Built motor costs
05-06-2004, 12:47 PM
#22
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Originally posted by gq_626
holy crap...I saw the other pics. Looks like they already closed the deck for you! Very nice.
holy crap...I saw the other pics. Looks like they already closed the deck for you! Very nice.
Kudos can you let us know if they did any work to your block to close the deck or reinforcement of the sleeves???? thanks man i bought two boxes of kleenex to wipe all the drool of my computer!!!!!
05-06-2004, 12:56 PM
#23
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Check this out click on the small white 350 z
http://www.bouldernissan.com/en_US/
also im a little coufused on the whole closed deck principals but click this link and take a look maybe this is a hevay duty metal gasket that kind of makes the block have a closed deck..
http://store.yahoo.com/sgpracing-sto...eandmastf.html
Any enging experts care to comment on this???
http://www.bouldernissan.com/en_US/
also im a little coufused on the whole closed deck principals but click this link and take a look maybe this is a hevay duty metal gasket that kind of makes the block have a closed deck..
http://store.yahoo.com/sgpracing-sto...eandmastf.html
Any enging experts care to comment on this???
05-06-2004, 02:47 PM
#24
Yeah...i see what you mean. It is very hard to tell in that photo. See, in the first photo, it is clear an open deck, and the sleeves are stock iron sleeves...solid...very nice. Then in the second pic, they look closed, but its hard to tell.
Well, now that we know the 350Z is stock sleeved in iron, i feel much better now.
Well, now that we know the 350Z is stock sleeved in iron, i feel much better now.
05-06-2004, 05:24 PM
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Originally posted by gq_626
Yeah...i see what you mean. It is very hard to tell in that photo. See, in the first photo, it is clear an open deck, and the sleeves are stock iron sleeves...solid...very nice. Then in the second pic, they look closed, but its hard to tell.
Well, now that we know the 350Z is stock sleeved in iron, i feel much better now.
Yeah...i see what you mean. It is very hard to tell in that photo. See, in the first photo, it is clear an open deck, and the sleeves are stock iron sleeves...solid...very nice. Then in the second pic, they look closed, but its hard to tell.
Well, now that we know the 350Z is stock sleeved in iron, i feel much better now.
Anyway im still a little unclear about what exactly a closed or semi closed deck is vs an open deck and why a closed deck is better for turbo than an open deck i need some motor gurus to help me out with this!!!
MOTOR GURU'S SPEAK THOU WISDOM!
05-06-2004, 06:02 PM
#26
Here is the cliff notes version.
Most cars run open decks. The deck area is the space between the cylinder sleeve and the engine block. That is the space i was referring to my previous post. You can clearly see what looks like a ring of free space around each cylinder wall.
For really high HP applications, a lot of engine builders will "close the deck", which means they essentially fill in that area with solid iron. So the entire cylinder wall is fully ensconced in iron. Get it? This will keep the cylinders from walking. Remember...the pistons are not moving up and down in perfect balance....they arent like elevator cars. The crankshaft and rods are constantly tugging on it from side to side....so the cylinder walls will tend to flex under extreme RPM or pressure. Hard to desribe in words...easy to see if you look at an engine diagram....
With a semi-closed deck (not even sure if thats the right terminology...but it sounds good to me), a special insert is wedged between the cyclinder wall and the engine block...but it is not completed filled. This adds some extra rigidity, but not as much as a full closed deck. The semi-closed version is actually what I prefer, because it allows for better heat transfer to the coollant. I prefer to have my cylinder walls fullly bathed in coolant at all times...and as close to the combustion chamber as possible.
Hope I got this all correct! If not...motor-gurus can correct me.
Most cars run open decks. The deck area is the space between the cylinder sleeve and the engine block. That is the space i was referring to my previous post. You can clearly see what looks like a ring of free space around each cylinder wall.
For really high HP applications, a lot of engine builders will "close the deck", which means they essentially fill in that area with solid iron. So the entire cylinder wall is fully ensconced in iron. Get it? This will keep the cylinders from walking. Remember...the pistons are not moving up and down in perfect balance....they arent like elevator cars. The crankshaft and rods are constantly tugging on it from side to side....so the cylinder walls will tend to flex under extreme RPM or pressure. Hard to desribe in words...easy to see if you look at an engine diagram....
With a semi-closed deck (not even sure if thats the right terminology...but it sounds good to me), a special insert is wedged between the cyclinder wall and the engine block...but it is not completed filled. This adds some extra rigidity, but not as much as a full closed deck. The semi-closed version is actually what I prefer, because it allows for better heat transfer to the coollant. I prefer to have my cylinder walls fullly bathed in coolant at all times...and as close to the combustion chamber as possible.
Hope I got this all correct! If not...motor-gurus can correct me.
05-06-2004, 06:13 PM
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Here is a link that will help you guys answer your questions http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show...ight=open+deck
05-06-2004, 08:12 PM
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Originally posted by gq_626
phat, what a great 2nd post for you! Koodos for finding these great pics. Although not of a VQ, the same concept applys. Thank!!
phat, what a great 2nd post for you! Koodos for finding these great pics. Although not of a VQ, the same concept applys. Thank!!
Weeeee learning really is fun i gotta call my 3rd grade teacher and tell her she was right!!!!!!
So from what i am seeing is the block is really not our weak spot at all its the rord/pistons until somebody proves me wrong with a blown block where the forged rods/pistons dont fail!
05-06-2004, 09:10 PM
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The crank is increadiably strong. The VQ35 one is much stronger than the VQ30 one. The guy on nissanperformancemag.com is running a VQ30 in his 350z. He reves it to 8500 rpm and make peak power at 8000 rpm. Who ever keeps saing this **** about not reving over 7000 is retarded. Turbo effeciancy isn't even good in that kind of rpm range unless you have a huge turbo. I doubt those little twins can get to those kind of rpms without choking. The crank and block are increadiably strong. Good for 800 - 1000 hp. The stock pistons are alright probally good for 450-500 hp if you have good tuning and do not detonate too much. The connecting rods are weak. I say the rods are not good for more than 450 hp. IT is oonly time if you are running more than that. Those things will get weaker and weaker and maybe even stretch till they shoot out the block.
05-07-2004, 03:08 PM
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No problems guys.... Just trying to help out. I myself own a Subaru so we always debate on open, semi, and closed deck blocks. From my experience it would be nice to have a closed deck for insane boosting, plus you can get piston squirters. But for a block like the VQ it would be sick if it was pinned since you guys already have the iron sleeves. This will add some strength to the block. An example of this is 
Last edited by phatshiet; 05-07-2004 at 03:11 PM.
05-07-2004, 03:18 PM
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by phatshiet
No problems guys.... Just trying to help out. I myself own a Subaru so we always debate on open, semi, and closed deck blocks. From my experience it would be nice to have a closed deck for insane boosting, plus you can get piston squirters. But for a block like the VQ it would be sick if it was pinned since you guys already have the iron sleeves. This will add some strength to the block.
Can any machine shop install those pins on any block?? Is there any negative effects to doing that????
Thanks!
No problems guys.... Just trying to help out. I myself own a Subaru so we always debate on open, semi, and closed deck blocks. From my experience it would be nice to have a closed deck for insane boosting, plus you can get piston squirters. But for a block like the VQ it would be sick if it was pinned since you guys already have the iron sleeves. This will add some strength to the block.
Can any machine shop install those pins on any block?? Is there any negative effects to doing that????
Thanks!
05-07-2004, 04:29 PM
#35
Those pins are neat, but I have seen better designs before. I like the ones that are more "asterisks" in shape. Damn..I wish I knew this engine building terminology stuff better. But I think you get the picture. They are kinda a combo between an asterisk and triangle. I will take some pics of my buddy's build Honda block and show you what I mean.
Agree that rods, and primarily the rod bolts are the weakest link. Proper tuning is key...as always.
Agree that rods, and primarily the rod bolts are the weakest link. Proper tuning is key...as always.
05-07-2004, 05:01 PM
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Originally posted by gq_626
Those pins are neat, but I have seen better designs before. I like the ones that are more "asterisks" in shape. Damn..I wish I knew this engine building terminology stuff better. But I think you get the picture. They are kinda a combo between an asterisk and triangle. I will take some pics of my buddy's build Honda block and show you what I mean.
Agree that rods, and primarily the rod bolts are the weakest link. Proper tuning is key...as always.
Those pins are neat, but I have seen better designs before. I like the ones that are more "asterisks" in shape. Damn..I wish I knew this engine building terminology stuff better. But I think you get the picture. They are kinda a combo between an asterisk and triangle. I will take some pics of my buddy's build Honda block and show you what I mean.
Agree that rods, and primarily the rod bolts are the weakest link. Proper tuning is key...as always.
Im fairly convinced that a built motor will handle the 650 to 700 hp range on 25psi unless people with these motors prove me otherwise.
Now i gotta wonder about that 6 spd tranny and rear diff it will be interesting to see how these hold up under this kind of power or tourque.
05-07-2004, 08:50 PM
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Originally posted by gq_626
yeah...and how about our driveshaft? That carbon composite jobby doesnt look too sturdy.
yeah...and how about our driveshaft? That carbon composite jobby doesnt look too sturdy.
Also I think i posted this before but they ripped out the stock vsc lsd and installed the solid nismo LSD and one of their mechanics sadi the rear end gears looked pretty beefy and stout.
Kind of funnny when i was asking him bout the durability of the stock rear end he said that they would "definitly find out" lol!
05-07-2004, 10:27 PM
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Originally posted by SQUILL
Yea i dont know bout that one, the guys at Boulder Nissan didnt seem to scared of it and far as i know they are keeping it stock
Also I think i posted this before but they ripped out the stock vsc lsd and installed the solid nismo LSD and one of their mechanics sadi the rear end gears looked pretty beefy and stout.
Kind of funnny when i was asking him bout the durability of the stock rear end he said that they would "definitly find out" lol!
Yea i dont know bout that one, the guys at Boulder Nissan didnt seem to scared of it and far as i know they are keeping it stock
Also I think i posted this before but they ripped out the stock vsc lsd and installed the solid nismo LSD and one of their mechanics sadi the rear end gears looked pretty beefy and stout.
Kind of funnny when i was asking him bout the durability of the stock rear end he said that they would "definitly find out" lol!
05-08-2004, 01:45 AM
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Originally posted by Enron Exec
I appreciate all this great info your passing on. Keep up the great work!
I appreciate all this great info your passing on. Keep up the great work!
No problem...its fusturating isint it always waiting to get the answers we seek...If we wanted to build a corvette or a mustang we could find every last piece of information we would ever want to know because its all been done before....
The 350Z is so new that we have to wait and see what happens when someone steps up and does something new or man up and be the first and find out!!!!! lol
It looks to me like about 2 or 3 cars are being built with forged internals with TT kits as we speak and all of them look nearly finished so im looking foward to the info they will supply for us.
Lucky for me one of them is buing built in a shop about 15min away so i can drop in and check it out when its finished!!!!
Hopefuly in 2 or 3 weeks when the crawford plenum i ordered from them gets in they will have the car done so i can pick their brains!!!