Sts Turbo
11-22-2004, 08:12 PM
#21
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Originally posted by phunk
its interesting how people say it works "great"
without comparison to a convential turbo in the engine bay system... all i would think you can really say is "it works".
people are to quick to say it works "Great" simply because it makes power... but IMHO "great" should be reserved for something proven efficient maybe or what not.
so the question is does it really work GREAT or does it simply just WORK?
-charles
its interesting how people say it works "great"
without comparison to a convential turbo in the engine bay system... all i would think you can really say is "it works".
people are to quick to say it works "Great" simply because it makes power... but IMHO "great" should be reserved for something proven efficient maybe or what not.
so the question is does it really work GREAT or does it simply just WORK?
-charles
Now to say this approach is flawed would be a gross under statement...............I've never seen any approach that flawed in over 30 years of turbo system design.
Can you imagine how frequently the air cleaner element would become blocked and need replacing or cleaning and this approach would re-define the meaning of Turbo lag unless you ran such a tiny turbo as most of the exhaust gas energy which drives the turbo would be lost well before the turbo.
I sincerely hope this is type of product is NEVER produced for the Z car as it would simply give turbocharging a very bad name in the FI industry.
Peter
APS
11-22-2004, 08:37 PM
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why would you want the turbocharger to sit that far back?
the only thing i can think of is weight distribution, but then the added piping pretty much cancels that out...
the only thing i can think of is weight distribution, but then the added piping pretty much cancels that out...
11-23-2004, 01:01 PM
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**** end Turbo
Originally posted by JimRHIT
was chad kidding?
was chad kidding?
.
11-23-2004, 03:53 PM
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This is a great idea! I did it once to a beater car I had for less than 500 bucks. Just go to a junk yard find a turbo in good shape(don't worry about compressor map matching just try to get one off a motor close to the size of yours)
Cut out your muffler weld on the turbo, run the oil lines, get a muffler shop to bend some pipes back to the front (crush bends are fine), install a rising fuel pressure regulator and finally retard the timing a deg or two with the distrbutor. BAM turbo beater car. It's a blast because you can mess with people and it's cheap.
It does have spool up issues but it still makes more boost down low than a centrifical supercharger. it will work on any OBD I car or truck.
You'd be nuts to put it on a 26k+ car though.
Gary
Cut out your muffler weld on the turbo, run the oil lines, get a muffler shop to bend some pipes back to the front (crush bends are fine), install a rising fuel pressure regulator and finally retard the timing a deg or two with the distrbutor. BAM turbo beater car. It's a blast because you can mess with people and it's cheap.
It does have spool up issues but it still makes more boost down low than a centrifical supercharger. it will work on any OBD I car or truck.
You'd be nuts to put it on a 26k+ car though.
Gary
11-24-2004, 12:52 PM
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I love the way you guys think!!! close the mind!!! every thing sucks just because you dont understand. I know it's wierd but why knock and idea just because it's differnt??
And Peter you were the last person i would expect to bash an idea you seem to be the guy on this fourm giving ppl a chance mostly
http://www.ststurbo.com
With the turbo so far back, don't you get a lot of turbo lag?
No, our turbochargers are sized to operate at this remote location. Just like any turbocharger, once the turbo is up to temperature and in the rpm range for which it was designed to operate. The boost comes on hard and fast. All of our systems will produce full boost below 3000 rpm.
If you were to take a conventional turbo and place it at the rear, you would have lots of lag and consequently, our turbo wouldn't work properly if mounted up front.
Doesn't water get into your engine with the filter mounted down low?
No, even under very wet conditions the filter sheds most all water. Every kit includes a K&N PreCharger which is a "sock" that protects the filter under very dusty or wet conditions. The only thing you don't want to do is completely submerge the filter. This would draw water through the filter and into the intake tubing. For most vehicles that would mean you would have water coming in your doors before you'd have a problem with the turbo's air filter.
If water hits the hot turbo, will it crack?
Seems like it might when you first think about it, however, when I asked the Garrett engineers this questions they just laughed. There is a big difference in water splashing on a hot turbo and submerging it in enough water and fast enough to really cool it down fast. Both the new turbocharged Vette systems and the new Porsche systems sit the turbo down low and exposed to water and anything else that goes under a car.
Plus, our turbos just don't get that hot and when weather conditions are such that there is a lot of water around, you can't push enough boost to get the turbo hot anyway because you'd just spin the tires
And Peter you were the last person i would expect to bash an idea you seem to be the guy on this fourm giving ppl a chance mostly
http://www.ststurbo.com
With the turbo so far back, don't you get a lot of turbo lag?
No, our turbochargers are sized to operate at this remote location. Just like any turbocharger, once the turbo is up to temperature and in the rpm range for which it was designed to operate. The boost comes on hard and fast. All of our systems will produce full boost below 3000 rpm.
If you were to take a conventional turbo and place it at the rear, you would have lots of lag and consequently, our turbo wouldn't work properly if mounted up front.
Doesn't water get into your engine with the filter mounted down low?
No, even under very wet conditions the filter sheds most all water. Every kit includes a K&N PreCharger which is a "sock" that protects the filter under very dusty or wet conditions. The only thing you don't want to do is completely submerge the filter. This would draw water through the filter and into the intake tubing. For most vehicles that would mean you would have water coming in your doors before you'd have a problem with the turbo's air filter.
If water hits the hot turbo, will it crack?
Seems like it might when you first think about it, however, when I asked the Garrett engineers this questions they just laughed. There is a big difference in water splashing on a hot turbo and submerging it in enough water and fast enough to really cool it down fast. Both the new turbocharged Vette systems and the new Porsche systems sit the turbo down low and exposed to water and anything else that goes under a car.
Plus, our turbos just don't get that hot and when weather conditions are such that there is a lot of water around, you can't push enough boost to get the turbo hot anyway because you'd just spin the tires
Last edited by 1G'; 11-24-2004 at 12:59 PM.
11-24-2004, 01:15 PM
#32
oh... i was expecting their website to say:
With the turbo so far back, don't you get a lot of turbo lag?
Yes it lags like a mother****er. The turbocharger doesnt get to utilize the advantage of exhaust heat and velocity to increase efficiency and the intercooler pipes are so long that it has to generate tons of air to pressurize them with the engine. But who wants good spool anyway all it does is spin the tires. We just use very little turbos with low HP potential to try and cover up these negative effects. Unforunatly with this inefficient system you will probably have a very hard time even getting the max HP potential out of the turbocharger we use.
Doesn't water get into your engine with the filter mounted down low?
No it doesnt get water, but plan on cleaning your filter twice a week and replacing it every oil change.
If water hits the hot turbo, will it crack?
No it wont crack. But being under the car you can expect heavy and advanced corrosion on the turbo.
=================
once again... there is a huge difference between "it works" and "it works great". If this system was so superior... what is wrong with the OEM engineers? Why are these fools mounting the turbos so close to the engine?
I love how all these forums love to use Corky Bells "Maximum Boost" book as their bible for forced induction... people quote it to the extreme and try and follow every guideline or recommendation writen... but the second some cheap and easy solution comes out... the general population wants to just ignore it and take the easy/cheap path.
So what.. it WORKS. Big deal. Lots of things will simply work. That doesnt change the fact that it is still the most poor mans, ghetto, cheap, inefficient, R&D lacking, quality ignorant, and just plain WEAK setup available.
Can you think of WORSE way to turbocharge a car and still have it work?
Gimme a break. ALL you can say is "IT WORKS". Thats it... there is nothing else positive to say about it. It just works.
With the turbo so far back, don't you get a lot of turbo lag?
Yes it lags like a mother****er. The turbocharger doesnt get to utilize the advantage of exhaust heat and velocity to increase efficiency and the intercooler pipes are so long that it has to generate tons of air to pressurize them with the engine. But who wants good spool anyway all it does is spin the tires. We just use very little turbos with low HP potential to try and cover up these negative effects. Unforunatly with this inefficient system you will probably have a very hard time even getting the max HP potential out of the turbocharger we use.
Doesn't water get into your engine with the filter mounted down low?
No it doesnt get water, but plan on cleaning your filter twice a week and replacing it every oil change.
If water hits the hot turbo, will it crack?
No it wont crack. But being under the car you can expect heavy and advanced corrosion on the turbo.
=================
once again... there is a huge difference between "it works" and "it works great". If this system was so superior... what is wrong with the OEM engineers? Why are these fools mounting the turbos so close to the engine?
I love how all these forums love to use Corky Bells "Maximum Boost" book as their bible for forced induction... people quote it to the extreme and try and follow every guideline or recommendation writen... but the second some cheap and easy solution comes out... the general population wants to just ignore it and take the easy/cheap path.
So what.. it WORKS. Big deal. Lots of things will simply work. That doesnt change the fact that it is still the most poor mans, ghetto, cheap, inefficient, R&D lacking, quality ignorant, and just plain WEAK setup available.
Can you think of WORSE way to turbocharge a car and still have it work?
Gimme a break. ALL you can say is "IT WORKS". Thats it... there is nothing else positive to say about it. It just works.
Last edited by phunk; 11-24-2004 at 01:18 PM.
11-24-2004, 01:30 PM
#33
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Rear turbo
Originally posted by 1G'
I love the way you guys think!!! close the mind!!! every thing sucks just because you dont understand. I know it's wierd but why knock and idea just because it's differnt??
And Peter you were the last person i would expect to bash an idea you seem to be the guy on this fourm giving ppl a chance mostly
http://www.ststurbo.com
With the turbo so far back, don't you get a lot of turbo lag?
No, our turbochargers are sized to operate at this remote location. Just like any turbocharger, once the turbo is up to temperature and in the rpm range for which it was designed to operate. The boost comes on hard and fast. All of our systems will produce full boost below 3000 rpm.
If you were to take a conventional turbo and place it at the rear, you would have lots of lag and consequently, our turbo wouldn't work properly if mounted up front.
Doesn't water get into your engine with the filter mounted down low?
No, even under very wet conditions the filter sheds most all water. Every kit includes a K&N PreCharger which is a "sock" that protects the filter under very dusty or wet conditions. The only thing you don't want to do is completely submerge the filter. This would draw water through the filter and into the intake tubing. For most vehicles that would mean you would have water coming in your doors before you'd have a problem with the turbo's air filter.
If water hits the hot turbo, will it crack?
Seems like it might when you first think about it, however, when I asked the Garrett engineers this questions they just laughed. There is a big difference in water splashing on a hot turbo and submerging it in enough water and fast enough to really cool it down fast. Both the new turbocharged Vette systems and the new Porsche systems sit the turbo down low and exposed to water and anything else that goes under a car.
Plus, our turbos just don't get that hot and when weather conditions are such that there is a lot of water around, you can't push enough boost to get the turbo hot anyway because you'd just spin the tires
I love the way you guys think!!! close the mind!!! every thing sucks just because you dont understand. I know it's wierd but why knock and idea just because it's differnt??
And Peter you were the last person i would expect to bash an idea you seem to be the guy on this fourm giving ppl a chance mostly
http://www.ststurbo.com
With the turbo so far back, don't you get a lot of turbo lag?
No, our turbochargers are sized to operate at this remote location. Just like any turbocharger, once the turbo is up to temperature and in the rpm range for which it was designed to operate. The boost comes on hard and fast. All of our systems will produce full boost below 3000 rpm.
If you were to take a conventional turbo and place it at the rear, you would have lots of lag and consequently, our turbo wouldn't work properly if mounted up front.
Doesn't water get into your engine with the filter mounted down low?
No, even under very wet conditions the filter sheds most all water. Every kit includes a K&N PreCharger which is a "sock" that protects the filter under very dusty or wet conditions. The only thing you don't want to do is completely submerge the filter. This would draw water through the filter and into the intake tubing. For most vehicles that would mean you would have water coming in your doors before you'd have a problem with the turbo's air filter.
If water hits the hot turbo, will it crack?
Seems like it might when you first think about it, however, when I asked the Garrett engineers this questions they just laughed. There is a big difference in water splashing on a hot turbo and submerging it in enough water and fast enough to really cool it down fast. Both the new turbocharged Vette systems and the new Porsche systems sit the turbo down low and exposed to water and anything else that goes under a car.
Plus, our turbos just don't get that hot and when weather conditions are such that there is a lot of water around, you can't push enough boost to get the turbo hot anyway because you'd just spin the tires
Hey Peter (@ APS) maybe you should abandon the ST front mount "sidewinder" design and go this route, you could call it the "Asswinder".
11-24-2004, 01:41 PM
#34
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Re: Rear turbo
Originally posted by G3po
Hey Peter (@ APS) maybe you should abandon the ST front mount "sidewinder" design and go this route, you could call it the "Asswinder".
Hey Peter (@ APS) maybe you should abandon the ST front mount "sidewinder" design and go this route, you could call it the "Asswinder".
though I'm not saying another word on this issue. Thanks
Peter
11-24-2004, 06:57 PM
#36
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I acutally photo-copied a magazine article about this rear mounted turbo because it seemed so crazy. I think it was like a hot rodding magazine and they installed it on a Camaro. Anyway, their explanation for the lag had something to do with the pressure and then the length of piping back to the engine would actually cool down so no intercooler is necessary. Anyway, it was so odd, I had to copy it from someone and ponder their ideas later. But hey, they made it into a magazine....I guess they were as curious as we all are.
And some people complain about the Borla exhaust having too many pieces under the car!!!!
And some people complain about the Borla exhaust having too many pieces under the car!!!!
11-24-2004, 09:08 PM
#37
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It has nothing to do with being close minded. It has everything to do with being practical, and understanding when innovation does not always make something better. Instead of the turbo being located, say, within 6-8 feet (via piping) of the throttle body, you now have it ~20 + feet away. "Optimally sized" turbos or not, its going to spool slower. Especially true of you were to put an intercooler into the mix. All that airflow now has to travel the entire length of the car, fill the IC, and then gets passed into the TB....fantastic setup, why didn't every engineer in creation think of it first.
Now, as for the housing cracking, I'll agree there....the likelyhood is that it wouldn't. However, all that piping surely will.
For aesthetics, why not just put the turbo in the hatch, or in the passenger seat, and run the piping thrpugh the floorpan?
So back to the question - does it work? Sure will - you are pressurizing air and forcing that air into the combustion chamber....damn straight it will work. Will it work better than a conventionally mounted setup (on this car), or even a single turbo (conventionally mounted). Let the numbers speak for themselves
Now, as for the housing cracking, I'll agree there....the likelyhood is that it wouldn't. However, all that piping surely will.
For aesthetics, why not just put the turbo in the hatch, or in the passenger seat, and run the piping thrpugh the floorpan?
So back to the question - does it work? Sure will - you are pressurizing air and forcing that air into the combustion chamber....damn straight it will work. Will it work better than a conventionally mounted setup (on this car), or even a single turbo (conventionally mounted). Let the numbers speak for themselves
11-25-2004, 06:26 PM
#38
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I think it's just too far away from the engine to be optimal. They should put the turbo where the cat's are now, and use an intercooler, then it would have a similar power curve to the Turbonetics kit.
04-26-2006, 09:42 AM
#39
GM Seemed to like the Idea...
http://www.ststurbo.com/sema_2004
2004 SEMA Show
STS participated in the 2004 SEMA Show as an exhibitor in booth #20444. The show was a huge success! It was great to meet many of the STS Power Dealers and to show the product to the press.
The highlight of the show was award ceremony where STS was given the 2004 Best High Performance Product award.
A close second was Thurdsday morning at the SEMA Proving Grounds where the GTO, Ram Hemi, LS1 Camaro, Chevy 6.0L Truck and Acura Integra performed flawlessly. The cars were driven by professional drivers from the ESPN Russel Racing School. One of the drivers, Patrick McCarthy, said, "These turbo systems spooled quicker than any other turbo I've ever driven. The power comes on smooth and is very controllable, giving a great throttle response."
Finally, here's a link to an article and video clip on Edmunds.com. Click on the SEMA Video Highlights to see the interview with Rick. Watch for us on Hot Rod TV, Two Guys Garage and listen to the Car and Driver radio program to see more on STS at the show.
http://www.ststurbo.com/sema_2004
2004 SEMA Show
STS participated in the 2004 SEMA Show as an exhibitor in booth #20444. The show was a huge success! It was great to meet many of the STS Power Dealers and to show the product to the press.
The highlight of the show was award ceremony where STS was given the 2004 Best High Performance Product award.
A close second was Thurdsday morning at the SEMA Proving Grounds where the GTO, Ram Hemi, LS1 Camaro, Chevy 6.0L Truck and Acura Integra performed flawlessly. The cars were driven by professional drivers from the ESPN Russel Racing School. One of the drivers, Patrick McCarthy, said, "These turbo systems spooled quicker than any other turbo I've ever driven. The power comes on smooth and is very controllable, giving a great throttle response."
Finally, here's a link to an article and video clip on Edmunds.com. Click on the SEMA Video Highlights to see the interview with Rick. Watch for us on Hot Rod TV, Two Guys Garage and listen to the Car and Driver radio program to see more on STS at the show.
04-26-2006, 09:44 AM
#40
Here are some pix of it on a C6 Vette; Shows how it mounts on a low sports car.
http://www.ststurbo.com/c6_corvette_installation_pics
The Filters are way up behind the rear bumpers and should stay dry. The retun piping seems to go over the rear wheels inside the fenders?!? The Turbos are "Way Up" high so to speak, about 6-12" below where most Turbo's mount on standard cars..
http://www.ststurbo.com/c6_corvette_installation_pics
The Filters are way up behind the rear bumpers and should stay dry. The retun piping seems to go over the rear wheels inside the fenders?!? The Turbos are "Way Up" high so to speak, about 6-12" below where most Turbo's mount on standard cars..
Last edited by sq40; 04-26-2006 at 09:47 AM.