your greddy turbos are really small and they spool up fast around 3.5k rpm. people who get headwork because they want to raise the rpm up because they run massive turbos (800-1000hp crowd) and they want to stay in boost when they shift through each gear. In your situation you will be in boost through every gear no problem. i would not waste my money on getting upgraded cams springs or ti retainers.
stock cams are good for 700hp, and power drops off after 6k rpm from my understanding. the cost of aftermarket cams springs retainers valves and valve stems are expensive and also you have to get extensive machine work done to the heads......and the performance output at your level the price wouldnt justify any real performance gain.
Figure the NWP throttle body system doesn't help much for FI and can easy be sold off with the plastic kinetic plenum. Then of course my PPE headers will have to go.
HR head gasket and pathfinder mod, I was reading they are not capable ? Are they ?
I need to start researching about the power drop off, figured it would be a bigger issue with NA than forced at the boost/power levels I'm looking at.
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04-15-2016, 08:01 PM
#8
Greddy is oil cooled turbos only, correct? Would not have been my first choice for a road race car but maybe it will be ok... Welcome to the world of FI! You will be fine with stock valvetrain and make good power with those turbos, just keep rpms and boost reasonable (on a stock motor).
EDIT: saw you are building the motor. lower compression = lower risk of detonation, highly recommend the commonly available 8.5:1 or 8.8:1 compression pistons for racing. Definitely choose Carillo over Eagle rods, but not their tapered A beam. The strongest rod will be the straight H beam. If you are on a budget, I would choose the Eagle H beams over the Carillo A or Super A (and limit rwhp to under 800; doesn't look like you're thinking of anything near this power level; the 18Gs max out at 700s anyway).
EDIT: saw you are building the motor. lower compression = lower risk of detonation, highly recommend the commonly available 8.5:1 or 8.8:1 compression pistons for racing. Definitely choose Carillo over Eagle rods, but not their tapered A beam. The strongest rod will be the straight H beam. If you are on a budget, I would choose the Eagle H beams over the Carillo A or Super A (and limit rwhp to under 800; doesn't look like you're thinking of anything near this power level; the 18Gs max out at 700s anyway).
Last edited by rcdash; 04-16-2016 at 08:51 AM.
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terrasmak (04-16-2016)
04-15-2016, 11:17 PM
#10
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Terra - congrats...is this that kit that was for sale here?
a few things I did to make my semi-custom 18g go better were / or should have been ...
I replaced the 2nd OEM coolant pipe(the one that goes over the passenger side head) with a steel braided flex hose. welded a AN-20 fitting to the end of the first OEM hard pipe(one that connects behind the engine) - the passenger side is difficult bc there's so much stuff there, having the coolant hose wiggle anywhere helps quite a bit.
I tapped my upper oil pan for oil scavenge
I used that OEM port after the oil filter to feed the turbos
I'm assuming you're going to rebuild the turbos?
New feed/scavenge lines?
New diaphragms for the waste gates / BOV
I need to find the waste gate extension pipes...the waste gates are essentially locked in unless you want to remove the engine and transmission to get to them - if you source a set of extension pipes will you let me know?
It'd be wise to weld the first aluminum cold pipe off the turbine housing - the couplers soak up precious space between the turbo and the engine compartment wall
add flex hose to your down pipes and/or exhaust...the headers are prone to cracking
looking forward to your build -
a few things I did to make my semi-custom 18g go better were / or should have been ...
I replaced the 2nd OEM coolant pipe(the one that goes over the passenger side head) with a steel braided flex hose. welded a AN-20 fitting to the end of the first OEM hard pipe(one that connects behind the engine) - the passenger side is difficult bc there's so much stuff there, having the coolant hose wiggle anywhere helps quite a bit.
I tapped my upper oil pan for oil scavenge
I used that OEM port after the oil filter to feed the turbos
I'm assuming you're going to rebuild the turbos?
New feed/scavenge lines?
New diaphragms for the waste gates / BOV
I need to find the waste gate extension pipes...the waste gates are essentially locked in unless you want to remove the engine and transmission to get to them - if you source a set of extension pipes will you let me know?
It'd be wise to weld the first aluminum cold pipe off the turbine housing - the couplers soak up precious space between the turbo and the engine compartment wall
add flex hose to your down pipes and/or exhaust...the headers are prone to cracking
looking forward to your build -
OEM cooling line, like the one that connects to the upper cooling hose?
Oil return lines, was planning on sourcing an APS oil pan. If I do it into the upper oil pan it would be simple during the engine rebuild
Both turbo's will be rebuilt and all lines will be evaluated prior to install.
New diaphragms for wastegate and blowoff ? Is that needed. ? I know I would be changing the wastegate springs, I don't plan to run a boost controller. Should I run one?
Wastegate extension pipes, no idea , I have little experience with this kit. Will have a pic included in this post.
Welding cold pipes, will need to learn more about this
Add a flex pipe, eazy. I'm getting Megan test pipes with the kit. Will probably ditch them for Berk non resonated and car probably get Brian to set that up before he ships them to me.
The manifold is cracked already, I have the option to buy a new set of manifold from him. The plan is to evaluate the crack for repair, if my welder doesn't like it I will grab the new manifolds from him. I have Z1 motor mounts and torque damper, hopefully it can prevent another crack.
Also debating, I have a brand new Excedy organic clutch in the car. Ditch it for something stronger. In the air, but I have a lot of building ahead of me.
04-16-2016, 08:24 AM
#11
350Z-holic
iTrader: (13)
I don't know about a boost controller? Is there a function in Osiris to run it? I wouldnt think you need one for your power goals.
See post #19, second photo from the bottom, see the pipe that runs between the header and the waste gate?
https://my350z.com/forum/nismo-370z/...-goodness.html
others have welded the first pipe off the blower...
Last edited by bealljk; 04-16-2016 at 08:28 AM.
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terrasmak (04-16-2016)
04-16-2016, 07:24 PM
#12
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Greddy is oil cooled turbos only, correct? Would not have been my first choice for a road race car but maybe it will be ok... Welcome to the world of FI! You will be fine with stock valvetrain and make good power with those turbos, just keep rpms and boost reasonable (on a stock motor).
EDIT: saw you are building the motor. lower compression = lower risk of detonation, highly recommend the commonly available 8.5:1 or 8.8:1 compression pistons for racing. Definitely choose Carillo over Eagle rods, but not their tapered A beam. The strongest rod will be the straight H beam. If you are on a budget, I would choose the Eagle H beams over the Carillo A or Super A (and limit rwhp to under 800; doesn't look like you're thinking of anything near this power level; the 18Gs max out at 700s anyway).
EDIT: saw you are building the motor. lower compression = lower risk of detonation, highly recommend the commonly available 8.5:1 or 8.8:1 compression pistons for racing. Definitely choose Carillo over Eagle rods, but not their tapered A beam. The strongest rod will be the straight H beam. If you are on a budget, I would choose the Eagle H beams over the Carillo A or Super A (and limit rwhp to under 800; doesn't look like you're thinking of anything near this power level; the 18Gs max out at 700s anyway).
04-17-2016, 01:19 AM
#13
Registered User
buy a racing thermostat for your car it is designed to open up at a lower temperature rating so its consistently cooling your engine from my understanding.
get your turbo manifolds ceramic coated and also wrap it in heat coated wrap.
wrap both of your turbo with turbo blankets on the hot side this will significally decrease heat inside your engine bay especially since greddy turbos are tucked right inside your engine bay.
Last edited by Justin100; 04-17-2016 at 01:21 AM.
04-17-2016, 08:33 AM
#15
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Now about the drop off, if I'm only using it as let's say 8 to 10 psi and the kit can handle a lot more. Shouldn't it easily be able to hold close to that all the way to a 7500 rpm redline ? If so , it shouldn't sharply drop off in power after 6k.
04-17-2016, 09:16 AM
#16
350Z-holic
iTrader: (13)
I agree with this but there is such little room between the blowers and the engine bay wall that it may not be feasible...I bought them and scrapped them bc of clearance issues -
04-17-2016, 08:25 PM
#17
Registered User
you can remove the hot side of the turbo housing shell and have it ceramic coated if you have clearance problems putting on turbo blankets
04-17-2016, 08:26 PM
#18
Registered User
I have a rev up pump already for this build. I'm actually building my rev up block that's converted to non-rev. Planning on BC springs with Ti retainers.
Now about the drop off, if I'm only using it as let's say 8 to 10 psi and the kit can handle a lot more. Shouldn't it easily be able to hold close to that all the way to a 7500 rpm redline ? If so , it shouldn't sharply drop off in power after 6k.
Now about the drop off, if I'm only using it as let's say 8 to 10 psi and the kit can handle a lot more. Shouldn't it easily be able to hold close to that all the way to a 7500 rpm redline ? If so , it shouldn't sharply drop off in power after 6k.
i dont think you'll see a sharp increase in performance from 7200 rpm to 7500 rpm....imo upgrading is very costly for headwork....
you do realize that once you hit full boost in each gear that you will be generating the full 450whp right? if you have it set at a specific psi its not going to gain anymore power.
look at this dyno chart this z was generating 700whp on a upgraded greddy tt kit for his 350z.
this should be a good indication that the greddy twin turbos are more for low and mid range power not top end power....you can see the power curve dropping pretty steeply at the top end.
your dyno chart will look very similar to this
Last edited by Justin100; 04-17-2016 at 08:33 PM.
04-18-2016, 05:58 AM
#20
Off topic but i had read that turbo blankets help to prematurely age them as they do not dissipate heat properly. Now for guys with top mounted turbos this may not be such a big deal if engine bay heat is a concern and they can be easily swapped out. But for boosted Z's running twins this could get annoying quick.