F/I strains engine?
06-15-2016, 10:43 AM
#21
Making the same HP/TQ I don't see a difference at all...
Aside from the fact N/A similar to a super charger and the power is linier out right. Where a turbo has to spool and is slightly more aggressive in some applications. Im not turbo yoda by ANY MEANS... Im just going about this via my experience, knowledge and general sense I have in both the automotive industry, engineering and design that I went and took school for along side my actual experience with both working on cars and designing parts and materials.
But my understanding is PSI is PSI, stress from the 2 making the same power should be about the same if done properly. The delivery might be different but that's about all as far as I can see. Also F/I is forced. Where N/A is "natural". So if the set up for the turbo isn't correct the turbo will still force the air in, where the fuel or rest will not be ready or if turned beyond the cars limits....
But if both set up properly. Both should effect the motor the same. Basically any and all power mods will stress out the engine just due to it now working harder. Which is why modified cars hardly last as long as stock. OEM is king for a reason if your looking for a life long beater. They built and engineered these things to operate and function as they are built. Once we change that that's on us. Which is why even OEM cars with factory turbos are different motors period than a N/A motor of the same car from the same mfg.
Due to the added stresses and power they beef the motors up or change the design entirely.
Aside from the fact N/A similar to a super charger and the power is linier out right. Where a turbo has to spool and is slightly more aggressive in some applications. Im not turbo yoda by ANY MEANS... Im just going about this via my experience, knowledge and general sense I have in both the automotive industry, engineering and design that I went and took school for along side my actual experience with both working on cars and designing parts and materials.
But my understanding is PSI is PSI, stress from the 2 making the same power should be about the same if done properly. The delivery might be different but that's about all as far as I can see. Also F/I is forced. Where N/A is "natural". So if the set up for the turbo isn't correct the turbo will still force the air in, where the fuel or rest will not be ready or if turned beyond the cars limits....
But if both set up properly. Both should effect the motor the same. Basically any and all power mods will stress out the engine just due to it now working harder. Which is why modified cars hardly last as long as stock. OEM is king for a reason if your looking for a life long beater. They built and engineered these things to operate and function as they are built. Once we change that that's on us. Which is why even OEM cars with factory turbos are different motors period than a N/A motor of the same car from the same mfg.
Due to the added stresses and power they beef the motors up or change the design entirely.
Last edited by CK_32; 06-15-2016 at 10:48 AM.
06-15-2016, 10:48 AM
#22
Registered User
Thread Starter
Making the same HP/TQ I don't see a difference at all...
Aside from the fact N/A similar to a super charger is linier out right. Where a turbo has to spool. Im not turbo yoda by ANY MEANS...
But my understanding is PSI is PSI, stress from the 2 making the same power should be about the same if done properly. The delivery might be different but that's about all as far as I can see. Also F/I is forced. Where N/A is "natural". So if the set up for the turbo isn't correct the turbo will still force the air in, where the fuel or rest will not be ready or if turned beyond the cars limits....
But if both set up properly. Both should effect the motor the same. Basically any and all power mods will stress out the engine just due to it now working harder. Which is why modified cars hardly last as long as stock. OEM is king for a reason if your looking for a life long beater. They built and engineered these things to operate and function as they are built. Once we change that that's on us. Which is why even OEM cars with factory turbos are different motors period than a N/A motor of the same car from the same mfg.
Due to the added stresses and power they beef the motors up or change the design entirely.
Aside from the fact N/A similar to a super charger is linier out right. Where a turbo has to spool. Im not turbo yoda by ANY MEANS...
But my understanding is PSI is PSI, stress from the 2 making the same power should be about the same if done properly. The delivery might be different but that's about all as far as I can see. Also F/I is forced. Where N/A is "natural". So if the set up for the turbo isn't correct the turbo will still force the air in, where the fuel or rest will not be ready or if turned beyond the cars limits....
But if both set up properly. Both should effect the motor the same. Basically any and all power mods will stress out the engine just due to it now working harder. Which is why modified cars hardly last as long as stock. OEM is king for a reason if your looking for a life long beater. They built and engineered these things to operate and function as they are built. Once we change that that's on us. Which is why even OEM cars with factory turbos are different motors period than a N/A motor of the same car from the same mfg.
Due to the added stresses and power they beef the motors up or change the design entirely.
Yea anything beyond oem is consider stressing the engine. Infact driving at different elevation can stress the engine.
My original question was if both car are built is force more stressed than NA or no? Im not talking mild exhaust work, but im talking completely stripping the engine and changing the compression.
06-15-2016, 10:52 AM
#23
hatersgonnahate
iTrader: (162)
Making the same HP/TQ I don't see a difference at all...
Aside from the fact N/A similar to a super charger is linier out right. Where a turbo has to spool. Im not turbo yoda by ANY MEANS...
But my understanding is PSI is PSI, stress from the 2 making the same power should be about the same if done properly. The delivery might be different but that's about all as far as I can see. Also F/I is forced. Where N/A is "natural". So if the set up for the turbo isn't correct the turbo will still force the air in, where the fuel or rest will not be ready or if turned beyond the cars limits....
But if both set up properly. Both should effect the motor the same. Basically any and all power mods will stress out the engine just due to it now working harder. Which is why modified cars hardly last as long as stock. OEM is king for a reason if your looking for a life long beater. They built and engineered these things to operate and function as they are built. Once we change that that's on us. Which is why even OEM cars with factory turbos are different motors period than a N/A motor of the same car from the same mfg.
Due to the added stresses and power they beef the motors up or change the design entirely.
Aside from the fact N/A similar to a super charger is linier out right. Where a turbo has to spool. Im not turbo yoda by ANY MEANS...
But my understanding is PSI is PSI, stress from the 2 making the same power should be about the same if done properly. The delivery might be different but that's about all as far as I can see. Also F/I is forced. Where N/A is "natural". So if the set up for the turbo isn't correct the turbo will still force the air in, where the fuel or rest will not be ready or if turned beyond the cars limits....
But if both set up properly. Both should effect the motor the same. Basically any and all power mods will stress out the engine just due to it now working harder. Which is why modified cars hardly last as long as stock. OEM is king for a reason if your looking for a life long beater. They built and engineered these things to operate and function as they are built. Once we change that that's on us. Which is why even OEM cars with factory turbos are different motors period than a N/A motor of the same car from the same mfg.
Due to the added stresses and power they beef the motors up or change the design entirely.
psi on one setup is not the same on another...cfm differs
na does not make the same power curve at fi.
stop focusing on peak numbers
higher cylinder pressure = more stress
yall are going full retard
that video of the na motor making good whp was reving to 9k..making 200wtq most of the way past 6000rpm. WEAK by fi standards.
oems make na variant motors that are weaker than the fi counterparts.
there is a reason you dont toss a turbo on a DE and make 600whp for long.
400whp na is not the same as 400whp turbo.
06-15-2016, 10:56 AM
#24
Registered User
Thread Starter
psi on one setup is not the same on another...cfm differs
na does not make the same power curve at fi.
stop focusing on peak numbers
higher cylinder pressure = more stress
yall are going full retard
that video of the na motor making good whp was reving to 9k..making 200wtq most of the way past 6000rpm. WEAK by fi standards.
oems make na variant motors that are weaker than the fi counterparts.
there is a reason you dont toss a turbo on a DE and make 600whp for long.
400whp na is not the same as 400whp turbo.
na does not make the same power curve at fi.
stop focusing on peak numbers
higher cylinder pressure = more stress
yall are going full retard
that video of the na motor making good whp was reving to 9k..making 200wtq most of the way past 6000rpm. WEAK by fi standards.
oems make na variant motors that are weaker than the fi counterparts.
there is a reason you dont toss a turbo on a DE and make 600whp for long.
400whp na is not the same as 400whp turbo.
06-15-2016, 11:00 AM
#26
Oh in that case then I think no, and agree with you. The forces should be about the same.
I just say FI is more stressful because most of the time F/I applications on builds tend to be much more drastic than a N/A on most builds. But equal to equal forces/power I think they wont notice a difference and both be as destructive/not be as the other.
Which is why I said technically both of them can be right, yet both can be wrong depending on the technicality and scenario you decide to put it in.
But again turbo's do have a more forceful type of delivery than a super charger and N/A set up. So that could be something with could factor in as well but I am not too familiar with that to speak that aspect, that would be much better answered by someone who is much more familiar with turbos and that type of break down. That's well beyond my scope of turbo / NA knowledge.
I just say FI is more stressful because most of the time F/I applications on builds tend to be much more drastic than a N/A on most builds. But equal to equal forces/power I think they wont notice a difference and both be as destructive/not be as the other.
Which is why I said technically both of them can be right, yet both can be wrong depending on the technicality and scenario you decide to put it in.
But again turbo's do have a more forceful type of delivery than a super charger and N/A set up. So that could be something with could factor in as well but I am not too familiar with that to speak that aspect, that would be much better answered by someone who is much more familiar with turbos and that type of break down. That's well beyond my scope of turbo / NA knowledge.
06-15-2016, 11:03 AM
#27
psi on one setup is not the same on another...cfm differs
na does not make the same power curve at fi.
stop focusing on peak numbers
higher cylinder pressure = more stress
yall are going full retard
that video of the na motor making good whp was reving to 9k..making 200wtq most of the way past 6000rpm. WEAK by fi standards.
oems make na variant motors that are weaker than the fi counterparts.
there is a reason you dont toss a turbo on a DE and make 600whp for long.
400whp na is not the same as 400whp turbo.
na does not make the same power curve at fi.
stop focusing on peak numbers
higher cylinder pressure = more stress
yall are going full retard
that video of the na motor making good whp was reving to 9k..making 200wtq most of the way past 6000rpm. WEAK by fi standards.
oems make na variant motors that are weaker than the fi counterparts.
there is a reason you dont toss a turbo on a DE and make 600whp for long.
400whp na is not the same as 400whp turbo.
See and this is that deliver system Im talking about. To me I cant answer that. That's gatta be answered by someone else. I have not had enough experience/knowledge in that part to say anything.
My knowledge/experience is mostly in the material and motor operation and limitation in general as a material. Not forces/physics or what ever that would fall into.
I bow out from here. Popcorn time
06-15-2016, 11:03 AM
#28
Registered User
Thread Starter
Oh in that case then I think no, and agree with you. The forces should be about the same.
I just say FI is more stressful because most of the time F/I applications on builds tend to be much more drastic than a N/A on most builds. But equal to equal forces/power I think they wont notice a difference and both be as destructive/not be as the other.
Which is why I said technically both of them can be right, yet both can be wrong depending on the technicality and scenario you decide to put it in.
But again turbo's do have a more forceful type of delivery than a super charger and N/A set up. So that could be something with could factor in as well but I am not too familiar with that to speak that aspect, that would be much better answered by someone who is much more familiar with turbos and that type of break down. That's well beyond my scope of turbo / NA knowledge.
I just say FI is more stressful because most of the time F/I applications on builds tend to be much more drastic than a N/A on most builds. But equal to equal forces/power I think they wont notice a difference and both be as destructive/not be as the other.
Which is why I said technically both of them can be right, yet both can be wrong depending on the technicality and scenario you decide to put it in.
But again turbo's do have a more forceful type of delivery than a super charger and N/A set up. So that could be something with could factor in as well but I am not too familiar with that to speak that aspect, that would be much better answered by someone who is much more familiar with turbos and that type of break down. That's well beyond my scope of turbo / NA knowledge.
06-15-2016, 11:04 AM
#29
hatersgonnahate
iTrader: (162)
just stop. FFS.
Two types of SC are common. A centrifugal type willl make boost and power to redline...even while reving to 9k. A twin screw is more like a turbo. The effort to drive a SC = stress on the motor.
Read this...again...
Higher Cylinder Pressure = More Stress
06-15-2016, 11:05 AM
#30
Registered User
Thread Starter
Doesnt higher cylinder pressure comes from more air entering the system?
06-15-2016, 11:07 AM
#31
hatersgonnahate
iTrader: (162)
if you had two motors that made the same whp, same curve and one was NA and the other was FI...the FI would be under more stress since it would have lower displacement, poor timing, a very retarded ignition to make the same power. Yet...you would have higher cylinder wall pressures...for no gain.
06-15-2016, 11:10 AM
#32
Registered User
Thread Starter
if you had two motors that made the same whp, same curve and one was NA and the other was FI...the FI would be under more stress since it would have lower displacement, poor timing, a very retarded ignition to make the same power. Yet...you would have higher cylinder wall pressures...for no gain.
Now same question but with elevation as a factor. Would the fi still be more stressed since we are at a higher elevation? Not trying to grasp straws just trying to understand it all. If the NA is working harder at higher elevation. Wouldnt the advantage be in favor of the FI now? (All things equal)
06-15-2016, 11:10 AM
#33
N/A 350tq at 6krpm is going to be less stressful than 350tq FI at 3krpm.
I would assume half the rpm(less velocity) to create the same power.
The slower the engine is moving the more stress to that engine because that power is being spread out over less rotations
I would assume half the rpm(less velocity) to create the same power.
The slower the engine is moving the more stress to that engine because that power is being spread out over less rotations
06-15-2016, 11:12 AM
#34
Registered User
Thread Starter
Makes sense since you usually downshift on a hill, but what if 350tq at 6k rpm for both applications?
06-15-2016, 11:18 AM
#35
if you had two motors that made the same whp, same curve and one was NA and the other was FI...the FI would be under more stress since it would have lower displacement, poor timing, a very retarded ignition to make the same power. Yet...you would have higher cylinder wall pressures...for no gain.
06-15-2016, 11:24 AM
#36
Registered User
Thread Starter
Not to drag this on or anything, just curious, since it hasnt been answer yet.
Can an engine tell if the difference between air its being sucked in (NA) and air that is being forced in (FI)?
Can an engine tell if the difference between air its being sucked in (NA) and air that is being forced in (FI)?
06-15-2016, 11:27 AM
#37
hatersgonnahate
iTrader: (162)
FI engine will make relatively the same power even as altitude changes. The altitude means the pressure outside is less...14.7psi at sea level i believe. Thats why NA are dogs in the mountains since less pressure outside to push air into the cylinders.
(while out of boost the FI engine will be down a bit on power as well)
(while out of boost the FI engine will be down a bit on power as well)
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CK_32 (06-15-2016)
06-15-2016, 11:35 AM
#40
When you add extra HP to an engine, whether it's NA or FI, design parameters may be exceeded, and things may break. There are always some extra margins built into any design, to promote longevity and reliability, but when they're exceeded . . .
Why is this not obvious to you? Try breaking loose a bolt torgued to 150 lb-ft with a 1/4" drive ratchet, rather than a breaker bar, and you'll snap that ratchet like a twig.