Standalone ECU for turbo options?
10-12-2004, 11:44 PM
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Standalone ECU for turbo options?
Hmm..so yea..in the process of receiving my turbo kit...slowly gathering up the items to build the block. I was searching around the web and was finding that there are no standalone units for the Z or G with a basemap yet. I considered the following( HKS F-CON V PRO, Apex Power FC, AEM EMS, and some non-mainstream engine management brands.) So far the only one i found the closest was the HKS FCON V pro because it had the 350Z harness for over $600!!! Yet again no base map but u could get a blank FCON for arpud 1200 msrp.
WOndering if any guys in here have a standalone unit and which one? Is it worth waiting for a certain one to come out that hasn't yet or is it worth getting one without a base map...yet i know it would involve alot of tuning.
Also owners with piggybacks...can you share your perspectives between piggybacks and standalones and if you think piggybacks are sufficient enough? Thanks in advance for the input guys!
WOndering if any guys in here have a standalone unit and which one? Is it worth waiting for a certain one to come out that hasn't yet or is it worth getting one without a base map...yet i know it would involve alot of tuning.
Also owners with piggybacks...can you share your perspectives between piggybacks and standalones and if you think piggybacks are sufficient enough? Thanks in advance for the input guys!
10-13-2004, 08:06 AM
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well so far...someone correct me if i'm wrong..there are only about 3-4 shops that are authorized tuners. 2 i know of is SP engineering and R&D Dyno in Gardena. Power FC the only one i know of so far is XS Engineering.
Honestly even if i did have the software i wouldn't know what to do with it =). I thought the AEM EMS was under development?
*add* does anyone know which company is going to release the first true plug and play unit?
Honestly even if i did have the software i wouldn't know what to do with it =). I thought the AEM EMS was under development?
*add* does anyone know which company is going to release the first true plug and play unit?
10-13-2004, 10:02 AM
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PHUNK is a member on this board. He is an authorized HKS Fcon tuner and vendor. He has the system on his car and has put down 450 rwhp on a stock bottom end. Maybe PM him for info.
10-13-2004, 10:50 AM
#5
HKS is the only workable option. Personally, I would never buy a stand-alone that wasnt user tunable as an option. That's just me. But I dont want to pay someone $300-$500 to tune my car everytime I need to make some change.
The eManage is a great unit, and its vastly superior to an AFC. I wouldnt dare use an AFC on the TT kits. If you are planning on running 400whp, I would stick with eManage. Some folks are using emanage successfully up to 600whp!...and I've seen 750whp running eManage.
The eManage is a great unit, and its vastly superior to an AFC. I wouldnt dare use an AFC on the TT kits. If you are planning on running 400whp, I would stick with eManage. Some folks are using emanage successfully up to 600whp!...and I've seen 750whp running eManage.
10-13-2004, 07:19 PM
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Originally posted by gq_626
HKS is the only workable option. Personally, I would never buy a stand-alone that wasnt user tunable as an option. That's just me. But I dont want to pay someone $300-$500 to tune my car everytime I need to make some change.
The eManage is a great unit, and its vastly superior to an AFC. I wouldnt dare use an AFC on the TT kits. If you are planning on running 400whp, I would stick with eManage. Some folks are using emanage successfully up to 600whp!...and I've seen 750whp running eManage.
HKS is the only workable option. Personally, I would never buy a stand-alone that wasnt user tunable as an option. That's just me. But I dont want to pay someone $300-$500 to tune my car everytime I need to make some change.
The eManage is a great unit, and its vastly superior to an AFC. I wouldnt dare use an AFC on the TT kits. If you are planning on running 400whp, I would stick with eManage. Some folks are using emanage successfully up to 600whp!...and I've seen 750whp running eManage.
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10-14-2004, 12:29 PM
#8
Supposedly the Unichip is a stand-alone...as is the HKS Pro-F-Con.
Now, technically, neither is a stand-alone, since the stock ECU remains. HOWEVER, these units completely disregard the signals from the ECU, and so the ECU still thinks its running the car, but the Unichip and Pro F-Con are actually controlling everything.
It is BETTER than a true stand-alone, since you get to keep you power windows, ABS, guages, etc....etc...
Now, technically, neither is a stand-alone, since the stock ECU remains. HOWEVER, these units completely disregard the signals from the ECU, and so the ECU still thinks its running the car, but the Unichip and Pro F-Con are actually controlling everything.
It is BETTER than a true stand-alone, since you get to keep you power windows, ABS, guages, etc....etc...
10-14-2004, 02:23 PM
#10
Originally posted by gq_626
Supposedly the Unichip is a stand-alone...as is the HKS Pro-F-Con.
Now, technically, neither is a stand-alone, since the stock ECU remains. HOWEVER, these units completely disregard the signals from the ECU, and so the ECU still thinks its running the car, but the Unichip and Pro F-Con are actually controlling everything.
It is BETTER than a true stand-alone, since you get to keep you power windows, ABS, guages, etc....etc...
Supposedly the Unichip is a stand-alone...as is the HKS Pro-F-Con.
Now, technically, neither is a stand-alone, since the stock ECU remains. HOWEVER, these units completely disregard the signals from the ECU, and so the ECU still thinks its running the car, but the Unichip and Pro F-Con are actually controlling everything.
It is BETTER than a true stand-alone, since you get to keep you power windows, ABS, guages, etc....etc...
The original Ecu thinks it is running the motor & is adjusting the inlet cams accordingly, but the spark & fuel is being controlled by the F Con & these could be way different to what the stock Ecu is programed to do at that same moment in time.
This is unlikely to be a problem on an FI motor but I can assure you it is a big problem on big cam, high compression NA motor.
A highly modified NA needs a full standalone or a very knowlageble person to reflash the OE Ecu to get the best out of this motor.
10-14-2004, 07:10 PM
#12
Originally posted by 350Now
Does the HKS F-Con or the UNICHIP handles the throttle by wire? I think if I re-call correctly the HKS still depends on the factory ECU to do this.
Does the HKS F-Con or the UNICHIP handles the throttle by wire? I think if I re-call correctly the HKS still depends on the factory ECU to do this.
To the best of my knowlage the Unichip is a piggyback which is only altering the crank angle & Maf sensor INPUTS.
10-14-2004, 08:00 PM
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Originally posted by Nathan
The HKS F-Con as gq_626 has pointed out, has full control of the spark & fuel and can be set to take over at a certain load or rpm point. All other operations are still controled by the OE Ecu.
To the best of my knowlage the Unichip is a piggyback which is only altering the crank angle & Maf sensor INPUTS.
The HKS F-Con as gq_626 has pointed out, has full control of the spark & fuel and can be set to take over at a certain load or rpm point. All other operations are still controled by the OE Ecu.
To the best of my knowlage the Unichip is a piggyback which is only altering the crank angle & Maf sensor INPUTS.
10-16-2004, 11:17 PM
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copied from HKS website:
"The HKS F-CON V Pro is a fully featured standalone engine management system that connects as easily as a "piggy-back" fuel and timing controller. As modifications to a vehicle are made, the need for fuel and timing adjustments becomes critical for performance and safety. The F-CON V Pro with its 32x32 resolution for both fuel and timing maps is the optimal solution. The F-CON V Pro can control up to eight injectors and D Jetro or L Jetro setups. --- Injectors can be set to fire as batch, sequentially or staged. The F-CON V Pro can also read drive by wire vehicles. Programming is done via the HKS Power Writer software; which only Certified HKS Pro Dealers have access to. The HKS Power Writer software for the F-CON V Pro has some very unique abilities to simplify setup and tuning. Via the vehicle start up menus most Japanese import cars can be easily started by selecting the vehicle’s parameters (Make, Model, Engine and etc). Tuning is simplified due to the A/F Feedback control; where a target A/F value can be input and the F-CON V Pro will adjust fuel automatically. Also full data logging capabilities are built into the F-Con V Pro Power Writer software. All major vehicle conditions including; speed, rpm, water temperature, intake temperature, timing, boost, injector duty cycle and etc can be logged to an HKS Pro Dealer’s computer."
"The HKS F-CON V Pro is a fully featured standalone engine management system that connects as easily as a "piggy-back" fuel and timing controller. As modifications to a vehicle are made, the need for fuel and timing adjustments becomes critical for performance and safety. The F-CON V Pro with its 32x32 resolution for both fuel and timing maps is the optimal solution. The F-CON V Pro can control up to eight injectors and D Jetro or L Jetro setups. --- Injectors can be set to fire as batch, sequentially or staged. The F-CON V Pro can also read drive by wire vehicles. Programming is done via the HKS Power Writer software; which only Certified HKS Pro Dealers have access to. The HKS Power Writer software for the F-CON V Pro has some very unique abilities to simplify setup and tuning. Via the vehicle start up menus most Japanese import cars can be easily started by selecting the vehicle’s parameters (Make, Model, Engine and etc). Tuning is simplified due to the A/F Feedback control; where a target A/F value can be input and the F-CON V Pro will adjust fuel automatically. Also full data logging capabilities are built into the F-Con V Pro Power Writer software. All major vehicle conditions including; speed, rpm, water temperature, intake temperature, timing, boost, injector duty cycle and etc can be logged to an HKS Pro Dealer’s computer."
10-17-2004, 08:01 AM
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First things first:
1. there is no Power FC for the Z
2. Unichip is a piggyback...no drivers in it for fuel or ingition
3. F Con is a standalone...has its own ignition and injector drivers. There is a plug and play harness for the the Z that allows it to be installed. Takes over fuel and timing control, everything else is left up to the stock ecu
4. Any standalone can be used on the Z and hooked up like the HKS...you just will have to wire it yourself and not get a plug and play harness.
5. AEM, Electromotive, GEMS, MOTEC etc all can be used (they all offer universal ecu's, not just car specific ones). Makes no difference if the car is NA or FI. All the normal ecu controls are left in tact (throttle by wire, cold start, idle up when ACis turned on, VDC, TC, etc.). However all fuel and ignition is controlled by the standalone. In this regard it operates as a quasi standlone....wired up like a piggyback, but rather than manipulating signals for fuel and ignition, you are writing those signals.
Given that the VTC system for the cams is solenoid activated (pressure switch), this can easily be controlled by any standalone with powered outputs. Its the programming side that will take time to do.
In all honesty, it makes zero difference which ecu you select...all do the same basic things, and most have features that sound great on paper but will never be utilized. In selecting an ecu, it pays to talk to a knowledgeable, local shop only. Forget the internet jargon and what people say "sucks" or "rules". Talk to local shops and see what they use. Go for ride in cars they have done with their preferred standalones, an make your selection based on the quality of the tune not the specific brand ecu they use. As i said, all the ecu's mentioned and tons more that I have not mentioned perform the same basic functions. Some have some neat features (i.e ability to use high or low impedance injectors, ability to do sequential or batch fire, multiple powered outputs, datalogging included, etc etc). Some of these features might prove essential to you....some may not.
By selecting the ecu by tuner and not brand, you will go a long way towards ensuring that your car runs as it should, and that tech support is local.
Good luck!
1. there is no Power FC for the Z
2. Unichip is a piggyback...no drivers in it for fuel or ingition
3. F Con is a standalone...has its own ignition and injector drivers. There is a plug and play harness for the the Z that allows it to be installed. Takes over fuel and timing control, everything else is left up to the stock ecu
4. Any standalone can be used on the Z and hooked up like the HKS...you just will have to wire it yourself and not get a plug and play harness.
5. AEM, Electromotive, GEMS, MOTEC etc all can be used (they all offer universal ecu's, not just car specific ones). Makes no difference if the car is NA or FI. All the normal ecu controls are left in tact (throttle by wire, cold start, idle up when ACis turned on, VDC, TC, etc.). However all fuel and ignition is controlled by the standalone. In this regard it operates as a quasi standlone....wired up like a piggyback, but rather than manipulating signals for fuel and ignition, you are writing those signals.
Given that the VTC system for the cams is solenoid activated (pressure switch), this can easily be controlled by any standalone with powered outputs. Its the programming side that will take time to do.
In all honesty, it makes zero difference which ecu you select...all do the same basic things, and most have features that sound great on paper but will never be utilized. In selecting an ecu, it pays to talk to a knowledgeable, local shop only. Forget the internet jargon and what people say "sucks" or "rules". Talk to local shops and see what they use. Go for ride in cars they have done with their preferred standalones, an make your selection based on the quality of the tune not the specific brand ecu they use. As i said, all the ecu's mentioned and tons more that I have not mentioned perform the same basic functions. Some have some neat features (i.e ability to use high or low impedance injectors, ability to do sequential or batch fire, multiple powered outputs, datalogging included, etc etc). Some of these features might prove essential to you....some may not.
By selecting the ecu by tuner and not brand, you will go a long way towards ensuring that your car runs as it should, and that tech support is local.
Good luck!
10-17-2004, 09:03 AM
#16
I get so annoyed when people say that FCON V-Pro is a piggy back. haha.
It will totaly run a car without the stock ECU at all. Newer cars like the 350z you CANNOT TAKE OUT THE STOCK ECU or you will loose all kinds of features. This does not mean you are using a piggy back. If anything, the FCON is the ECU now and the stock ecu is the piggy back.
It will totaly run a car without the stock ECU at all. Newer cars like the 350z you CANNOT TAKE OUT THE STOCK ECU or you will loose all kinds of features. This does not mean you are using a piggy back. If anything, the FCON is the ECU now and the stock ecu is the piggy back.
10-17-2004, 07:25 PM
#18
Originally posted by phunk
If anything, the FCON is the ECU now and the stock ecu is the piggy back.
If anything, the FCON is the ECU now and the stock ecu is the piggy back.
Very well put.
Altough I dont subsribe to this...many standalone purists would say the stock ECU needs to go, I disagree. Keep the stock ECU...since I like power windows, traction control, and ABS.
Z1....are you saying that the generic AEM EMS can work with our car....drive by wire and all....but we'd just need to hardware it into the system, vs. using a plug and play harness?
10-20-2004, 05:33 AM
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Originally posted by Silo
I remember reading that there was an issue with the Greddy E-Manage controlling timing on the 350Z. Is this problem solved? Any pointers?
I remember reading that there was an issue with the Greddy E-Manage controlling timing on the 350Z. Is this problem solved? Any pointers?