NBM99Firehawk

I'm considering buying a 04 G35 Coupe. I've been looking over the F/I systems available and it boggles my mind on why Stillen went with an Eaton over say a Whipple. Why did they even do that? I'm thinking emissions but a twin screw would yield so many better gains. Welp.. Looks like i'm going with a Twin Turbo setup if i buy her.

7 eleven

The same reason Stillen (and the rest of the world) does anything, money. Twin Screws are pretty hard and expensive to make. For the their hp targets it's alot cheaper for Stillen to use the Eatons. A couple people have bugged Kennbell about a Twin screw kit for the Z/G they said no thanks. Oh well Twin turbos it is.
Gary

RIVET

The Whipple and the Eaton are both twisted lobe( twin screw is a catch phrase) superchargers based on the early GMC truck superchargers which in turn were derived from the Roots/Dresser air pump. Hence the Whipple and Eaton are both roots based designs with the major difference being the the twisted lobes which increase efficiency and lower noise by eliminating the the pulsing inherent in early straight lobe roots superchargers. Interestingly, KenneBell uses Mercedes as an example of manufacturesrs who have seen the advantages of the "twin screw" design and , yep Mercedes only uses Eaton superchargers on their cars, go figure.

DaveO

More Supercharger Theory

Three Basic Types of Superchargers

• Roots: positive displacement units, which means every revolution of the blower pumps out a fixed volume of air, regardless of the blower's rpm. Result is that boost comes on early. Most application produce full boost at 2000-2500rpm. Boost can be altered by changing pulley size. It is best to under-drive a larger unit than to overdrive a smaller one. Manufacturers include Eaton, B&M.

• Centrifugal: Most popular type for fuel injected engines. Provides airflow proportional to blower rpm, thus full boost comes with high rpm. Manufacturers include API, Paxton, Vortech.

• Twin-screw: positive displacement, similar to roots. Differences: uses twin screws instead of lobed rotors to compress air, works best when overdriven. Manufacturer: Whipple Industries.

How is the Eaton supercharger different? It's essentially a Roots blower, with one substantial design wrinkle: Each rotor has been twisted 60 degrees to form a helix. The two counter rotating rotors have three lobes, which intermesh during operation. These twisted rotors, along with specially designed inlet and outlet port geometry, help to reduce pressure variations resulting in a smooth discharge of air and a low level of noise during operation.


DaveO

zparts

You ever try to get any customer service from Whipple?
HA!

rgreene

I thought the Stillen kit was a twin screw, the DW kit is gonna be an Eaton... no?

jawbone

while I've worked with both eaton and lysholm style chargers for around 10 yrs, the nod goes to eaton for reliabilty. I've seen countless twin screw chargers sieze, while eatons will go 100,000 miles with very few (if any) problems. Stillen probably felt all that "twin screw efficiency" was not best served from the back of a tow truck.....so they went eaton

BLOBYU

Twin screws are pretty hard and expensive to make...

Please, in order to keep this forum informative, read up on the technology and do NOT miss-inform if you don't know yourself. What you wrote is completely and utterly false.

Self-fulfillment is not for the betterment of everyone else here trying to learn.

Here's a quick snap shot beyond my previous post you can find:

They both still use ROTOR..... SCREWS..... WHAT EVER YOU WOULD LIKE TO CALL THEM!

-Twin Screw is old lysholm technology. 3-lobe male & 5-lobe female screw.

-Eaton hybrid is (2) 3-lobe twisted (60-Degree) helixes.

Eaton is a hybrid of twin screw that everyone else in the world uses more frequently. It incedentally only uses 1/3 of 1-HP at 60mph cruising. Volumetric efficiency is 98%. Adiabatic loss is much better than your "more expensive screw system".

Cheer up, you'll get it.

BLOBYU

DaveO is essentially correct, but the site that info was copied from is still a bit wrong. The only difference (as far as the way they pump the air) between the screws/rotors in the whipple and the eaton units is the design of the screws/rotors:

----Eaton uses (2) 3 lobe rotors.
----Whipple uses (1) 3-lobe rotor and (1) 5-lobe rotor.

They are both screws. They are both rotors. One is a hybrid of the other. The eaton unit is much more efficient and reliable. Which is why they are the most popular version distributed around this globe.

As far as describing the roots in DaveO's post: You can change the boost on both (roots/twin screw) by changing the pulley.

The breakdown should be as follows:

Supercharger Styles:

1) Roots:
Twin Screw
Eaton

2) Centrifugal:

To break them out into 3 separate categories is not entirely accurate.

NOSty

BLOBYU

Twin screws are pretty hard and expensive to make...

Please, in order to keep this forum informative, read up on the technology and do NOT miss-inform if you don't know yourself. What you wrote is completely and utterly false.

Self-fulfillment is not for the betterment of everyone else here trying to learn.

Here's a quick snap shot beyond my previous post you can find:

They both still use ROTOR..... SCREWS..... WHAT EVER YOU WOULD LIKE TO CALL THEM!

-Twin Screw is old lysholm technology. 3-lobe male & 5-lobe female screw.

-Eaton hybrid is (2) 3-lobe twisted (60-Degree) helixes.

Eaton is a hybrid of twin screw that everyone else in the world uses more frequently. It incedentally only uses 1/3 of 1-HP at 60mph cruising. Volumetric efficiency is 98%. Adiabatic loss is much better than your "more expensive screw system".

Cheer up, you'll get it.

7 eleven

Great another thread down the drain. What in the world are you talking about? Nothing I wrote was incorrect.

You simply restated what I had said to illustrate that I was wrong. People like you are what make's it hard for others to learn.

If you can find one person or printed book that backs up your OUTRAGEOUS 98% efficiency for the Eaton "Roots" Blower We'd all like to see it, in fact Eaton would love to also. The Eaton design is a update of the Roots blower that happened in the late 70's early 80's.

The Twin Screw "auto rotor" blower is completely different. The main reason is due to the compression of the air occurs in the blower unlike the "Root" where it happens at the outlet of the blower.

Here’s some links to educate yourself:
http://www.kennebell.net/techinfo/ge...resofthekb.pdf

http://www.kennebell.net/techinfo/ge...romcatalog.pdf

This one would be perfect for you:
http://www.kennebell.net/techinfo/ge...erchargers.pdf

And a few books for you to read

"Supercharging"
By Corky bell

"Forced induction performance tuning a practical guide to supercharging and turbocharging"
By A. Graham Bell

If you still don't understand how these work then, at that time you may contact me and I will explain it to you.
Gary

7 eleven

BLOBYU, Here's the link to EATON's own site let me know when you find the claims of 98%. I'm waiting....
Gary

http://www.automotive.eaton.com/prod...hargers.html:D

NBM99Firehawk

I'm not even going to touch some of the Info that was posted. Just read this entire article. KB twin Screw Vs. Stock eaton on an 03 Cobra. Whoever thinks the Eaton is better should be ready for a shock.

http://www.kennebell.net/media/articles/SNAKEBITE.pdf

RIVET

Eaton, Whipple and Kenne-Bell all license this design from the lysholm company, in fact if you look at the website(http://www.lysholm.se) they state Eaton as a licensee and show about 8 friggin whipple systems on the gallery page . They are all essentially the same product with small variations, the Eaton being the most reliable.

7 eleven

I have to say that at times it is quite painful to read these posts. What you state as "PROOF" for your ideas was mis read by you. Here is the quote from the web site:

They ARE NOT a licensee. If you read it, it says they both make parts for the OEM market. How is that a licensee?

Whipple is a Twin screw that was designed by Lysholm.

Kennebell uses the Autorotor design of twin screw.

I will also ask you to read the links and books posted above before you make anymore posts on this subject. All of this information is on the web and free, search for it before you post.
Gary

7 eleven

The point of this discussion is if a true "twin screw" is better that the Eaton style "Roots". They are not the same. Your input did nothing to resolve the question. let's keep it on subject.
Thank you.
Gary

RIVET

The question was "I've been looking over the F/I systems available and it boggles my mind on why Stillen went with an Eaton over say a Whipple. " The Eaton and the Whipple use the same exact technology. see these quotes from the Lysholm website. "Lysholm Technologies is serving the market direct or through its licensee Eaton Corporation. with viable solutions and products for supercharging engines for increased performance, low fuel consumption and reduced emissions." Also, "If you would like to know more about the possibilities you are welcome to contact us or Whipple Industries Inc. in Fresno, USA, our exclusive partner for the aftermarket in America. " YOU need to get your facts straight.

NBM99Firehawk

I'd rather max power over 100K mile reliability. I mean who actually has a supercharger for 100K miles anyway.

7 eleven

You figured out that the Whipple is a "Twin screw". By the way is not a ROOTS blower like the one made by Eaton.

It's quite obvious that you haven't taken the time to read any of the links. I'm quite dumbfounded by your lack of ability to learn.
Eaton does have a license to produce "twin screw" superchargers BUT they do not. They produce the "ROOTS' style.

Please call Eatons Automotive engineering department:

Engine Air Management Operations
Marshall, Michigan
Direct: (269) 781-0200
Fax: (269) 781-0296
Web Site: http://www.automotive.eaton.com
e-Mail: EngineAirManagementSales@eaton.com

Maybe they will be able to explain to to you in a manner you will be able to understand.
Gary

BLOBYU

How does an Eaton supercharger work? A supercharger is a positive displacement pump. Its purpose is to increase air pressure and density in the intake manifold. It does this by pumping more air than the engine would use without a supercharger. The supercharger is matched to the engine by its displacement and belt ratio, and can provide excess airflow at any engine speed. This concentrated charge of air provided by the supercharger results in a more powerful combustion stroke in the engine's cylinders, resulting in improved performance over non-supercharged vehicles.

How did Eaton become involved in supercharging? In 1949, Eaton toyed with a helical rotor supercharger and even built a 75-cubic inch displacement prototype. This supercharger was "temporarily" set aside since improved performance was achieved through larger displacement engines. The late 70's spurred new interest in supercharging, since gasoline prices were driven up due to the energy crisis. Eaton continued to improve its design and addressed issues such as noise and durability. It was through these many design improvements, and an eye toward manufacturing, that allowed Eaton to begin working with Ford Motor Company on the 3.8L engine in 1984. Vehicle demonstrations, durability and noise concerns were refined, as well as a cost effective manufacturing process, which allowed the Eaton supercharger to be installed on the first production supercharged vehicle since 1957. The 1989 Ford Thunderbird SC was awarded the Motor Trend Car of the Year award. In addition, three engineers were also recognized for their work on the supercharger having been awarded the Society of Automotive Engineer's first Henry Ford II Award for Engineering Excellence.

The roots supercharger has been around for a long time, how is the Eaton supercharger different? The Eaton supercharger is essentially a Roots blower pump, with one substantial design wrinkle; each rotor has been twisted 60 degrees to form a helix. The two counter rotating rotors have three lobes, which intermesh during operation. These twisted rotors, along with specially designed inlet and outlet port geometry, help to reduce pressure variations resulting in a smooth discharge of air and a low level of noise during operation. This arrangement also improves efficiency over traditional Roots superchargers. With helical rotors and an axial inlet the Eaton supercharger can be spun to up to 14,000 rpm, thereby reducing package size.

How is an Eaton supercharger different from a turbocharger? A supercharger is connected directly to the crankshaft by a belt unlike a turbocharger which is driven by exhaust gases. An Eaton supercharger provides improved horsepower and torque, at lower engine rpm's, by pumping extra air into the engine in direct relationship to crankshaft speed. The positive connection yields instant response, in contrast to turbochargers, which must overcome inertia and spin up to speed as the flow of exhaust gas increases. The supercharger is a way to get around "turbo lag". The lubrication system also differs, in that, the supercharger is self-contained whereas the turbocharger requires engine oil.

How long has Eaton been manufacturing superchargers? Production for Ford Motor Company began in 1989, and was soon followed in 1992 by General Motors first supercharged vehicles.

What are the benefits of the Eaton supercharger? 1) Patented technology to reduce noise, 2) Proven manufacturing capability, 3) Packaging flexibility, i.e. reduced package size, 4) Self-contained lubrication, i.e. no external oil connections to the engine, 5) Bypass system used for unloading supercharger during idle and light load, resulting in better fuel economy and quiet operation, 6) Competitive pricing.

Are Eaton superchargers noisy? The Eaton supercharger system incorporates a specially designed bypass valve, which is actuated by a vacuum motor near the throttle body, and re-circulates the supercharger air flow when boost is not required. During typical driving conditions, the engine is under boost around 5% of the time, which means the remaining 95% of the time the engine is under vacuum, allowing for better fuel economy and a quieter ride. In addition, the helix angled rotors, along with specially designed inlet and outlet port geometry, also reduce pressure variations resulting in a smooth discharge flow and a lower level of noise during operation. The associated ducting and mounting used in installing the supercharger can play a major role in reducing the noise emitted by the supercharger.

Is an Eaton supercharger reliable? The reliability of the Eaton supercharger was the first criteria, which was addressed during early design development of the supercharger. Dedicated engineers with backgrounds in compressors, gearing, tribology and metallurgy, as well as thermal and structural analysis enabled Eaton to find solutions to many reliability concerns. In addition, strict customer durability test criteria have been achieved. Successful completion of numerous 500 hour durability tests established a firm grasp on achieving a reliable product. In addition, numerous vehicles have successfully completed 100,000 mile, OEM (original equipment manufacturer), vehicle durability tests. Improvements in bearing and seal designs also aided in a product which meets all OEM durability criteria.

Is the performance benefit offset by the cost associated with an Eaton supercharger? In comparing a supercharged 3.8 liter, 2-valve/cylinder V6 engine with a non-supercharged 4.0 liter, 4-valve/cylinder V8, the supercharged vehicle will provide better power [torque], and at a lower overall cost, than the non-supercharged vehicle. This is due to complexity and tooling associated with the more complex 4-valve/cylinder engine.

What about fuel economy and flexible fuels? Supercharging is compatible with all types of fuels including flexible fuels, i.e. CNG (compressed natural gas), propane, etc. Fuel economy is not compromised, as described above in item #7, when utilizing the bypass system in conjunction with the supercharger. EPA (environmental protection agency) figures support this claim. A typical domestic vehicle equipped with an Eaton supercharger shows no fuel economy penalty for highway driving, and only a one mile per gallon penalty for city driving.

How does Eaton view supercharging for the future? With the continued interest in performance, and the desire to maintain fuel economy, supercharging could be the ideal product of the future. Using an Eaton supercharger to increase power on a smaller displacement engine, in turn achieving the performance of a larger engine, but not compromising fuel economy seems too good to be true--but that is what an Eaton supercharger provides. Current annual OEM usage is at 300,000 superchargers.

Is the supercharger available for aftermarket applications? The majority of Eaton supercharger applications have been designed for specific OEM applications. This is due to the fact that each engine application has unique hardware installation requirements and the design criteria of the supercharger is matched to the specific engine. Recent interest has, however, been shown in this market and has resulted in aftermarket applications being sourced through Magnuson Products, Inc.