turbonetics single turbo or greddy tt?
#41
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Originally posted by g356gear
I wonder how ceramic coating will impact this issue. Should extend the life of the exhaust and provide some more protection.....you would think.
I wonder how ceramic coating will impact this issue. Should extend the life of the exhaust and provide some more protection.....you would think.
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![Frown](https://my350z.com/forum/images/smilies/frown.gif)
The only long term answer for reliable exhaust manifolds is to utilise the correct material in the first place.
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Peter
APS
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This has been a great, very informative thread. In addition to the longevity concerns cited here, I wish Turbonetics would supply a new manifold so that the cats can be retained. I'm subject to my states emissions program, and it's not feasible for me (as I imagine is the case for many people) to rip my car apart every two years (every 1 year for some guys) to get past emissions testing. I don't consider a kit with this requirement 'streetable'.
Peter, if I may ask you one rather awkward question (and I am in no way being confrontational) can you talk a little about what justifies the higher price tag for the APS kit over the GReddy kit? The GReddy kit is more proven in the market, is reportedly very complete, and many shops are more familiar with it's inner-workings.
I'm very interested in going F/I next summer, so I'd like to be as informed as possible about the various products and there's nobody more qualified to speak about the APS kit than you.
Thanks for your time.
Peter, if I may ask you one rather awkward question (and I am in no way being confrontational) can you talk a little about what justifies the higher price tag for the APS kit over the GReddy kit? The GReddy kit is more proven in the market, is reportedly very complete, and many shops are more familiar with it's inner-workings.
I'm very interested in going F/I next summer, so I'd like to be as informed as possible about the various products and there's nobody more qualified to speak about the APS kit than you.
Thanks for your time.
#43
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Originally posted by APS
Thanks and all I was wanted to achieve was to help out forum members with information which has been learnt the hard way by myself over many years of turbocharging.
There's nothing more frustrating than running into a manifold and turbo connection pipe failure (constant cracking and warping of manifolds/constant exhaust leaks) and not knowing how to solve the problem..............this drives the owner insane..............I know this from years of personal experience.
There is no subsitute for high quality ni Resist manifolding on turbocharged engines.
If you take short cuts with turbo manifolds you will end up paying for it big time................eventually you will either give up on the turbo system or spend a small fortune on custom built inconel or 321 stainless steel manifolds.
I just hate to see turbocharging get a bad name through an unfortunate experience............when it comes to turbocharging this is one area that you need to thoroughly investigate before parting with your hard earned money.
Thanks
Peter
Thanks and all I was wanted to achieve was to help out forum members with information which has been learnt the hard way by myself over many years of turbocharging.
There's nothing more frustrating than running into a manifold and turbo connection pipe failure (constant cracking and warping of manifolds/constant exhaust leaks) and not knowing how to solve the problem..............this drives the owner insane..............I know this from years of personal experience.
![Frown](https://my350z.com/forum/images/smilies/frown.gif)
There is no subsitute for high quality ni Resist manifolding on turbocharged engines.
If you take short cuts with turbo manifolds you will end up paying for it big time................eventually you will either give up on the turbo system or spend a small fortune on custom built inconel or 321 stainless steel manifolds.
![Frown](https://my350z.com/forum/images/smilies/frown.gif)
I just hate to see turbocharging get a bad name through an unfortunate experience............when it comes to turbocharging this is one area that you need to thoroughly investigate before parting with your hard earned money.
![Cool](https://my350z.com/forum/images/smilies/cool.gif)
Thanks
Peter
With my engineering degree in my hand, I would still like to understand how the exhaust temperatures are different from an SC to a turbo (a turbo setup like this on where the turbo is not on the manifold). With exhaust flowing through the system of a turbo, it can increase it some, but the main thing that is unclear is with the turbo in the same location as an SC, with both compressing air, is the turbo that much hotter on the exhaust side than the SC to cause this problem with the manifolds?? Also makes you think twice bout turboing if it is so.......as there seems to be no such problems with the manifolds in SC applications and all the extra heat does for an N/A stock engine is wear the engine even more.
#44
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I think I can help you gain a better understanding since Peter explained the most important part people are missing.
"The turbo exhaust manifolds are subject to much higher thermal loads due to increased exhaust back pressure between the exhaust ports and turbocharger."
Basically on a SC, the headers go out through the exhaust and exit quickly. On a Turbo, the exhaust goes to spool the turbo and then out. This causes a higher back pressure versus your usual CAT and thus higher temperatures. I have to assume the temps are less in this single turbo application versus dual but probably not enough to make the headers reliable.
Feel free to fix any errors Peter.
"The turbo exhaust manifolds are subject to much higher thermal loads due to increased exhaust back pressure between the exhaust ports and turbocharger."
Basically on a SC, the headers go out through the exhaust and exit quickly. On a Turbo, the exhaust goes to spool the turbo and then out. This causes a higher back pressure versus your usual CAT and thus higher temperatures. I have to assume the temps are less in this single turbo application versus dual but probably not enough to make the headers reliable.
Feel free to fix any errors Peter.
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Originally posted by 350ed
I think I can help you gain a better understanding since Peter explained the most important part people are missing.
"The turbo exhaust manifolds are subject to much higher thermal loads due to increased exhaust back pressure between the exhaust ports and turbocharger."
Basically on a SC, the headers go out through the exhaust and exit quickly. On a Turbo, the exhaust goes to spool the turbo and then out. This causes a higher back pressure versus your usual CAT and thus higher temperatures. I have to assume the temps are less in this single turbo application versus dual but probably not enough to make the headers reliable.
Feel free to fix any errors Peter.
I think I can help you gain a better understanding since Peter explained the most important part people are missing.
"The turbo exhaust manifolds are subject to much higher thermal loads due to increased exhaust back pressure between the exhaust ports and turbocharger."
Basically on a SC, the headers go out through the exhaust and exit quickly. On a Turbo, the exhaust goes to spool the turbo and then out. This causes a higher back pressure versus your usual CAT and thus higher temperatures. I have to assume the temps are less in this single turbo application versus dual but probably not enough to make the headers reliable.
Feel free to fix any errors Peter.
I can see the large increase in backpressure being a factor when the turbo is located so close to the exhaust ports but I still don't understand why that would factor in here considering the placement downstream of the turbo. You are essentially blowing the exhaust into a turbo that is after the headers, cats, and y pipe. Thats a lot of realestate piping wise...
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Originally posted by APS
The only long term answer for reliable exhaust manifolds is to utilise the correct material in the first place.
Peter
APS
The only long term answer for reliable exhaust manifolds is to utilise the correct material in the first place.
![Cool](https://my350z.com/forum/images/smilies/cool.gif)
Peter
APS
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Well, I think that when a new product is announced without this data people will speculate based on their knowledge, maybe the data should have been released at the same time as the info about the kit to prevent speculation about the effects of the kits on stock parts. I don't blame Peter he just made, what I and others think, were valid points based on his experience.
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Originally posted by westpak
Well, I think that when a new product is announced without this data people will speculate based on their knowledge, maybe the data should have been released at the same time as the info about the kit to prevent speculation about the effects of the kits on stock parts. I don't blame Peter he just made, what I and others think, were valid points based on his experience.
Well, I think that when a new product is announced without this data people will speculate based on their knowledge, maybe the data should have been released at the same time as the info about the kit to prevent speculation about the effects of the kits on stock parts. I don't blame Peter he just made, what I and others think, were valid points based on his experience.
#49
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Originally posted by MIAPLAYA
While I can respect Peter's knowledge of turbo design and his willingness to help the community I do not believe that the wording or insistence of failure used was appropiate. He has already readily said that he is very familiar with Turbonetics and that they know their stuff.
While I can respect Peter's knowledge of turbo design and his willingness to help the community I do not believe that the wording or insistence of failure used was appropiate. He has already readily said that he is very familiar with Turbonetics and that they know their stuff.
I have seen this approach (retaining stock exhaust manifolds) utilised in bolt turbo turbo systems for over 25 years in many different countries and in every instance that I've seen the manifolds fail (crack and distort) simply the stock exhaust manifolds are cast in a lower material and can't cope with the constant heat cycling.
![Frown](https://my350z.com/forum/images/smilies/frown.gif)
Now I have said previously that I have a great deal of respect for Turbonectics and that I know the founder of the business very well and I 'd be the first to say that Turbonectics are a great people...............this discussion however is not about people simply it's about engineering and the stock nissan exhaust manifold reliability when utilised in a turbo application.
![Cool](https://my350z.com/forum/images/smilies/cool.gif)
If Turbonectics think differently to me on this issue then so be it, I don't think any less of the Turbonectics business or people and Brad is a terrific guy............we'll just agree to disagree on this one issue.
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Thanks
Peter
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Just out of curiosity I talked to Doug at Crawford today about the possibility of having stainless 321 1/8 wall headers made. He said it was a no go. The stainless does not have the ability to be shaped to meet the collector like the steel does that they use on their standard headers. I asked if Burns stainless had anything and he said he had tried to source the stainless parts when they originally started their header R & D.....but with no success from anywhere. Doug suggested the best option would be Jet Hot coated thick wall headers. That's the best he could come up with.
I guess stock manifolds or another aftermarket header are the only way to go with the Turbonetics kit. Hopefully they can put the manifold issue to rest with their engineering data MIAPLAYA had mentioned.
I guess stock manifolds or another aftermarket header are the only way to go with the Turbonetics kit. Hopefully they can put the manifold issue to rest with their engineering data MIAPLAYA had mentioned.
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Originally posted by APS
I think you're getting somewhat confused here on this issue. I am not discussing any product that Turbonectics are producing rather I am simply pointing out that if the the stock nissan manifold or manifols are retained within the turbo application..............the Nissan manifolds will be a problem as the stock manifolds are not designed to cope with the extreme thermal loads from turbocharging.
I have seen this approach (retaining stock exhaust manifolds) utilised in bolt turbo turbo systems for over 25 years in many different countries and in every instance that I've seen the manifolds fail (crack and distort) simply the stock exhaust manifolds are cast in a lower material and can't cope with the constant heat cycling.
Now I have said previously that I have a great deal of respect for Turbonectics and that I know the founder of the business very well and I 'd be the first to say that Turbonectics are a great people...............this discussion however is not about people simply it's about engineering and the stock nissan exhaust manifold reliability when utilised in a turbo application.
If Turbonectics think differently to me on this issue then so be it, I don't think any less of the Turbonectics business or people and Brad is a terrific guy............we'll just agree to disagree on this one issue.
Thanks
Peter
I think you're getting somewhat confused here on this issue. I am not discussing any product that Turbonectics are producing rather I am simply pointing out that if the the stock nissan manifold or manifols are retained within the turbo application..............the Nissan manifolds will be a problem as the stock manifolds are not designed to cope with the extreme thermal loads from turbocharging.
I have seen this approach (retaining stock exhaust manifolds) utilised in bolt turbo turbo systems for over 25 years in many different countries and in every instance that I've seen the manifolds fail (crack and distort) simply the stock exhaust manifolds are cast in a lower material and can't cope with the constant heat cycling.
![Frown](https://my350z.com/forum/images/smilies/frown.gif)
Now I have said previously that I have a great deal of respect for Turbonectics and that I know the founder of the business very well and I 'd be the first to say that Turbonectics are a great people...............this discussion however is not about people simply it's about engineering and the stock nissan exhaust manifold reliability when utilised in a turbo application.
![Cool](https://my350z.com/forum/images/smilies/cool.gif)
If Turbonectics think differently to me on this issue then so be it, I don't think any less of the Turbonectics business or people and Brad is a terrific guy............we'll just agree to disagree on this one issue.
![Smilie](https://my350z.com/forum/images/smilies/smile.gif)
Thanks
Peter
#52
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Originally posted by MIAPLAYA
Now that sir, is a statement I can respect. I appreciate you explaining that a little more in detail. To me and several others the whole thread seemed a little awkward. Now that all that has past we can get onto the good stuff. Like making boost....
Now that sir, is a statement I can respect. I appreciate you explaining that a little more in detail. To me and several others the whole thread seemed a little awkward. Now that all that has past we can get onto the good stuff. Like making boost....
![Smilie](https://my350z.com/forum/images/smilies/smile.gif)
No doubt it's always awkward when discussing another turbo design approach and it's more awkward when you know the people/business involved...........hey credit where it's due I always respect people who are having a real go and producing a FI product................simply more choices for the Z community.
![Smilie](https://my350z.com/forum/images/smilies/smile.gif)
I really pleased that a decent business like Turbonectics is producing the Big Single turbo system...............this product will be an excellent alternative to centrifugal supercharger system
![Cool](https://my350z.com/forum/images/smilies/cool.gif)
Hope you enjoy the blast.
![Big Grin](https://my350z.com/forum/images/smilies/biggrin.gif)
Thanks
Peter
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Originally posted by APS
Cool.
No doubt it's always awkward when discussing another turbo design approach and it's more awkward when you know the people/business involved...........hey credit where it's due I always respect people who are having a real go and producing a FI product................simply more choices for the Z community.
I really pleased that a decent business like Turbonectics is producing the Big Single turbo system...............this product will be an excellent alternative to centrifugal supercharger system
Hope you enjoy the blast.
Thanks
Peter
Cool.
![Smilie](https://my350z.com/forum/images/smilies/smile.gif)
No doubt it's always awkward when discussing another turbo design approach and it's more awkward when you know the people/business involved...........hey credit where it's due I always respect people who are having a real go and producing a FI product................simply more choices for the Z community.
![Smilie](https://my350z.com/forum/images/smilies/smile.gif)
I really pleased that a decent business like Turbonectics is producing the Big Single turbo system...............this product will be an excellent alternative to centrifugal supercharger system
![Cool](https://my350z.com/forum/images/smilies/cool.gif)
Hope you enjoy the blast.
![Big Grin](https://my350z.com/forum/images/smilies/biggrin.gif)
Thanks
Peter
![Big Grin](https://my350z.com/forum/images/smilies/biggrin.gif)
![Cool](https://my350z.com/forum/images/smilies/cool.gif)
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Originally posted by MIAPLAYA
I can see the large increase in backpressure being a factor when the turbo is located so close to the exhaust ports but I still don't understand why that would factor in here considering the placement downstream of the turbo. You are essentially blowing the exhaust into a turbo that is after the headers, cats, and y pipe. Thats a lot of realestate piping wise...
I can see the large increase in backpressure being a factor when the turbo is located so close to the exhaust ports but I still don't understand why that would factor in here considering the placement downstream of the turbo. You are essentially blowing the exhaust into a turbo that is after the headers, cats, and y pipe. Thats a lot of realestate piping wise...
I'm interested in Turbonetics response and engineering data on this. Hopefully the temps are low enough since this is a nice option for a lot of people.
#55
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Originally posted by APS
This won't help exhaust manifold life.............in fact it will be even harder on the exhaust manifolds as greater gas temperature wil be retained inside the manifold.............the turbo or turbos will respond more quickly though the manifolds will fail earlier due to the increased thermal load.
The only long term answer for reliable exhaust manifolds is to utilise the correct material in the first place.
Peter
APS
This won't help exhaust manifold life.............in fact it will be even harder on the exhaust manifolds as greater gas temperature wil be retained inside the manifold.............the turbo or turbos will respond more quickly though the manifolds will fail earlier due to the increased thermal load.
![Frown](https://my350z.com/forum/images/smilies/frown.gif)
The only long term answer for reliable exhaust manifolds is to utilise the correct material in the first place.
![Cool](https://my350z.com/forum/images/smilies/cool.gif)
Peter
APS
The heat wouldnt be absorbed by the manifold and it should be sent to the turbo helping it spool quicker.
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Ceramic coatings on exhaust manifolds act as insulation to keep the heat inside the exhaust gases, but they do not protect the manifold themselves from the high exhaust tempertures. For instance if a coating where to reflect 95% of the heat back into the exhaust, it would still allow that 5% of the exhaust gas heat to escape into the manifold itself. If there isnt enough air cooling the manifold from the outside, and there isnt much on the 350Z, sooner or later equalibrium of the manifold and the exhaust gas tempertures would be reached. Once the manifolds cool, they have just cycled a prosses of heat expansion and if this process repeats a definate amount of times an exhaust manifold w/ the wrong materials will fail like Peter said.
This is one of the reasons i picked a centrifugal SC. A single turbo setup is just too difficult to implement on the 350Z. Look at HKS, even they discarded a single turbo for a centrifugal SC. They just implemented a system to optimize the SC gearing to give the centrifugal system early boost almost like a single turbo. Im sorry but a good single turbo on the 350Z is just too cost prohibitive IMO. Go TT.
This is one of the reasons i picked a centrifugal SC. A single turbo setup is just too difficult to implement on the 350Z. Look at HKS, even they discarded a single turbo for a centrifugal SC. They just implemented a system to optimize the SC gearing to give the centrifugal system early boost almost like a single turbo. Im sorry but a good single turbo on the 350Z is just too cost prohibitive IMO. Go TT.
#59
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Enron Exec Wrote:
Ceramic coatings on exhaust manifolds act as insulation to keep the heat inside the exhaust gases, but they do not protect the manifold themselves from the high exhaust tempertures. For instance if a coating where to reflect 95% of the heat back into the exhaust, it would still allow that 5% of the exhaust gas heat to escape into the manifold itself. If there isnt enough air cooling the manifold from the outside, and there isnt much on the 350Z, sooner or later equalibrium of the manifold and the exhaust gas tempertures would be reached. Once the manifolds cool, they have just cycled a prosses of heat expansion and if this process repeats a definate amount of times an exhaust manifold w/ the wrong materials will fail like Peter said.
This is one of the reasons i picked a centrifugal SC. A single turbo setup is just too difficult to implement on the 350Z. Look at HKS, even they discarded a single turbo for a centrifugal SC. They just implemented a system to optimize the SC gearing to give the centrifugal system early boost almost like a single turbo. Im sorry but a good single turbo on the 350Z is just too cost prohibitive IMO. Go TT.
Are you saying that even if we reduce the temps by 95%, that the 5% heat will still heat the manifolds all the way up to the 100% level it will just take longer to happen?
I know it is hard to do but people are doing it. Look at TopSecret.
Ceramic coatings on exhaust manifolds act as insulation to keep the heat inside the exhaust gases, but they do not protect the manifold themselves from the high exhaust tempertures. For instance if a coating where to reflect 95% of the heat back into the exhaust, it would still allow that 5% of the exhaust gas heat to escape into the manifold itself. If there isnt enough air cooling the manifold from the outside, and there isnt much on the 350Z, sooner or later equalibrium of the manifold and the exhaust gas tempertures would be reached. Once the manifolds cool, they have just cycled a prosses of heat expansion and if this process repeats a definate amount of times an exhaust manifold w/ the wrong materials will fail like Peter said.
This is one of the reasons i picked a centrifugal SC. A single turbo setup is just too difficult to implement on the 350Z. Look at HKS, even they discarded a single turbo for a centrifugal SC. They just implemented a system to optimize the SC gearing to give the centrifugal system early boost almost like a single turbo. Im sorry but a good single turbo on the 350Z is just too cost prohibitive IMO. Go TT.
Are you saying that even if we reduce the temps by 95%, that the 5% heat will still heat the manifolds all the way up to the 100% level it will just take longer to happen?
I know it is hard to do but people are doing it. Look at TopSecret.
Last edited by mchapman; 10-10-2004 at 07:02 PM.