Iron vs Aluminum blocks
09-20-2004, 09:20 PM
#41
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Originally posted by Enron Exec
Ooops, let me make a slight clarification on my part. A short block is the bottom end, no matter if its AL or Fe. A long block is both the bottom end and the head(s).
Ooops, let me make a slight clarification on my part. A short block is the bottom end, no matter if its AL or Fe. A long block is both the bottom end and the head(s).
BTW As my gift to you, heres the Best Motorsports Drift Bible video I just found on some site:
http://www.ircuser.org/files1/DriftBible.wmv
Last edited by G35sDriver; 09-20-2004 at 09:23 PM.
09-20-2004, 09:23 PM
#42
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Originally posted by Chi-TownWarrior
GQ.....Myrtle Beach.....about 2hr from Char.
Shopdog......
Electric conductivity is proportional to the free motion of outter shell electrons, since Fe has more it allows for better conduction. You use copper like it is substitutable for Al, but in truth coppers elemental properties are more closely related to Fe. Look at a simple periodic table. Atomic weight and even the idea that d electrons are involved make those properties so. Do your simple experiment with electricity instead of heat and find out what one has the higher conductivity that way. Your heat way does not prove your point for many reasons. First is the fact that the better conductor will also conduct better to the air. The worse one will hold heat and give you a longer amount of dissapation time not meaning a lower temp. Those things depend not only on conduction but surface area. The surface area will determain the amount of heat dissapated to the air and you. Take the heat capacity of the metals, Al's is way too high meaning it will store up heat and heat up way too fast making it warp.
GQ.....Myrtle Beach.....about 2hr from Char.
Shopdog......
Electric conductivity is proportional to the free motion of outter shell electrons, since Fe has more it allows for better conduction. You use copper like it is substitutable for Al, but in truth coppers elemental properties are more closely related to Fe. Look at a simple periodic table. Atomic weight and even the idea that d electrons are involved make those properties so. Do your simple experiment with electricity instead of heat and find out what one has the higher conductivity that way. Your heat way does not prove your point for many reasons. First is the fact that the better conductor will also conduct better to the air. The worse one will hold heat and give you a longer amount of dissapation time not meaning a lower temp. Those things depend not only on conduction but surface area. The surface area will determain the amount of heat dissapated to the air and you. Take the heat capacity of the metals, Al's is way too high meaning it will store up heat and heat up way too fast making it warp.
Look here for thermal conductivity: http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu...les/thrcn.html
Look here for electrical conductivity:http://www.amm.com/index2.htm?/ref/conduct.HTM
09-20-2004, 09:27 PM
#44
Originally posted by G35sDriver
Ahhh ok, maybe you could answer one more question for me concering blocks, whats the differance between a big block and a small block? Is it just displacment? Sorry to hijack.
BTW As my gift to you, heres the Best Motorsports Drift Bible video I just found on some site:
http://www.ircuser.org/files1/DriftBible.wmv
Ahhh ok, maybe you could answer one more question for me concering blocks, whats the differance between a big block and a small block? Is it just displacment? Sorry to hijack.
BTW As my gift to you, heres the Best Motorsports Drift Bible video I just found on some site:
http://www.ircuser.org/files1/DriftBible.wmv
09-20-2004, 09:35 PM
#45
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Originally posted by G35sDriver
Shopdog, you seem to know something about Physics and Autos, can you make heads or tails of what im talking about? Or is it a lost cause?
Shopdog, you seem to know something about Physics and Autos, can you make heads or tails of what im talking about? Or is it a lost cause?
In other words, if you can cram enough fuel and air into an inefficient engine, you can make more power than you could with a more efficient engine that doesn't burn as much fuel per stroke. *But* MPG will be better for the more efficient engine.
09-22-2004, 09:49 AM
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Look at what Smithtown Nissan did on stock sleeves.
https://my350z.com/forum/showthread....59#post1061759
https://my350z.com/forum/showthread....59#post1061759
09-22-2004, 10:26 AM
#47
Originally posted by Enron Exec
Look at what Smithtown Nissan did on stock sleeves.
https://my350z.com/forum/showthread....59#post1061759
Look at what Smithtown Nissan did on stock sleeves.
https://my350z.com/forum/showthread....59#post1061759
09-22-2004, 11:46 AM
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Originally posted by Kyle(Houston)
Like I have said in the past. The stock sleeves are good for ~800Rwhp w/o a problem. We have done several cars in the 600 Whp range without sleeving and through my contact in Japan....there are TONS of 350's making 700-800 Whp on stock sleeves.
Like I have said in the past. The stock sleeves are good for ~800Rwhp w/o a problem. We have done several cars in the 600 Whp range without sleeving and through my contact in Japan....there are TONS of 350's making 700-800 Whp on stock sleeves.
09-22-2004, 01:31 PM
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Originally posted by G35sDriver
My point is long gone. I just wish he would take down that sig (really is that to much to ask?).
edit: Thanks Enron, that is VERY MUCH appreciated.
Now for some clarification on my part. Do remeber this is a)all theory no facts, b) im a super-newb.
Since Al dissipates more heat than Iron (not even sure how true this is), energy is lost at a higher rate, since heat is a form of energy (waste energy I believe its called). Kinetic energy is lost in the form of heat. Since Iron doesnt soak up as much heat, it wont soak up as much power. And thus, ceteris paribus (all things being equal), Iron cylinders should retain more of the kinetic energy.
Ehh Im not sure I explained it clearly. Maybe someone with a bit more automotive/physics knowledge can explain it better?
My point is long gone. I just wish he would take down that sig (really is that to much to ask?).
edit: Thanks Enron, that is VERY MUCH appreciated.
Now for some clarification on my part. Do remeber this is a)all theory no facts, b) im a super-newb.
Since Al dissipates more heat than Iron (not even sure how true this is), energy is lost at a higher rate, since heat is a form of energy (waste energy I believe its called). Kinetic energy is lost in the form of heat. Since Iron doesnt soak up as much heat, it wont soak up as much power. And thus, ceteris paribus (all things being equal), Iron cylinders should retain more of the kinetic energy.
Ehh Im not sure I explained it clearly. Maybe someone with a bit more automotive/physics knowledge can explain it better?
It's not fair that you were picked on. The basic laws of thermodynamics agrees with what you said.
I think the disagreement some had with your claim has more to do with the practical limitations of the materials in question.
Insulating the heat of combustion such that heat can only escape with exhuast gases would be great theoretically. Unfortunately, the insulating material will eventually reach the point of failure if you don't cool it down to an acceptable operating temp.
So you really have to consider material sciences as well as the laws of thermodynamics when designing an engine. Some efficiency has to be traded off just so that the engine can survive.
--
Jeff
09-22-2004, 04:00 PM
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Originally posted by Kyle(Houston)
Like I have said in the past. The stock sleeves are good for ~800Rwhp w/o a problem. We have done several cars in the 600 Whp range without sleeving and through my contact in Japan....there are TONS of 350's making 700-800 Whp on stock sleeves.
Like I have said in the past. The stock sleeves are good for ~800Rwhp w/o a problem. We have done several cars in the 600 Whp range without sleeving and through my contact in Japan....there are TONS of 350's making 700-800 Whp on stock sleeves.
09-22-2004, 05:07 PM
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first, lemme say this is the stupidest ****ing argument i've ever heard of. aluminum conducts heat better than iron(heats and cools faster). that is why radiators and and ic's are made of alum. but it doesn't matter what block you have, they'll retain the same amount of heat. eventually the block reaches an equilibrium with the water flowing through it. if you have water at 80deg. and your block at 100deg., the water will heat up a little and the block will cool down a little until they're the exact same temp. it doesn't matter if the block is al. or iron, at a certain point it won't get any hotter because the water is constantly cooling it, and it won't get any cooler cause it can't get any colder than the water. that's why you don't see your water temps jumping up and down, it just stays stuck once you're fully warmed up.
as for sleeving, the stock block is pretty strong, but sleeving strengthens it alot and helps with cylinder head sealing. the aftermarket sleeves are thicker and made of a stronger material than stock. it also creates an attachment to the outer aluminum block, which allows the entire block to reinforce the cylinder walls. the closed deck also gives more surface area allowing for better head gasket sealing. this is made even more effective when you o-ring the block and head. the darton and ge sleeves with the stepped deck are very poor designs. in fact their first designs were flat decked until aebs sued them and they had to go to their current configuration. first you don't get the enhanced sealing of the completely flat deck. secondly you've just created a pool of coolant right at the block/head interface, where just a hint of detonation can completely ruin your motor. lastly, it cools worse than a completely flat deck because you velocity and pressure of the circulating water. the aebs sleeve has ports exactly where the coolant passages in the head are gasket are. so as the water gets pumped, it's directed straight into the cooling passages.
as for sleeving, the stock block is pretty strong, but sleeving strengthens it alot and helps with cylinder head sealing. the aftermarket sleeves are thicker and made of a stronger material than stock. it also creates an attachment to the outer aluminum block, which allows the entire block to reinforce the cylinder walls. the closed deck also gives more surface area allowing for better head gasket sealing. this is made even more effective when you o-ring the block and head. the darton and ge sleeves with the stepped deck are very poor designs. in fact their first designs were flat decked until aebs sued them and they had to go to their current configuration. first you don't get the enhanced sealing of the completely flat deck. secondly you've just created a pool of coolant right at the block/head interface, where just a hint of detonation can completely ruin your motor. lastly, it cools worse than a completely flat deck because you velocity and pressure of the circulating water. the aebs sleeve has ports exactly where the coolant passages in the head are gasket are. so as the water gets pumped, it's directed straight into the cooling passages.
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