Injen Install....Dyno Results
01-11-2003, 02:45 PM
#22
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Just to explain, this is based on what ECU's in general do. I have not gotten the shop manuel yet to work out details for the 350Z but ECU's all do the same job. If any one has the details please jump in.
The various discussions about the ECU shows that there is not a good understanding about them. The ECU takes inputs from the MAF (or other air flow sensor) air temp. air pressure, engine temp, O2 sensor, throtle position, engine RPM and some cases MPH and timing, and adjusts the fuel input to maintain a proper fuel air ratio for the given conditions. When the car is cold, or at WOT (wide open throtle), the ECU runs in open loop mode and makes adjustments based on a set map (probably based on a reference engine). When the car is warmed up the ECU changes to closed loop mode and makes adjustments on the fly to keep emmisons and the fuel air ratio with in limits. When some thing exceeds the limits of one of the sensors (or the preprogramed limits) the ECU will force the operation into the safe mode that was mentioned. The safe mode is sometimees refered to as the limp home mode and was intended for sensor or engine failure conditions and should allow one to limp home. The safe mode can also be triggered by some engine mods, but usually they have to be extreem.
There is a learning function in the ECU however, I have not seen much documentation about the function for any ECU. I suspect that it is a minor adjustment to the canned map based on what the ECU has to adjust over time. Maybe someone in the forum has the details.
The gains in HP by changing the ECU program are usually a result of improving the timing map and / or loosing up the constraints on the emision controls (the manufactors usually are somewhat on the conseravative side). (If the air fuel ratio goes slightly rich more HP can be produced at the expense of fuel usage and higher emissions. The higher emisions maybe take care of by the cat if it is not to rich).
What this means is that most mods will see and immediate improvement (if it is there) and may see more as the ECU lmakes minor adjustments to the canned map based on what it learns.
Since the ECU is making adjustments based on air temp and the like, the ECU is changing the fuel ratio and hence effecting performance (HP) of the engine based on operating conditions. The effect on dyno results is that even though they are corrected since the engine is also making corrections, comparsions between runs are going to vary (maybe not by much) when the enginge temp, air temp and air pressure are different. This can help explain why when people do their best to get good dyno runs, that comparsions between different cars in different locations can vary.
The various discussions about the ECU shows that there is not a good understanding about them. The ECU takes inputs from the MAF (or other air flow sensor) air temp. air pressure, engine temp, O2 sensor, throtle position, engine RPM and some cases MPH and timing, and adjusts the fuel input to maintain a proper fuel air ratio for the given conditions. When the car is cold, or at WOT (wide open throtle), the ECU runs in open loop mode and makes adjustments based on a set map (probably based on a reference engine). When the car is warmed up the ECU changes to closed loop mode and makes adjustments on the fly to keep emmisons and the fuel air ratio with in limits. When some thing exceeds the limits of one of the sensors (or the preprogramed limits) the ECU will force the operation into the safe mode that was mentioned. The safe mode is sometimees refered to as the limp home mode and was intended for sensor or engine failure conditions and should allow one to limp home. The safe mode can also be triggered by some engine mods, but usually they have to be extreem.
There is a learning function in the ECU however, I have not seen much documentation about the function for any ECU. I suspect that it is a minor adjustment to the canned map based on what the ECU has to adjust over time. Maybe someone in the forum has the details.
The gains in HP by changing the ECU program are usually a result of improving the timing map and / or loosing up the constraints on the emision controls (the manufactors usually are somewhat on the conseravative side). (If the air fuel ratio goes slightly rich more HP can be produced at the expense of fuel usage and higher emissions. The higher emisions maybe take care of by the cat if it is not to rich).
What this means is that most mods will see and immediate improvement (if it is there) and may see more as the ECU lmakes minor adjustments to the canned map based on what it learns.
Since the ECU is making adjustments based on air temp and the like, the ECU is changing the fuel ratio and hence effecting performance (HP) of the engine based on operating conditions. The effect on dyno results is that even though they are corrected since the engine is also making corrections, comparsions between runs are going to vary (maybe not by much) when the enginge temp, air temp and air pressure are different. This can help explain why when people do their best to get good dyno runs, that comparsions between different cars in different locations can vary.
01-11-2003, 04:02 PM
#23
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Originally posted by ares
sae changes the HP to a standard amount that can be compared to other runs and other people in different locations with different weather conditions. you will dyno higher with higher pressure(lower altitude) and colder temps.
anyway, its just a rumor that the ECU is changing the program to back down the HP when it notices something new. but it seems to take a little while for it to do it. hence why people that have done true exhaust, and even injen intakes have not gained much, if any hp.
sae changes the HP to a standard amount that can be compared to other runs and other people in different locations with different weather conditions. you will dyno higher with higher pressure(lower altitude) and colder temps.
anyway, its just a rumor that the ECU is changing the program to back down the HP when it notices something new. but it seems to take a little while for it to do it. hence why people that have done true exhaust, and even injen intakes have not gained much, if any hp.
yes....I heard that rumor too, I'm gonna test it next month, (if I dont put another modification before) just in case!
01-11-2003, 04:17 PM
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I don't know if ecu needs adjustment if we do mods to it so it knows how to take advantage of it. Shaun aka Moroccan_Mole dyno his car today and gain 7hp by just drop in the k&n filter right after the 1st run with stock filter. ECU didn't even have time to adjust to the k&n filter yet....but it did gain 7hp!
Originally posted by hoglecl
Just to explain, this is based on what ECU's in general do. I have not gotten the shop manuel yet to work out details for the 350Z but ECU's all do the same job. If any one has the details please jump in.
The various discussions about the ECU shows that there is not a good understanding about them. The ECU takes inputs from the MAF (or other air flow sensor) air temp. air pressure, engine temp, O2 sensor, throtle position, engine RPM and some cases MPH and timing, and adjusts the fuel input to maintain a proper fuel air ratio for the given conditions. When the car is cold, or at WOT (wide open throtle), the ECU runs in open loop mode and makes adjustments based on a set map (probably based on a reference engine). When the car is warmed up the ECU changes to closed loop mode and makes adjustments on the fly to keep emmisons and the fuel air ratio with in limits. When some thing exceeds the limits of one of the sensors (or the preprogramed limits) the ECU will force the operation into the safe mode that was mentioned. The safe mode is sometimees refered to as the limp home mode and was intended for sensor or engine failure conditions and should allow one to limp home. The safe mode can also be triggered by some engine mods, but usually they have to be extreem.
There is a learning function in the ECU however, I have not seen much documentation about the function for any ECU. I suspect that it is a minor adjustment to the canned map based on what the ECU has to adjust over time. Maybe someone in the forum has the details.
The gains in HP by changing the ECU program are usually a result of improving the timing map and / or loosing up the constraints on the emision controls (the manufactors usually are somewhat on the conseravative side). (If the air fuel ratio goes slightly rich more HP can be produced at the expense of fuel usage and higher emissions. The higher emisions maybe take care of by the cat if it is not to rich).
What this means is that most mods will see and immediate improvement (if it is there) and may see more as the ECU lmakes minor adjustments to the canned map based on what it learns.
Since the ECU is making adjustments based on air temp and the like, the ECU is changing the fuel ratio and hence effecting performance (HP) of the engine based on operating conditions. The effect on dyno results is that even though they are corrected since the engine is also making corrections, comparsions between runs are going to vary (maybe not by much) when the enginge temp, air temp and air pressure are different. This can help explain why when people do their best to get good dyno runs, that comparsions between different cars in different locations can vary.
Just to explain, this is based on what ECU's in general do. I have not gotten the shop manuel yet to work out details for the 350Z but ECU's all do the same job. If any one has the details please jump in.
The various discussions about the ECU shows that there is not a good understanding about them. The ECU takes inputs from the MAF (or other air flow sensor) air temp. air pressure, engine temp, O2 sensor, throtle position, engine RPM and some cases MPH and timing, and adjusts the fuel input to maintain a proper fuel air ratio for the given conditions. When the car is cold, or at WOT (wide open throtle), the ECU runs in open loop mode and makes adjustments based on a set map (probably based on a reference engine). When the car is warmed up the ECU changes to closed loop mode and makes adjustments on the fly to keep emmisons and the fuel air ratio with in limits. When some thing exceeds the limits of one of the sensors (or the preprogramed limits) the ECU will force the operation into the safe mode that was mentioned. The safe mode is sometimees refered to as the limp home mode and was intended for sensor or engine failure conditions and should allow one to limp home. The safe mode can also be triggered by some engine mods, but usually they have to be extreem.
There is a learning function in the ECU however, I have not seen much documentation about the function for any ECU. I suspect that it is a minor adjustment to the canned map based on what the ECU has to adjust over time. Maybe someone in the forum has the details.
The gains in HP by changing the ECU program are usually a result of improving the timing map and / or loosing up the constraints on the emision controls (the manufactors usually are somewhat on the conseravative side). (If the air fuel ratio goes slightly rich more HP can be produced at the expense of fuel usage and higher emissions. The higher emisions maybe take care of by the cat if it is not to rich).
What this means is that most mods will see and immediate improvement (if it is there) and may see more as the ECU lmakes minor adjustments to the canned map based on what it learns.
Since the ECU is making adjustments based on air temp and the like, the ECU is changing the fuel ratio and hence effecting performance (HP) of the engine based on operating conditions. The effect on dyno results is that even though they are corrected since the engine is also making corrections, comparsions between runs are going to vary (maybe not by much) when the enginge temp, air temp and air pressure are different. This can help explain why when people do their best to get good dyno runs, that comparsions between different cars in different locations can vary.
01-11-2003, 06:18 PM
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Originally posted by Apexi350z
I don't know if ecu needs adjustment if we do mods to it so it knows how to take advantage of it. Shaun aka Moroccan_Mole dyno his car today and gain 7hp by just drop in the k&n filter right after the 1st run with stock filter. ECU didn't even have time to adjust to the k&n filter yet....but it did gain 7hp!
I don't know if ecu needs adjustment if we do mods to it so it knows how to take advantage of it. Shaun aka Moroccan_Mole dyno his car today and gain 7hp by just drop in the k&n filter right after the 1st run with stock filter. ECU didn't even have time to adjust to the k&n filter yet....but it did gain 7hp!
01-11-2003, 06:39 PM
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actually the air/fuel ratio was exactly the same 
the bottom graph is air/fuel mixture
what does the skips in the dyno mean?
also i forgot to tell the guy to turn off the vdc, but i dunno if that would have made any difference at all.
the bottom graph is air/fuel mixture
what does the skips in the dyno mean?
also i forgot to tell the guy to turn off the vdc, but i dunno if that would have made any difference at all.
01-11-2003, 08:07 PM
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Aren't you guys worried about getting the Filter soaked when you wash your car? that's one of the reasons why i went with a HAI over a CAI because everytime i'd wash my car my filter would get soaked on my maxima.
01-11-2003, 09:01 PM
#29
yeah, it can get wet, itll get wet when it rains too. slight amounts of moisture in the intake will burn up in the cylinder(performance would be hindered by this, but not masivly, or permanently) only problem is when enough water is sucked in that it doesnt burn and the cylinder cant compress the water. called hydrolock. with the car in gear the engine would seize. very bad, but the only way the intakes gonna suck up water is if the whole intake is SUBMERGED in water and it acts like a straw.
basicly if your not capable of avoiding 6-10inch deep puddles, then you shouldnt have a CAI.
basicly if your not capable of avoiding 6-10inch deep puddles, then you shouldnt have a CAI.
01-11-2003, 10:06 PM
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OT:350Z just like my old RSX-S
The 2002 RSX-S has the same problems as the 350Z---the ECU is just too damn picky---if you are dynoing,..unplug your negitive Cable for like 20mins,..then plug it back in-you will see a HP gain,...it has to re-learn all the settings which is why some are seeing gians on the dyno,...untill it learns all the conditions it will feel better,..but after,..you probably won't see much till the ECU is "FLASHED"!
Sorry-OFF TOPIC-but the RSX-S was detuned from the factory when the got of the boat,.I'm sure same w/ the 350,..thats why we are heaing this rumor of the 350 supposed;y having 310hp instead of 287hp,..they had to have detuned it---but saying that,...HONDATA released a FLASH program for the ECU and the gains on that little Honda were AMAZING!
Even turbo kits on the RSX-S we're doing really bad for hp #'s,.but the FLASH Helped ALL!
Some have actually gone to a Acura service and got them to Flash the ECu as well,...but now that HONDATA is out,..they are seeing gains all over the board-its a 2.0 so it gains a lot more then a 1.8(ie-Integra DC-2,ITR's)---
So once Ol' Dirty JIM WOLF releases this ECU,...trust me,.It will be all over! MODS will gain a **** load!I can't wait,..After reading this confirmed that all the new ECU OBD3 & OBD4(???) are just too restrictive,...so I will wait to do anything untill the ECU upgrade comes out!
Hopefully we'll see 310crank Hp,..I will be very happy w/ that!!
SO I'll stick to the exterior mods for now till then,.. Just my $0.02
Sorry-OFF TOPIC-but the RSX-S was detuned from the factory when the got of the boat,.I'm sure same w/ the 350,..thats why we are heaing this rumor of the 350 supposed;y having 310hp instead of 287hp,..they had to have detuned it---but saying that,...HONDATA released a FLASH program for the ECU and the gains on that little Honda were AMAZING!
Even turbo kits on the RSX-S we're doing really bad for hp #'s,.but the FLASH Helped ALL!
Some have actually gone to a Acura service and got them to Flash the ECu as well,...but now that HONDATA is out,..they are seeing gains all over the board-its a 2.0 so it gains a lot more then a 1.8(ie-Integra DC-2,ITR's)---
So once Ol' Dirty JIM WOLF releases this ECU,...trust me,.It will be all over! MODS will gain a **** load!I can't wait,..After reading this confirmed that all the new ECU OBD3 & OBD4(???) are just too restrictive,...so I will wait to do anything untill the ECU upgrade comes out!
Hopefully we'll see 310crank Hp,..I will be very happy w/ that!!
SO I'll stick to the exterior mods for now till then,.. Just my $0.02
01-11-2003, 10:24 PM
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Re: OT:350Z just like my old RSX-S
Originally posted by Mr Fairlady
The 2002 RSX-S has the same problems as the 350Z---the ECU is just too damn picky---if you are dynoing,..unplug your negitive Cable for like 20mins,..then plug it back in-you will see a HP gain,...it has to re-learn all the settings which is why some are seeing gians on the dyno,...untill it learns all the conditions it will feel better,..but after,..you probably won't see much till the ECU is "FLASHED"!
Sorry-OFF TOPIC-but the RSX-S was detuned from the factory when the got of the boat,.I'm sure same w/ the 350,..thats why we are heaing this rumor of the 350 supposed;y having 310hp instead of 287hp,..they had to have detuned it---but saying that,...HONDATA released a FLASH program for the ECU and the gains on that little Honda were AMAZING!
Even turbo kits on the RSX-S we're doing really bad for hp #'s,.but the FLASH Helped ALL!
Some have actually gone to a Acura service and got them to Flash the ECu as well,...but now that HONDATA is out,..they are seeing gains all over the board-its a 2.0 so it gains a lot more then a 1.8(ie-Integra DC-2,ITR's)---
So once Ol' Dirty JIM WOLF releases this ECU,...trust me,.It will be all over! MODS will gain a **** load!I can't wait,..After reading this confirmed that all the new ECU OBD3 & OBD4(???) are just too restrictive,...so I will wait to do anything untill the ECU upgrade comes out!
Hopefully we'll see 310crank Hp,..I will be very happy w/ that!!
SO I'll stick to the exterior mods for now till then,.. Just my $0.02
The 2002 RSX-S has the same problems as the 350Z---the ECU is just too damn picky---if you are dynoing,..unplug your negitive Cable for like 20mins,..then plug it back in-you will see a HP gain,...it has to re-learn all the settings which is why some are seeing gians on the dyno,...untill it learns all the conditions it will feel better,..but after,..you probably won't see much till the ECU is "FLASHED"!
Sorry-OFF TOPIC-but the RSX-S was detuned from the factory when the got of the boat,.I'm sure same w/ the 350,..thats why we are heaing this rumor of the 350 supposed;y having 310hp instead of 287hp,..they had to have detuned it---but saying that,...HONDATA released a FLASH program for the ECU and the gains on that little Honda were AMAZING!
Even turbo kits on the RSX-S we're doing really bad for hp #'s,.but the FLASH Helped ALL!
Some have actually gone to a Acura service and got them to Flash the ECu as well,...but now that HONDATA is out,..they are seeing gains all over the board-its a 2.0 so it gains a lot more then a 1.8(ie-Integra DC-2,ITR's)---
So once Ol' Dirty JIM WOLF releases this ECU,...trust me,.It will be all over! MODS will gain a **** load!I can't wait,..After reading this confirmed that all the new ECU OBD3 & OBD4(???) are just too restrictive,...so I will wait to do anything untill the ECU upgrade comes out!
Hopefully we'll see 310crank Hp,..I will be very happy w/ that!!
SO I'll stick to the exterior mods for now till then,.. Just my $0.02
01-13-2003, 08:05 AM
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Originally posted by wadd3456
Here is a pic of mine. Give your car a few days, the intake will work even better.
camera is scratched, i know!
Here is a pic of mine. Give your car a few days, the intake will work even better.
camera is scratched, i know!
Thanks,
01-14-2003, 04:37 PM
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The AEM CAI for the 3G Eclipse has a bypass valve. I wonder if the AEM for the Z has one since the Injen doesn't. If you don't know what a bypass valve is...it's just a small foam filter that installs in between the main filter and the throttle body, so it's higher up in the engine compartment. The intake uses this bypass valve to take in air when the main filter is submerged in water. Driving in the rain shouldn't be a problem with CAI since the amount of water that would actually make it to the thottle body would be small (unless you had say 600hp and your intake then turns into an industrial strength vacuum). Unless there is 0% humidity in the air your engine is always getting some moisture, so at 90% humidity...well you get the point.
01-14-2003, 04:48 PM
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Originally posted by joeshow750
The AEM CAI for the 3G Eclipse has a bypass valve. I wonder if the AEM for the Z has one since the Injen doesn't.
The AEM CAI for the 3G Eclipse has a bypass valve. I wonder if the AEM for the Z has one since the Injen doesn't.
01-14-2003, 05:00 PM
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Bypass vales are universal, only difference is the diameter. Although AEM says to only use their bypass valves with their intakes, it is not true, it'll work on all intakes, given that the correct diameter is used.
01-14-2003, 05:02 PM
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Here is an interesting tidbit......
Today I reached under the filter area and found a puddle of red oil. I'm assuming that is the K&N filter oil. Isnt this a problem when injested through the Mass Air Flow?!
caugh caugh
Today I reached under the filter area and found a puddle of red oil. I'm assuming that is the K&N filter oil. Isnt this a problem when injested through the Mass Air Flow?!
caugh caugh