I am not saying its bad, i just want to know more about it, and dont feel like reading 18 pages worth of threads.

Why is this becoming so popular? i was set on the vortech, but now everything i read about forced induction, has the words APS written all over it

Couple questions:

Why is this better then the Greddy system?
Wasnt sure why APS, said rods would be needed? Now, for my last question, for a daily driver what would be better,
VORTECH with stock internals, or a APS TT System with stock internals?

Does the APS need tunning? or can it just be run out of the box.



Thanks,
Jordan

 

IMO, there are at least three reasons why the APS kit looks to be a winner (keeping in mind that it's not available yet):

(1) Part quality (ie. very nice turbos, bov, fuel system, etc)
(2) Fuel/timing management
(3) 8 psi out of the box

The only potential downside I see is that you won't be able to tune it yourself.

I don't believe APS is saying that new rods are a requirement for the kit but rather that if you want full peace of mind at 8+ psi in a daily driven TT you should view the rods as the weakest link.

--Steve

 

I think they recommend rods because the kit runs at a higher psi then normally used by other kits. There have been a few rod failures with boost around 6.5 psi....this is why the are mentioning the rods.
With regard to tuning you have to have it tuned by a APS approved vendor who has a load based dyno (Mustang). This is a real stumbling block for this kit......with so few dealers in the States I think they will sell far fewer kits than they would if they set it up as a base tune in the box that comes with the kit...just like Greddy,Vortech, Stillen,etc.

 

I'm sure APS will answer your questions in their thread about the tuning. From what we have been told, the computer will come preloaded with a map that is best suited for your region but it is HIGHLY reccommended to have it dyno tuned to your particular car to optimize the performance... As posted by Peter ipreviously, An APS engineer and tuner will be coming out to the US when the kit is released to create differbt base maps and programs for the different regions and fuel grades that are available. So to answer your question, yes, they will be preloaded with a base map...
Jason

 

It's better than GReddy because it's more expensive, and you get what you pay... I think it's a more complete solution than GReddy. The big turbos in the greddy leave lots of room for upgrading, but the kit itself has some documented complaints.

The connecting rods have been the traditional first point of failure on this engine with large amounts of power. The crankshaft appears to be fairly strong and most people are being very conservative on the tuning to protect the pistons. The connecting rods have been failing with close to 500 horsepower (about twice stock) at the crankshaft. Nissan designed the Z as a near 300 HP car, not a near 500 HP car. Doh! APS is saying that a proper tune and forged rods will protect your motor from anything close to stock boost. Any kit can run into this problem, supercharger or turbo.

Jordan, my Z is my daily car and I don't have the luxury (or cash supply) of adding FI quite yet. However, I would like to in the future and have followed the discussions thoroughly. The Vortech system with stock internals will be less expensive than the APS system and is proven to work. For the same level of boost, I would expect the APS system to be more efficient and produce more torque than the Vortech. The APS system would also have a higher ceiling for maximum power, pending new internals of course.

For me, I would wait and get the APS over Vortech, but that's also influenced by future plans for the car. Not necessarily immediate ones.

 

im starting to think that,

i dont want to wait at least 6 months for this to be avalable on my g35, so i think the vortech would be a better solution, in my case. I am also extremely lucky that I live in LA and have some of the best tunners, and installers in the country.

I know for a fact that i would never be able to add new internals into this car, just dont have the funds for it.

I Could spend 7k at the most, and i think about 400rwhp is enough, and easy to do with the vortech system.

It all comes down to what you want, i dont want to deal with the headache of extreme tunning, and a re building an engine, and dont have 15k to put into an engine it self.


Thanks,
Jordan

Do you guys agree that for my case, a vortech would suit me best?

 

With what you just posted, I certainly agree. Now, I know a few people, well at least Zimbo I think, have found that 400 isn't really enough for them and have had to toss the supercharger. If that is actually your goal (and kinda the limit, because of internals), then I think you will see very similar performance at a lower cost for the Vortech. Good luck, it will be fun!

 

You guys also have to remember that 7 lbs of boost on a Vortech blower is not the same as 7 lbs of boost on lets say a T04? They may have more boost but it may create less air per psi of boost

 

thanks usafa, i hope it will.

 

Hey Jordan thanks for your post and interest in the APS TT..........now to your question.

The APS TT system is no problem to be run "out of the box" with a computer map developed around 6 to 7 psi and 91 octane fuel..........APS techs will develop these maps in the US (California) to ensure safe and reliable power on 91 octane fuel.

Thanks

Peter

 

Thanks Steve and this is exactly what we currently believe to be the truth............if a customer wants to utilise a higher boost presure on 93/94 octane fuel then that fine.......though the con rods are the weakest link (from all that we have read on this forum) and this should be considered by the owner previous to upping the turbo pressure........... at this power level a set of strong con rods would be a good investment.

On 91 octane fuel and with a 10.3:1 static comp ratio I believe that 6 to 7 PSI turbo pressure is about the limit before you start to run into engine detonation problems, continual detonation will cause piston damage, big end end bearing damage, and in severe cases complete con rod failure.

Bottom line with a dead stock engine keep the boost pressure sensible and consider the fuel octane and con rod strength before going crazy with the boost pressure..........this way the engine should be very reliable as an daily driver.

Peter

 

I'm only trying to keep forum members informed that you can't safely run the stock engine at high boost pressure on 91 octane fuel (around 6 to 7 psi is about the maximum safe limit) now it's a different story when you move to 94/94 octane fuel........... there is more scope to run increased turbo pressure before running into engine detonation.

The con rod failure problem is now starting to become an issue on some S/C and TT cars which are running fairly high turbo pressure (hence higher cylinder pressures) with the stock engine so I just want Z owners to be aware of the potential con rod problem.............nothing more nothing less.

If the engine is tuned professionally by a competent tuner to suit the fuel octane this should enhance engine durability...........or at least minimize the potential for piston and con rod failure.

I've not yet seen a broken Z con rod to date and I would prefer not to.

That said, the best method of minimizing the risk of engine detonation (piston and conrod failure) on 91 octane fuel is to package the most efficient intercooling possible and to custom tune the engine to have optimum ignition timing, air/fuel ratios and boost pressure.

Thanks

Peter

 

The important issue to remember is that no centrifugal S/C system will ever produce anything like the low to mid range power of a well developed TT system be it APS or Greddy etc, etc,.............and the intercooled TT system will always have the potential to go to a much greater power level down the path.......... should you choose to build the engine and start to run bigger boost.

Thanks

Peter

 

Very well said and this is absolutely 100% true.....you really need to look at the mass air flow at a given pressure ratio (boost).....it's possible that 2 turbos may well deliver far greater mass air flow at 6 psi than a centrifugal S/C say at 9 psi....and we all know that high power equates to air and fuel combusted efficiently......the greater the mass air flow and therefore fuel combusted the higher the power generated.

Peter

APS

 

Garrett Water Cooled Ball-Bearing Turbos

 

if i could get 6 grand to get me a APS system i would in a heart beat, but as sad as it is to say, 8k is alot for me to put into FI.

 

AS i have done a fair bit of in depth study on these two kits i'll lay out how i see the clear advantage of the APS kit over the greddy kit.

first you have the turbos ...Greddy is using the mitsubishi td05 18g turbo which are quite large however necessary to provide sufficient cfm @ lower boost pressures. 580 cfm max at about 20 psi to be exact. these turbos are conventional journal bearing oil cooled turbos.

APS is using garrett Ball Bearing turbos which are both water and oil cooled which gives a huge advantage to efficiency and spool time. Although the exact model turbo is unknown keep in mind that whatever turbo it may be due to its ball bearing cartridge it can only out perform a standard journal bearing turbo.

Greddy has used an existing intercooler and sort of worked the kit around it ...best guess here is cost savings however this requires the removal of the front bumber bar as well as relocation of the airbag sensors. the plumbing from the compressor housings to the intercooler inlets is also not the best design and simply was made to work around the existing intercooler.

APS has come at this with a much better angle....by designing the intercooler specifically for the 350z this has allowed the most efficient plumbing system of equal length plumbing from the compressor to the intercooler on both left and right side turbos. This is a huge advantage when factoring in pressure drop within the system. this also allows you to retain the stock factory bumper bar.

Keep in mind there is a big price difference between the two kits in their stock forms however when you look more closely the price gap is really next to nothing ....

greddy kits are getting very cheap about 5600 bucks i believe ive seen them with the inter cooler however to run anywhere near APS power levels you must purchase a Blow off valve, Profec E 01 boost controller, custom fuel system and a wideband AF guage for tuning.

Bov $250
Profec e01 $500
Fuel system $400
Wideband $500

bare minimum 1650 in upgrades not including plenty of labour to install

so APS 7499 greddy 5600 + 1650 or $7250

When you factor in installation of the aps kit vs installation of the greddy kit with the extras you can see the two kits cost roughly the same and for the same cost which one offers more value for your dollar? hint APS

keep in mind the APS kit comes with a BOV does not require an after market boost controller like the greddy kit does (profec e01) comes standard with an upgraded fuel system and does not require a wideband af guage.

if you do not purchace these extra items for the greddy kit you wll be stuck @ 5 psi boost around 320 330 whp which looks to be nowhere near enough for anybody running the greddy kit.

the fuel system that comes with the APS kit is a testement to their engineering. Many an engine has blown due to lean conditions. Virtually everybody runing the greddy kit have discovered that the factory fuel system is simply inadequate to supply enough fuel for higher boost pressures.

This is something APS realized and rather than leaving it up to the end user to figure out some way to upgrade the fuel system they have engineered a complete fuel system upgrade that comes standard with their kit and will support boost pressure to 12 psi.(built motor of course)

the APS fuel injectors are also designed to plug directly in to the factory wiring looms rather than having to cut and solder in the injectors for the greddy kit.

As you can see for roughly the same price the APS kit offers the most technologically advanced turbos with the highest quality parts and the most complete Turbo kit on the market with almost 2 years testing under its belt.

In summary that is why the APS system is so great

 

THANKS!!!!!!!

I wanted to thank you for the time, and work to write that all up. Best of all it all made sense.

If i had the money im 100% sure i would go with APS. However i dont have that much money for f/i.

As my dad said once....

He has a "caviar apatite on a hamburger budget”

That describes the way the APS is with me.

If anyone knows how to get the APS installed and tunned for 6.5k let me know.

I also dont want to wait 6 months for this kit to be avalable on a G35..

Once again, VORTECH HERE I COME.

Thanks
Jordan

 

No problem!!!!!

You must ask yourself this question though .... If you have 6500 bucks to spend then you may want to factor in this option and that is time.

In time you will have the extra money to purchase the aps.

You must then ask your self is the aps kit worth the extra money and time?

only you can decide however many people are getting rid of their superchargers and puchasing turbos instead due to their superior power capabilities.

You may find that after you have spent 6500 on a blower that it was the worst 6500 bucks you ever spent and may regret the decision.

Im not saying that this will happen just saying its a possibility.

There have been many times in my life where i spent a lesser amount of money on an item only to be dissappointed later that i didnt spend a little more for the higher quality item.

When it comes to modifying the 2nd most expensive item you may ever purchase in your life (1st is typically a house) you may be much happier in the long run if you spend a little more and have the reliable power that you are looking for with unlimited potential for more power in the future (Peter has said on a built motor the turbos will be capable of supporting over 700 horsepower!)

 

that is true, however my car is a lease, and i am probaly going to end up selling the car with all the stuff on it.

I dont think this matter has been discused.
How much would it cost to have the kit installed and tunned?