hey MCduck,

as you know there are 2 sides to every story. undergroundracing is a well known shop that does great work. i brought zimbo and dollar99 there to have there kit's installed, witch they did and have yet to have any problems... i wasn't there so i can't say what is true and false about your story, however i did talk to the owner of undergroundracing kevin howeth and he assured me that you are not telling the complete truth about everything that happened.. i think you should have called kevin or went to underground and sat him down like adults and cleared this up instead of making this post


p.s. people just don't go off for no reason

 

fastvtec... it's Keith, right?

First, I did not "go off". If you read my post above, you will see that I stated nothing but facts. I did not post my opinions or beliefs about what happened (and believe me I have some). I just laid out the events as they happened. I could have been a lot more passionate about my experience, but I wanted to provide an accurate account not a subjective one.

It's obviously Kevin that is not telling you the whole story. I did go to Underground Racing and tried to talk to him face-to-face... though I didn't get far because Kevin's approach to dealing with a customer that was trying to resolve some issues was to yell at me and insult me (I was called an A-hole 3 times and stupid a couple of times among other things). I put up with his verbal abuse for the better part of 15-20 minutes. How many of the facts that I posted did Kevin leave out when you talked to him?

When I attempted to talk to him last Friday, I admitted the matter in which I handled the payment (stopping payment on the check until I could talk to Kevin) was not the best way to resolve things, but you will note I did disclose that with all the other facts. I also refused to leave his shop without settling up my bill when I got his side of the story on the charges I paid.

When I brought up the oil leak, he just blew up. I never got to give him all the facts regarding that issue because he wouldn't let me talk. He would raise his voice or yell everytime I tried to get a word in edge-wise. If he would have listened and been more helpful, I'm sure we could have figured out what happened which is all I really wanted.

Then, we have the de-tuning of my car. I didn't even try to bring that up because I could see how uncooperative Kevin was being from the start, but my car was definitely de-tuned prior to me picking it up from Underground Racing the first time. I watched KC reload the tune settings first thing when my car was put on the dyno before a first dyno run was done! Or rather, I watched the settings load... KC started the process and walked into the office for a few minutes as the settings were loading. I have a copy of the R4 software and know that is exactly what I was looking at. How would he know to do that first, prior to any dyno runs, unless the fully tuned settings had been removed by them during the prior visit?

Was there a reason this was done??? I don't know... I can tell you it was certainly never explained to me. Further, I paid $650 on March 23rd for tuning that put my car at 400rwhp... that is what I was lead to believe my car was making when I picked it up. I should not have even had to go back to their shop unless I chose to try to dial in a little more power beyond that. Yet, on April 2nd, I can clearly show that my car dynoed at 350rwhp.. NOT 400rwhp! SO WHAT HAD I PAID $650 FOR?!?! Don't believe me? The dyno sheets above tell that story clearly. I could have not tuned my car at all and had 350rwhp... that's roughly where the first run with the Vortech fell before tuning.

Out of all this, the thing that convinced me I could not let this slide was the way Kevin treated me. In business, they say the customer's always right. Well, I know this is not always true, but as a business you have to approach any customer service issues like it is true, be tactful and treat your customers with respect. Kevin Howeth did not do any of these things and I feel everyone who may potentially deal with him should know this.

Kevin yelled at me, insulted me, cussed at me, and attacked my character because I had some issues following the install and tuning of my Vortech that I could not explain. Instead of helping me sort things out, he threatened me if I were to post anything about my experience publicly.

At this point, I simply have put all the facts on the table in my post, letter to Vortech, and complaint with the Better Business Bureau. I will see to it that the exact same post above makes it to every 350Z, G35, Viper, and Mustang forum I can find because I feel it is that important. I am making no judgments... those that read the facts of this situation can decide for themselves whether to business with them. I can tell you I certainly will not and I know a lot of my friends that had planned to go to UR following my addition of a supercharger will not based on what I had to go through with them.

Also in the interest of full disclosure, everyone should know that fastvtecCL worked either for Underground Racing or one of their close affiliates until recently.

 

Sorry to be ignorant, but does the vortech program retard timing at all? Just wondering if maybe they were nervous of a car pushing 420 whp and so they detuned to be conservative.

--Aaron

 

Aaron...

Out of the box, the Vortech kit made around 340rwhp. I would have to pull the first dyno to get the exact number. The car was then tuned up to 400rwhp over several runs. This is what I was told it was making when I picked it up (I was given the first dyno sheet on page 1 of this thread). There seemed to be no concern on their part that this was pushing the motor too hard. On the second visit, the car was promptly tuned up to the 420rwhp it is at now.

This all happened before I brought up my concerns to Underground's owner. So, no, I don't think they were (or needed to be) nervous about tuning the car to that level.

 

There are two sides to every story,
A word of friendly advice,do not air you dirty laundry on the net. if you slander a person or a shop they can go after you with legal action.
The dealer is not always the bad guy. It sounds like you are mad at undergroung racing for an oil leak? They did not do the install of your blower.
When you use too many different people to work on your car you increase the chances of a problem. Why no have them install the unit and tune the car?
It seems like you are mad about a few minor problems?

How many of thse kits have been sold? How do you know that the kit is perfect with no problems or leaks?

Aftermarket parts do not always work perfectly.
I looked around the net and these guys at underground have a good reputation. They have a few Vipers that are making crazy power?

IMO you need to go back to the installer and have them fix your leak.

 

Hello everyone, I AM KC Howeth part owner of Underground Racing in Charlotte, North Carolina. I hate that this is my first post here because I have to post to clear up a matter that I thought was taken care of.

Andy Morris ( MCDuck ) of Mt. Holly, North Carolina came to my shop the first time to dyno. He knew who we where from the great things that he had heard of us from some of our customers ( Zimbo / Dollar and who know who else ). We where always very nice and went out of our way to help him rather it be giving advise or skipping lunch to let him dyno so he could get back to work.

** Note: I will try to keep this as short as possible because I know how boring long post are to read. Due to Mr. Morris's long and falsely information it may get a little long.

First Off - Pricing:
He was priced ( weeks before he purchased his Vortech kit from Carolina Performance Racing ( CPRace.com ) our typical tune charge ( With No Installation Of Blower Kit ) of $500 for tuning and $150 for dyno time. He had his kit installed at a local mechanic shop by one of his close friends. We cut prices for customers that have there Superchargers installed at our shop - We do this to help customers out and also when you tune a car that has had parts installed at other shops you never know what might be wrong and cause you to waste time tracking down a problem. As you will see a good example with Mr. Morris. After it was installed by his friend he then brought it to us to tune. After the tuning was done for the day he was informed that there where problems with his installation and that he would need to come back for fine tuning for no additional charge.( I will get to that reason in just a sec ). We went for a test drive to insure the drivability of the car was to his liking and it was. During the test drive I told him that the tune that was on his car was a safe tune and not the tune that made the most power ( Mr. Morris if you do not remember this you should... I told you this when we were getting off of I77 on to Tyvola Road. Maybe you didn't pay attention to me due to the excitement of your car making so much more power ). We then proceeded to the shop I printed out his dyno sheet, copied the dyno run files to his disk as I always do and he was off happy as could be.... SO I THOUGHT!

He spoke to a friend that got a price from us to install the kit and tune the car... hence the cheeper price for tuning.

**Dollar**
Dollar was charged more because after we installed the entire Blower kit he then decided to change his plugs. He also decided he wanted us to wire in a APEXi controller which added more work. He was misquoted by Carolina Performance Racing but we worked it out with dollar and did extra work at no additional cost because he had come so far. Just a mix-up from Underground Racing to Carolina Performance Racing to Dollar.

The Problem why Mr. Morris had to come back.
When Mr. Morris's mechanic installed his belt it was left loose.

**His mechanic also didn't check for clearance of the cog pulley
from his strut brace. Due to that it damaged the pulley and the cog belt. Which Kevin noticed and pointed out to Mr. Morris. The main belt was loose. Makes you wonder what else his mechanic didn't check or left loose??? While the strut bar was being removed by Kevin, Mr. Morris dropped the spacer for the strut bar somewhere??? Not to be found until later after the dyno was completed it popped up on the floor. Mr. Morris had removed his hood prior to coming to Underground Racing. He left the blots to his hood laying on the cal panel where they could be easily lost on the drive over. I pointed this out to Mr. Morris and gave him the bolts.

Before we began tuning I checked his belt for tightness and it seemed to be loose. Then I made the decision to start tuning and see if it would become a problem which I knew it would. After the first complete dyno pull to peak RPM's I could here that the belt was too loose ( Loud Squeaking noise ). After I saw that the belt was loose I made a few more dyno pulls to ensure the air fuel was rich enough that when he did tighten the belt it wouldn't be too lean. Hence the Lower Power Tune. Before Mr. Morris left the shop I showed him that the power was dropping due to belt slip. And once again reminded him that the tune on the car was a safe tune and he told me "Thats a smart idea!". I showed him the dyno run that made the most power of the day at I believe 390rwhp. I told him that the car will make more power with the final tune but the belt must be tight for me to complete the final tuning.
** Mr. Morris - If you look at the last two dyno files on your disk from that day you will see that the 390rwhp dyno pull was not the last pull of the day. You wanted me to print the highest horse power number of the day to show your mechanic. Look at those files and get back to me on that matter. You will see that I am correct.

The reason I added more fuel and less timing to the program was because I didn't not want to you damage you car. I had fear that you would go around driving it hard after getting the belt tight, which would make more boost and possibly blow your motor if the setting where not correct. There is no way for me to know how much more boost your car would make, so I couldn't to a final tune. I told you not to be hard on the car until you got back for the final tune just to ensure that your car would not be damaged. Yet you went against my recommendation and took your car to be dyno'd at another shop. I see now that your not a good listener.


Wow thats a lot of typing!!!

The Final Tune
Mr. Morris came back as scheduled for the final tune ( at no additional cost for tuning or dyno time due to his mechanics failure ).
I check the belt for tightness and it was this time. I started to uploaded the performance tune to the ECU and began to make a dyno pull after the upload was complete. Anyone who knows the R4 software knows that is takes a few minutes.
( What point Mr. Morris was trying to make about this I have no idea just has too much time on his hands and likes to type I guess ).

After a few pulls Mr. Morris is very happy with the results and tells me that its good for him. I asked if he was sure and told him that there is still some safe power left there. He said that it was more than enough and he was very happy. That made me happy that he was happy and I began to unhook the car from the dyno.

*** Warning: This is the part that got nasty. READ THE FOLLOWING VERY CAREFULLY ( Including you Mr. Morris I think your memory needs refreshing. Also, Mr. Morris you seem to look at the whole thing very close minded. IM not sure if you have some type of disability or you just dont have very good common sense. Just try to rethink the situation and ask yourself how would you have acted? IM not saying this to offend you I just don't know how your mental health is and I want to clear up all of this mess )

 

The Nasty Part !!!
As I AM starting to remove the car from the dyno and showing a few other people in the shop what great power it made Mr. Morris went to my brother ( Kevin Howeth the other owner of Underground Racing ) and asked him about the pricing difference. Kevin then explained why the price was different. After that he told Kevin that he had placed a stop payment on the check that he had given us for the amount of $550.00. Mr. Morris said that he thought that it was wrong to give a discount to someone just because they purchased there kit from Carolina Performance Racing and had it installed at Underground Racing and that he didn't want to pay the agreed price that he was quoted. Kevin calmly tried to explain why... its not to hard to understand the more money a customer spends the more we try to help them out by discounting prices where we can. Mr. Morris didn't understand this theory the more Kevin tried to explain it the more dumbfounded Mr. Morris seemed.

Kevin, after explaining the pricing theory to Mr. Morris several times and Mr. Morris not understanding, asked Mr. Morris why would you put a stop payment on the check. Mr. Morris gave him the reason outlined in the last huge paragraph. Kevin then asked the question again and also said thats not a very good reason to put a stop payment on a check and that is was a very poor way to handle a situation like that. Why didn't you just call me to talk about it, said Kevin. Mr. Morris was speechless... silence stood in the room while everyone was curiously waiting for an answer. Mr. Morris stood silently then gave a few shrugs and stutters the said IM not happy with the oil leaking. Kevin said what oil leaking, we didn't install you kit that has nothing to do with us. Mr. Morris then said that we at Underground Racing where attempting to sabotage his car!! <-- This was said very aggressively by Mr. Morris to Kevin.

This ladies and gentlemen is where the s h i t hit the fan.

A few quick recommendations.
1 - If you have a problem just call and ask us or you mechanic before you do something stupid like Mr. Morris.

2 - If your mechanic messed up and to cover his own @$$ gave you the idea that the tuner is trying to sabotage you for what ever reason STOP! First step back and think about the situation before you accuse the tuner. And definitely dont say it with a tough guy attitude.

Read those again Mr. Morris.

Back to the story:
After Mr. Morris made this statement Kevin said why the hell would we do something like that? Mr. Morris went on and on and on about the big conspiracy to damage his vehicle. This made Kevin and I very angry and upset. Put yourself in our shoes... Who wouldn't be angry if you have had a successful business for years with not a single complaint and some two faced jerk accuses you of sabotaging his car. And says that he is going to tell every one of what we had tried to do to his car with no evidence or motive. Kevin talked to Mr. Morris, of course very PISSED now, and tries to clear up the matter. Kevin tried to set him straight and did call him names. Who wouldn't I would have done the same thing if I could have got a word in. Wow, these Underground Racing guys are so mean for call me names after I accuse them of something that they didn't do and I cant come up with a motive or evidence other than what my mechanic says and pictures that I could have taken before or after the problem.

After things started to calm down a bit Kevin asked Mr. Morris where the oil was leaking from and he said it was the oil drain plug and now he said it was a supercharger fitting. Which is it?? I guess there isn't much since in asking Mr. Morris because he told us, " I didn't know the difference between a fuel pump and a blow off valve when I went thru my kit". Not to insult him but if you dont know the difference between those two you definitely shouldn't make assumptions about oil leaks.
Mr. Morris then admitted that he handled the situation poorly and Kevin asked him if he understood why he, Kevin, was so upset. He said yes. Kevin asked Mr. Morris, "Put yourself in my shoes. Would you be as upset as I AM?" Mr. Morris said, "YES, I would and I totally understand you." Mr. Morris told me that he was disappointed in himself and that he was disappointed that he made Kevin so upset and angry. I said, "He wasn't the only one that you made mad or upset." Mr. Morris said nothing more to me. I finished printing up his dyno sheet as he requested, downloaded his dyno files to his disk and told him to have a good day.

Mr. Morris
We at Underground Racing are very sorry that you and us at Underground Racing had to deal with this problem. It was really out of our hands. We did not do anything to your car but tune it and make great safe power. We did not conspire to sabotage your vehicle for whatever reasons you may possibly come up with.

www.My350Z members:
Wow... I haven't typed that much since... wait... I have NEVER typed that much... my wrists are killing me. Anyhow this was a matter that needed my attention. We at Underground Racing are not your typical hole in the wall mechanic shop as described above by Mr. Morris and his seemingly Green Horn mechanic. We are a Professional Performance Speed Shop. We work on all types of cars ranging from Imports to Domestics. We love to work on cars, make customers happy and make awesome safe horse power. If you don't believe me just take a look at the picture of our shop on our home page at www.UndergroundRacing.com. After you look at our shop then take a second and think of all the facts. Then think, would a shop that works on high end cars and treats every customer like a highend customer do something like that... If you say yes.... WHY? We have a rock hard reputation for doing things right and making power that only others could dream of.

** Warning Mr. Morris ** I would like to give you a friendly word of advise to watch what you say and do. Otherwise, Kevin might take the advise from one of our Viper customers that is a very reputable local lawyer and use his free legal representation. I thought that we had this situation under control but I guess its not. Get some legal advise and see if what your doing is a good idea. Its called SLANDER.


If there is anyone including you Mr. Morris that would like to discuss this matter further with us at Underground Racing feel free to call, write or e-mail us:

ME - KC Howeth - 704-361-1444 - SaleenKC@aol.com
Kevin Howeth - 704-361-3443 - Saleen2run@aol.com

Underground Racing
500 Griffith Road
Charlotte, NC 28217


Once again I AM sorry for the extremely long post and look forward to doing more posting here.

Laterz,
KC Howeth of Underground Racing.com

 

i came on here to defend underground racing but it looks like that is taken care of. by the way my name is Jackie.i also dyno my car at undeground. 94 civic/itr swap/basic bolt ons.i was one of the first people to dyno my car when they first got the dyno jet. i have been a customer since they opened the shop. i do not believe this story that mr. morris is telling. they have always been polite and more than willing to help me with my car whenever i needed it!! like keith said there are two sides to every story. i read mr. morris' post before k.c. replied and the first thing that i thought was WTF. there are to many reasons why a car would be leaking oil or anything for that matter ESPECIALLY after you dyno your car. it is very rude and unethical for a person/customer to come into a forum and post a story like this, its slander (illegal) and doest give you, mr. morris, good character. i understand mr. morris is upset BUT it looks like he took it out on the wrong people. one question...why in the hell would underground want to sabotage mr. morris' car?? this makes me UPSET!!!! immaturity gets you NOWHERE!!! mr. morris it would be a good investment for you to try to work things out with this shop if its still possible. they were good to you and for this you should be appreciative.

 

Okay, let me defuse this before it gets out of hand...

First off, if Kevin would have discussed matters with me while I was at his shop instead of blowing up at me, we probably wouldn't be here right now. KC has, in his posts, explained much that I was trying to find out on Friday, April 2nd but couldn't because of the disrespectful way I was treated.

Second, I did not slander anyone... I simply stated the events as they happened to me the customer.

Now, I won't sit here and refute KC's entire commentary. Some of what he states is accurate some is not.
Don't state facts that you do not know for certain, KC. My mechanic did, infact, check the clearance on the strut bar. It was the last part put on prior to me driving to Underground Racing the first morning. What we did not account for was the amount of body flex. There appeared to be enough clearance prior to this. It rubbed on my drive over to Underground. I noticed it and asked Kevin about it and we agreed that the strut bar would have to come off. There was some minor smoothing to the very edge of one of the cog pulleys and to the belt on the same, but nothing that would affect tuning (because it is cogged, this is not a belt that can slip like the serpentine).

Again, this is not entirely as it happened. I do remember KC telling me they had put a safe tune on my car (both times) as he mentions. However, I was led to believe with the dyno graph I was given that my car was safely tuned to 395rwhp. I'm willing to chalk this up to it not being explained clearly when I picked up the car. I had intended to also ask about this during my visit on April 2nd, but as I indicated in my original post I didn't even get to it because I could not get Kevin to engage in a dialogue about my oil leak concern. More on that in a moment.

All true... and I am very happy with where the car is tuned right now. Because of what I had found about the prior dyno tune on my own was the other reason I wanted to stop. I wanted to witness first hand that the car was unhooked from the dyno and R4 software at the full tune level so it didn't wind up back at 350rwhp. Again, if KC had explained this to me better on my first visit I would not have had a question about it and I'm sure he could have told me this first hand had I had a chance to bring it up during the second visit... which I didn't.

Enough on the tuning, tho... I think this is just a miscommunication deal and could have been cleared up had we had a chance to talk about it. The car was detuned before I left the first time, but apparently there was a reason for that which was not made clear. I can accept that

KC... I think you really want to address my concerns or you wouldn't have replied with such a lengthy post. However, there was nothing wrong with how I acted. I had plenty of time to sort out how I wanted to approach things before I arrived. I knew what I was going to say and what I was going to do. If you remember correctly, I was calm and tried to talk to Kevin. He was the one blowing his stack, ranting, yelling, calling me names, and, yes, threatening me.

As you say... on to the nasty stuff...

 

Man sounded like they tried to ream you a new one. He should of been more professional.

 

This is not what happened. I did ask Kevin about the pricing difference and did tell him right up front that I stopped payment because I had questions about that difference. Kevin, understandably, appeared a little upset immediately, but explained why there was a difference. This did not require multiple explanations as KC is implying. I understood it immediately. I told Kevin that I wasn't sure I agreed with it, but that was their pricing and that I would settle up with them immediately and apologized for the inconvenience. KC, if you remember this differently, then you may be the one with the memory disorder because what I just stated is exactly what happened.

At this time, all three Underground Racing employees went into the office. I presumed to look into the stop payment check. I stood in their garage for what seemed like a very long time before Kevin asked me to step into the office with them.


Kevin explained the pricing theory once, that is all, once. It was understood. I offerred to settle up, that I could write a check on the spot. Kevin told me he'd rather have a credit card considering what I did with the first check and I complied with this request for obvious reasons.

When I was called into the office, this was when Kevin asked why I would stop payment on the check for a reason like that and that was a stupid, not poor, way to handle the situation. I agreed it could have been handled better, apologized again for acting rashly, but that I was more than happy to settle up then. However, Kevin persisted with the "Why would you stop payment?" question. Not sure why he was still asking this, yes, I did stand silently for a few moments. Did he not understand that I had thought I had been overcharged? I also was considering whether to even mention the oil leak considering how upset Kevin had gotten over just the check issue. Thinking they could help me get to the bottom of that, after another moment I said "I've also had a problem with an oil leak". I never said that "I wasn't happy with the oil leaking" or anything remotely close to this.

This was when Kevin started getting real upset and said they had not installed the kit and it had nothing to do with them. During his yelling at me, I managed after a couple attempts to get enough out to inform the UR crew that I had not had a leak after install or on the way to their shop or on their dyno. But that one did occur on my way back to the install shop and that I had leaked almost 2 quarts of oil (an error on my part... it was probably more like 1 1/2 quarts). I added that the timing of when the leak started was suspect and that is why I needed to talk to them about it. I assumed that they could help me figure out what happened to cause the leak. Unfortunately, it was at this time that Kevin proceeded to rip me, their customer, a new one. Kevin said, and this is an exact quote... I can still hear him saying it... "Why we would do that?! Why would we sabotage your car?!?!" His words... not mine. I never said the word sabotage before, during, or after this point. The thought occurred to me, but it didn't make sense to me from a business standpoint. The worst that I said was the time at which the leak began was suspect. I really expected them to tell me that it was likely the strain of pushing the car so hard on the dyno so soon, but instead I got... "Why we would do that?! Why would we sabotage your car?!?!"

This quote pretty much sums up how my concerns to this point were being addressed. Instead of talking to me calmly to help me figure out what may have happened, I was told that I was being stupid and that I was an A@@hole for doing such things and so forth. For God's sake! I don't work on superchargers everyday... they do. I paid them for their expertise and when I encountered issues that I attempted to layout calmly and as factually as I could so they could analyze them for me, I was met with abuse.

Umm... go back to my original post here... where in it did I accuse you, Underground Racing, of anything related to the oil leak. I didn't when I was at your shop and I didn't on this forum. The bottom line is I don't have all the facts regarding that issue and I had hoped you could help fill in some of the gaps... instead you berated me for even asking... great customer service, guys.
I will admit, I did accuse you of detuning my car... which you did. I just did not understand why... the reason was not conveyed well and since we never got to talk about it on April 2nd, we never could clear the air on that prior to this all going public.

Load of crap... Kevin ranted about this... a lot, but I never brought up anything remotely resembling a conspiracy theory. Again, I thought carefully about what I should say about certain issues going into the shop that day because I knew I had the facts on some things and on other things I did not. As Kevin ranted and yelled, I basically stood there and took his abuse, apologized several times when I could work a word in for bringing up my problems, and asked him to just let me settle up and be on my way.
That's an outright lie. I never threatened to tell anyone about what was happening. On the contrary, Kevin threatened me if I was planning to go out on public forum's and accuse Underground of any wrongdoing.

 

Kevin did not get "calm" until I was almost ready to leave. I never said "oil drain plug" or "supercharger fitting". I said "oil fitting" in my document. I know exactly where the leak was because my car went straight up on the lift when the leaking oil was noticed upon my arrival at the install shop. We removed the splash guards and could clearly see the "oil fitting" that the oil was leaking from. We compared it to pictures taken of the install and determined the fitting was in a different position. Could it have not been tightened all the way? Maybe. Could it have been loosened? Maybe. Could it have succombed to stress on the dyno? Maybe. I'll never know what happened for sure though because I couldn't get any help from those who could have probably been the most informative.

Umm... KC... I'm going to let you in on a little secret... all cars use oil... not all cars have an auxilary fuel pump and/or a blow off valve. Because I have never worked much with superchargers or turbos on my own cars, I had no idea what a blow off valve would look like. For all I knew, it could have been shaped like a fuel pump. More importantly, that issue has nothing to do with Underground and me... it was something handled professionally by another shop I dealt with when I bought the Vortech kit.

Yet again trying to put words in my mouth that I never said. Where above did I describe Underground Racing as a "hole in the wall mechanic shop". As a matter of fact, if you read this thread, you'll note that I mentioned you came highly recommended from Dollar99 and Zimbo, which is why I came to you in the first place.

Thank you for the warning, KC, but please re-read my original statement in this thread closely. I only relayed what actually happened and what I know to be true. There are no accusations of foul play toward Underground Racing. I did state that, based on what I saw and experienced, I knew the car had been detuned and that I was never able to discuss that with you. Both true statements and, at this time, I am satisfied with your explanation of that occurence. Had I been able to learn that when I last visited you, I would not have even mentioned it.

Other than the bit about the dynos, I said nothing but what actually happened.

After all is said and done, my issue with Underground Racing comes down to how I was treated as a customer. I did not falsely accuse them of wrongdoing at any point. I did not say at any point they were trying to "sabotage" my car. I did say that I had a problem and because of when it started I needed to talk to them. It was how things were handled by Underground Racing after this that made me feel it was necessary to share my experience.

I could remove the bits about the oil leak and the dyno runs from my story entirely and I believe I'd still have a legitimate complaint for the way I was treated for, essentially, believing I had been overcharged and returning to the shop to settle my account correctly.

KC, I really don't care much about the oil leak... it was fixed and ultimately no harm was done. I brought it up, reluctantly, because I wanted to learn how it happened to make sure it would not happen again. The dynos... you've explained that and it makes sense. I just wish we could have covered that while I was there.

What it comes down to the disrespectful way you guys... well, Kevin... treated me on Friday, April 2nd. I tried to discuss matters face-to-face as they should have been handled and I was verbally abused for my efforts. And that is why I posted my account of the events.

I wish I could believe this, KC. But after how I was treated last Friday, I really don't want to set myself up for further badgering.

Tell you what... I'm a big believer in second chances. Show me you are a better business than the rest. Show me that the way you treated me was wrong and that you are willing to settle our differences on that so you can earn my trust and future business back.

I leave it to you to make that effort to mend this bad customer experience. I don't want any work on my car... we've already settled up on that and I'm happy with the power my car is making now. I don't want any money. I feel you guys performed the service you were paid for.

And, I am acknowledging now that I did not fully understand the reason for why my car had been de-tuned after the first visit.

What I want is for you to acknowledge my account is accurate (again, if you read my original post carefully, I did not accuse Underground Racing of any wrong doing for mechanical things. I merely stated the facts to better illustrate the final office discussion).
AND, I want a formal apology for how I was treated... and I want it to come from Kevin, not you. He was the one who went overboard and ripped into me... not you... not Matt. He was wrong to treat me (or any customer) in that manner. He should email it directly to me at qwikz@earthlink.net and post it here with the exact same wording for all to see.

If you can do these two things, then I will be willing to put this behind us and give your shop unqualified kudos for the work you have done on my car.

 

Mr Morris
Grow up working on cars and doing modifications are not always pretty and work properly.

Sounds like you keep trying to justify stoping payment on a check for no reason.
In most shops you get a discount if all the work is done in one place. Why are you so upset over a few hundered bucks? From your description of your car it seems like you have pleanty of money to throw at your car.
Looking at this tread it seems to me the guys at Underground racing got you a huge power increase over stock. WTF why are you so upset. If my wifes Z made that kind of power I would be thrilled.
Also becareful about putting all your problems on the net. The other shops in the area my not want to work on your car for feer of being slandered on the net.

 

What an interesting thread.

 

perauto1...

I am upset because of the way my concerns were handled by Underground Racing.
At the time, I felt I had reason and I have admitted to Underground and here in my first post that I did not handle this as best I could ("I told Kevin exactly what I had done regarding the payment and why This upset him and he expressed an opinion that I should have contacted hi first. I agree, I probably should have, but I could not change that after the fact.") However, at the time I felt based on the information I had that I had been overcharged. I did not receive a breakdown of the charges I incurred. I was only given a total of $650 and told, when I inquired, that this amount did include dyno time. I later received information through friends of the quoted breakdown.

Let's all keep in mind that it was me who brought up the stopped payment check to Underground while I was there. It's not like they had to track me down or something. I brought it out right up front when Kevin returned to the shop (he had left during most of the time I was getting my final tune) so we could address it while I was there. I also paid the full amount again with no fuss after it was made clear why my tuning charges were more.

I did grow up working on cars and I do know things don't always go right. I reluctantly brought my problem up during my visit hoping Underground could help me figure it out. (Mr. Morris was speechless... silence stood in the room while everyone was curiously waiting for an answer.). I was not speechless, I was debating whether I should bring up any other problems considering how I was being treated for making a mistake on interpretting the payment amount. UR turnout to be anything but helpful. Their approach was to be defensive and point fingers at other parties which I knew, from additional information I never got to share, were not at fault.

This is funny! It always reminds me of a point an old, old friend has made to me in the past concerning money. Perauto1... meet me and give me a penny today... now meet me and give me a penny every hour for the next week. Doesn't sound like much, does it. How about you give me penny every minute? Okay.. how about a penny every second? (for those quick with math that works out to be $864/day). Do you see my point? It doesn't matter how much the amount was... it is still my money and I should not have to pay more than is right. I mistakenly thought I had been overcharged. Anyway, this is a dead horse, Kevin did convey his point about the charge and we settled up. I'm okay with that and the work that was done.

What I'm not okay with is the way I was treated. I'm sorry, but I'm pretty sure Underground Racing is a business... not a back lot playground. They should know how to act like a business and be professional all the time... not 50% of the time... not for every customer but 10 or every customer but 1... all the time.

I am thrilled with the tuning they did. I told KC that on the last run even though he thought there might be a little more power there. However, if you wife's car made that kind of power, but someone was pissing on you while they got it there... would you be happy with the way you were treated?

 

Just to ensure I'm not out of my brain, I just went back and read my original post completely and thoroughly.

I think anyone coming onto this thread who has not done that needs to do the same.

I'm trying to see where I accuse Underground of anything. As far as I can see, there are no accusations, just a recount of events.

Oil leak? I said they were not helpful when I was trying to figure out what may have happened ("I was simply attempting to investigate a problem I, the customer, had encountered and Kevin immediately became defensive and belligerent."). I cannot find anywhere where I say, or even imply, that they were to blame.

Dyno Sheets? I've already accepted KC's explanation of this. The problem at the time I posted is this had not been explained clearly at that point. ("I am troubled by the fact that, for some unexplained reason, I was told by Underground Racing my car dyno-ed at 400rwhp only to find later that it had, in fact, been detuned...) See, I even stated indirectly that there could be a reason for this having been done, but that it was not adequately explained at the time of pick up.

Pricing of services? I just addressed that in the prior post. Was my approach the best? No, and I admitted that upfront. But because I approached the matter poorly, does that mean it is okay for Underground Racing's owners treat me disrespectfully and insult me? No... this is never acceptable for a professional business.

If anyone else (not me or Underground employees since we are obviously the involved parties) who reads my original post can find where I accuse them of any wrongdoing regarding the mechanical aspects of the service, please point it out to me. It's funny because it is they, not me, who keep refreshing this line of thought. I very deliberately worded the document so as not to be accusatory and even had a uninvolved, unbiased party (someone where I work) read it before posting to make sure nothing appeared that could be taken as an accusation, false or not. There are too many possibilities of what could have happened for me to blindly point my finger... but I did want to try to determine what happened to ensure it would not happen again. I'm not they type of person interested in placing blame. I'm the type of person who looks for answers to prevent reoccurences of issues... It is what I do for a living.

I think it is sad that a business in the position of Underground Racing does not also have this attitude.

For now, I will wait and see how Kevin and KC respond to my request in bold from the earlier post above.

 

Just noticed this gem from KC's first post. My serpentine belt was NOT loose after it was installed, but it was brand new. When I left Underground Racing the first time, KC said (and I agreed this was likely the case) because it is a brand new belt it probably stretched a little during the drive over and the dyno runs. Makes sense.

I'm not sure why KC would state this as he did unless they are attempting to tarnish the reputation of the install shop... and that, in fact, would be slander. Not my business, though.. .that would have to be between Underground Racing and Cosentino Hi-Lines.

and here... not sure how they can make these sort of accusations without proof. There were a few more that are blatantly false aimed toward the installer. I should probably bring it to that shop's attention, but that is a different matter.

The issue of this thread is how Underground treated me... not how Cosentino Hi-Lines treated me or their relations toward one another.

 

Dude, it sounds to me like you should have discussed everything with Underground before you let them do any work. If you had a problem with their price, you should have discussed it up front. Don't run to some message board to try and receive some sort of buddy gratification from airing your dirty laundry.

 

Quite frankly mcduck has done a great job of describing Kevin, KC, and their arrogant attitudes. Both of them have a big mouths, big egos, and a flair for profanity -- especially when folks have perspectives that differ from theirs.

Also -- Kevin and KC are both notirous for creating bogus logins on various boards and then "coming to their own defense". I would bet that half of the newbie posts on this thread fall into that category. They are also notorious for this on their own board.

Buyer beware... Where there is smoke there is usually some fire..

 

Well this is all very sad isn't it?

If you didn't do anything wrong there is nothing to defend.
As an outsider that was the firstthing popping into my head, but I wasn't there so I want you to know how it reads from a 3rd part.
I have always thought there were *3* sides to every story. What one says, what the other says and what actually took place while both were arguing lol. It's usually somewhere in the middle!

Questioning someones mental state makes you look bad.

Just some words of advice from someone who had a domestic tuner toast his $6500.00 engine that cost me 9 grand and it eded up in court I think this should go away. But who am I?

I will just say a few things having been through this. It's best to take it offline, for both sides. Only difference is my guy installed and tuned so there wasn't a 3rd party. That 3rd part will help McDuck, think about it you will understand or maybe you do as a bisiness man.

As for the other people coming here well that is par for the course in these types of instances.

What I don't like is when a shop expects a paying customer to know everything (imply it even.) That irks me! I work friggen hard for my money and do things I can others I have to pay. I don't want to but I have too!

That is why they pay people like you sir, in fact that is why you are in business, because you trained in an industry of demand and get customers that need your service. Down talking them on a public forum just looks bad. I'm being real man I don't think it can help either one of you to air it out here, I think from what I have read you should be glad it's not a blown engine and work it out and squash it, all off line.

One more thing,

"its slander (illegal)"

Wrong....

It's not "illegal" as in a crime it's a tort (civil) you don't go to jail you would go to civil court and plead your case. The result would be money not jail.

When you escalate it beyong verbal (slander) and put it in writing it becomes 'libel" again civil not criminal.

Well that is my 2 cents, I hate to read this, Mcduck is nice, I love Z's but I wasn't there and you have a nice website, although it does feature lots of domestics. I am gonna check out some vids though I can never get enough of those man!

Hope you guys take this offline and work it all out, take it from me it can go nowhere here but downhill unless you both can give and right now I just don't seee that.

Anyways my 2 cents as a Z lover.

Peas!