Cold Air Intake gains
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From: Los Altos, CA
What I don't get is how you get offended when you create a webpage with public access and somebody utilizes that now public information. If you publicize your "performance" modifications you have to be ready to take on naysayers.
Personally, I think all of the CAI and exhaust mods are just big moneymakers for all aftermarket companies. 3-4 hp at the wheels means squat.
I know for a fact that Dinan Engineering had a white paper on their site stating that CAI's simply don't provide improvements to BMW's. Then, when they found out people would buy them anyway and pay hundreds of dollars for ones that looked really good, they stocked them and sold them by the truckload.
Moreover, Jim Conforti, a BMW chip tuner, has done a bunch of flow tests on K&N's and although they have more flow initially, once there is a bit of dirt in them they are worse than stock paper filters, which have far more square inches of filter.
You guys have all bought a sports car. It is speed in and out of corners that matters and that is all driver. There was an M5 day at Sears a couple of years back and many of the owners had full suspension mods, quicker final drives, software and CAI upgrades. The quickest driver of the bunch and a box stock M5.
Personally, I think all of the CAI and exhaust mods are just big moneymakers for all aftermarket companies. 3-4 hp at the wheels means squat.
I know for a fact that Dinan Engineering had a white paper on their site stating that CAI's simply don't provide improvements to BMW's. Then, when they found out people would buy them anyway and pay hundreds of dollars for ones that looked really good, they stocked them and sold them by the truckload.
Moreover, Jim Conforti, a BMW chip tuner, has done a bunch of flow tests on K&N's and although they have more flow initially, once there is a bit of dirt in them they are worse than stock paper filters, which have far more square inches of filter.
You guys have all bought a sports car. It is speed in and out of corners that matters and that is all driver. There was an M5 day at Sears a couple of years back and many of the owners had full suspension mods, quicker final drives, software and CAI upgrades. The quickest driver of the bunch and a box stock M5.
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From: Frisco, TX
Originally posted by 2003z
Phillips only response to me had been to ask why I am following him around asking the same question over and over. He finally chocked it up to bad gas, but I don't buy it.
Phillips only response to me had been to ask why I am following him around asking the same question over and over. He finally chocked it up to bad gas, but I don't buy it.
Using my dynoruns, set to smoothing 1, they look VERY jagged, but set to smoothing 5, they look very smooth (although the squiggles still exist in a small amount). You should find out what smoothing level was used when you got your dynochart.
Michael.
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From: NOR - CAL
What I don't get is how you get offended when you create a webpage with public access and somebody utilizes that now public information. If you publicize your "performance" modifications you have to be ready to take on naysayers.
Anyone who thinks that modding your intake and exhaust over stock will not provide any gains would get slammed in a *real* technical debate! And that's the truth. Go try talking this trash on say ls1tech.com and see how silly you will be made to look.
And who says we bought are cars just for "corners?" YOU!
You have now decided what we all will do with our cars?
Get a Grip on yourself. My car is for the 1/4.
What I don't get is how you get offended when you create a webpage with public access and somebody utilizes that now public information.
To the original poster thanks again for using me as an example to further yours and others knowledge without my consent. Do not email me anymore. I am through defended myself from people who haven't done the mods I have done yet argue about their gains. I am calling Marco's to get his take on the exact wording of how this all started from beggining to end. I asked to be left out of it but apparently some people can't seem to do that so I degress...
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From: Los Angeles, CA
Wow, didn't know that Michael-Dallas... pretty cool 
Wonder if anyone has dynoed their car with no smoothing before and after installing a grounding kit, to see if it makes a difference on the char? I remember someone testing the variation in RPMs at idle, and there was a significant difference with the grounding kit, but I'd like to see if that actually shows up on the chart during acceleration...
~Berj
Wonder if anyone has dynoed their car with no smoothing before and after installing a grounding kit, to see if it makes a difference on the char? I remember someone testing the variation in RPMs at idle, and there was a significant difference with the grounding kit, but I'd like to see if that actually shows up on the chart during acceleration...
~Berj
Thread Starter
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From: Somewhere breathing thin air
I am sorry
I am sorry to see this originally technical discussion degenerate so quickly.
Max, I have not attacked you personally, why do you insist on attacking me repeatedly? I thought you have said that this issue is settled. If it is, why then are you singling me out yet again?
I apologize to everybody if I had wasted their time. Max had specifically told me not to email him again even though when I initially did, I did it out of good faith. Subsequent emails are answers I gave to Max's questions. I do not feel that this latest round of attack on me is warranted. I have to ask you Max, what are you angry at? Are you angry at me for posting your dyno charts, or are you angry at parts you bought that did not live up to its expectations.
Again, if there is a technical dispute here, let's hear it. Nobody needs to be insulted or attacked. We can all act as adults.
signing off,
budi
budi@fisherspeed.com
Max, I have not attacked you personally, why do you insist on attacking me repeatedly? I thought you have said that this issue is settled. If it is, why then are you singling me out yet again?
I apologize to everybody if I had wasted their time. Max had specifically told me not to email him again even though when I initially did, I did it out of good faith. Subsequent emails are answers I gave to Max's questions. I do not feel that this latest round of attack on me is warranted. I have to ask you Max, what are you angry at? Are you angry at me for posting your dyno charts, or are you angry at parts you bought that did not live up to its expectations.
Again, if there is a technical dispute here, let's hear it. Nobody needs to be insulted or attacked. We can all act as adults.
signing off,
budi
budi@fisherspeed.com
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From: Blue Springs, Mo
Not that I have any real say, but I would say the adult thing to do would be to just stop the entire discussion. I agree, it started out as a technical thread, but it is no longer as it began. Let's keep My350Z the forum I have come to love 
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From: Frisco, TX
Originally posted by Andorion
Wow, didn't know that Michael-Dallas... pretty cool
Wonder if anyone has dynoed their car with no smoothing before and after installing a grounding kit, to see if it makes a difference on the char? I remember someone testing the variation in RPMs at idle, and there was a significant difference with the grounding kit, but I'd like to see if that actually shows up on the chart during acceleration...
Wow, didn't know that Michael-Dallas... pretty cool
Wonder if anyone has dynoed their car with no smoothing before and after installing a grounding kit, to see if it makes a difference on the char? I remember someone testing the variation in RPMs at idle, and there was a significant difference with the grounding kit, but I'd like to see if that actually shows up on the chart during acceleration...
I have the grounding kit and when set to smoothing 1, my curve is VERY jagged.
Enjoy!
Michael.
Originally posted by Michael-Dallas
Not to continue that thread, but if your 350 was dynoed on a dynojet, then the dynojet software has a smoothing function. Basically what smoothing does is... smoothens out the squiggles. There are 5 smoothing levels, 1 being no smoothing performed and 5 being the most smoothing performed.
Using my dynoruns, set to smoothing 1, they look VERY jagged, but set to smoothing 5, they look very smooth (although the squiggles still exist in a small amount). You should find out what smoothing level was used when you got your dynochart.
Michael.
Not to continue that thread, but if your 350 was dynoed on a dynojet, then the dynojet software has a smoothing function. Basically what smoothing does is... smoothens out the squiggles. There are 5 smoothing levels, 1 being no smoothing performed and 5 being the most smoothing performed.
Using my dynoruns, set to smoothing 1, they look VERY jagged, but set to smoothing 5, they look very smooth (although the squiggles still exist in a small amount). You should find out what smoothing level was used when you got your dynochart.
Michael.
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From: NOR - CAL
Mine were all done with 5.
I was told that if there are any flaws in your system 5 will show them. Mine did not show any. FWIW.
That's a loaded question and you know it. I'm starting to smell a troll. I already mentioned in this thread we are currently in that I was happy with my mods and further clarified it by asking others to perform further research on different forums to back up my happiness in my mods. So don't play dumb.
Because someone defends themselve doesn't mean they are angry. This is a BBS not a boxing ring.
You posted my charts without asking me , it was rude, get over it.
You could have used Injen's Dyno Graphs that claim 7 RWHP but you chose to make it personal for some reason, now I am defending myself, I have that right because you opened the door. Had you used Injen's graph I wouldn't even be in this thread, get it yet?
No one is "attacking" you. For all I know you are on another continent. Attacking you? Good Grief...
Now if you will excuse me UPS is at my door with my new NFORCE2 Motherboard
I was told that if there are any flaws in your system 5 will show them. Mine did not show any. FWIW.
I have to ask you Max, what are you angry at? Are you angry at me for posting your dyno charts, or are you angry at parts you bought that did not live up to its expectations.
Because someone defends themselve doesn't mean they are angry. This is a BBS not a boxing ring.
You posted my charts without asking me , it was rude, get over it.
You could have used Injen's Dyno Graphs that claim 7 RWHP but you chose to make it personal for some reason, now I am defending myself, I have that right because you opened the door. Had you used Injen's graph I wouldn't even be in this thread, get it yet?
No one is "attacking" you. For all I know you are on another continent. Attacking you? Good Grief...
Now if you will excuse me UPS is at my door with my new NFORCE2 Motherboard
Last edited by 12SecZ; Feb 25, 2003 at 01:33 PM.
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From: Pomona
Boy seems like everybody is angry here. Hope everybody works it out. That aside, I would like questions directed to me about the Injen intake. I will have a discussion with our R&D department and we will iron out all of your issues. We will tell you how we got our results and why. FYI, we don't just get a piece of aluminum and slap it on. We have an in-house dyno-jet and our goal is to make you power. We'd be idiots to show bunk graphs knowing you the customer could get your own dyno test done. We made an average of 5-8 whp gains throughout the powerband. We considered many variables including diameter, bends, filter size, etc. We are willing to invite somebody or a couple of people in the local area to see how we dyno test the intake and show the results. We prefer people that are knowledgable with a dyno machine so we won't be accused of altering the results. Remember one thing, we are in Pomona, CA. Results may vary in other areas, climates, modifications, etc. Regardless, what makes sense is that you are happy with your purchase. The bottom line, we want you to be happy if you choose our product. Consider a few key points about the Injen intake for the 350Z: 1. Can be made a short ram during wet conditions. 2.Comes with a exhaust manifold cover to block out some of the engine heat when it is a short ram 3.limited lifetime warranty 4. dyno proven 5. Valid complaints about red hose were addressed and black will be offered before April. 6. Silicone secondary tube to prevent friction with the body 7. Built in velocity stack in the filter 8. Flared pipe on the end with 3 1/2 filter for more flow 9. cnc brackets 10. billet aluminum adaptorWell enough said for now. Contact me if you have any questions at ryant@injen.com. Thank you.
Regards,
Ryan Takashima
VP Injen Technolgy
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From: Lawrenceville Ga
Guys, I think that the increase at that point may be due to harmonics. Kinda hard to explain, but if you look at a dyno of every, LONG intake (such as Injen and AEM), you will see a hump of torque increase way before redline. For example, on a lot of the Honda B series motors, the hump occurs around 3500-4000 rpms. I've been told that the shorter the intake tube itself is, the higher in the rev range this bump in torque will be.
Opinions?
Opinions?
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From: Frisco, TX
Let me point out something and you guys can take this info for what it's worth. At last weekend's dyno day, it was not uncommon to see 350's gain rwhp/rwtq after each run.
If you go to: http://300zx.hopto.org , download the Dynojet Viewer and observe Mike Quan's 1st and 3rd runs, then you will notice a 6rwhp and 7rwtq difference. If you observe Josh Cole's 2nd and 4th runs (the 1st run was done a few months earlier w/ much less miles), then you will notice a 3rwhp and 8rwtq difference. If you observe Mike Taylor's 1st and 3rd runs, then you will notice a 7rwhp and 11rwtq difference; furthermore, his is an auto. Those are just a few examples and all of these cars are bone stock!
Michael.
BTW, I don't think these individuals won't mind me using their charts. Mike Quan (ChinaClipper) is this year's ZCOT president, Josh Cole (ColecatZ) and I go waaay back to the 300ZX days, and 'Mad' Mike Taylor is the executive director of ZCCA (not only that, we have him to thank for making the 350z a reality).
If you go to: http://300zx.hopto.org , download the Dynojet Viewer and observe Mike Quan's 1st and 3rd runs, then you will notice a 6rwhp and 7rwtq difference. If you observe Josh Cole's 2nd and 4th runs (the 1st run was done a few months earlier w/ much less miles), then you will notice a 3rwhp and 8rwtq difference. If you observe Mike Taylor's 1st and 3rd runs, then you will notice a 7rwhp and 11rwtq difference; furthermore, his is an auto. Those are just a few examples and all of these cars are bone stock!
Michael.
BTW, I don't think these individuals won't mind me using their charts. Mike Quan (ChinaClipper) is this year's ZCOT president, Josh Cole (ColecatZ) and I go waaay back to the 300ZX days, and 'Mad' Mike Taylor is the executive director of ZCCA (not only that, we have him to thank for making the 350z a reality).
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From: Hawaii
Re: I am sorry
Originally posted by 3.9LTwinTurbo
[BI apologize to everybody if I had wasted their time.
budi@fisherspeed.com [/B]
[BI apologize to everybody if I had wasted their time.
budi@fisherspeed.com [/B]
You do not have to apologize to anyone for your contribution to this board. After all, we are all enthusiasts, and would benefit greatly from each individual with his/her experience and knowledge.
It saddens me that a member of this board was so upset at a discussion between, what is essentially, an aftermarket CAI and the stock intake.
Anyway, I hope that this experience did not deter you from contributing in the future.
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From: Santa Cruz, CA
To MaxHax and 3.9,
I think you both have made excellent contributions to this site.
MaxHax, I love the way you have taken the Z, run with it, and been an early adopter of many of the modifications out there. You have indeed been very generous with your info, insight, and reasons for making your decisions. I truly appreciate your willingness to share your dyno's with the rest of us, especially because you have been detailed and careful about maintaining consistency. I hope this one experience, as frustrating as it has been, does not permanently temper your interest in sharing the knowledge you learn, since I know many of us look towards the courageous "ginuea pigs" before we buy our mods (at least I know I do). I am eagerly anticipating some additional data from your Zex kit (like Dyno's or 1/4 times), so I hope you'll feel more comfortable by the time that data is collected. FWIW, I was never under the impression that 3.9 was attacking you or your credibility, but I definitely can understand how it could be read that way and why you are upset.
3.9, I also appreciate your contribution, since I was somewhat puzzled by the results. You definitely F'd up, but I appreciate the fact that you apologized.
I sincerly hope that you both can come to some sort of understanding, since I believe you both have very valid information to share, and that is the reason I visit this site.
-D'oh!
I think you both have made excellent contributions to this site.
MaxHax, I love the way you have taken the Z, run with it, and been an early adopter of many of the modifications out there. You have indeed been very generous with your info, insight, and reasons for making your decisions. I truly appreciate your willingness to share your dyno's with the rest of us, especially because you have been detailed and careful about maintaining consistency. I hope this one experience, as frustrating as it has been, does not permanently temper your interest in sharing the knowledge you learn, since I know many of us look towards the courageous "ginuea pigs" before we buy our mods (at least I know I do). I am eagerly anticipating some additional data from your Zex kit (like Dyno's or 1/4 times), so I hope you'll feel more comfortable by the time that data is collected. FWIW, I was never under the impression that 3.9 was attacking you or your credibility, but I definitely can understand how it could be read that way and why you are upset.
3.9, I also appreciate your contribution, since I was somewhat puzzled by the results. You definitely F'd up, but I appreciate the fact that you apologized.
I sincerly hope that you both can come to some sort of understanding, since I believe you both have very valid information to share, and that is the reason I visit this site.
-D'oh!
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From: NOR - CAL
Thank you Doh , Michael and everyone else. Great info.
I'm over it. Been a rough week. I read it when tired and over reacted. I have an excuse for my grumpiness but it doesn't belong on this board, it's work related not car or board. Stuff happens but it's not that seriuos as to ruin a good info thread.
I too apoligize so 3.9 and myself can start again even.
I want to make a point here though so everyone please bare with me for a moment.
Firstly, thank you to the Injen Rep for coming here to explain a few things. That really means allot. It means this board gets broad coverage and is well represented and respected. That is a good thing for the board and us as members. I am not angry and I am *happy* with my intake. It growls and snarls like a bad dog as I WOT past pretty much everyone on I5 LOL. I am quite sure it is sucking more cold air than it was before and it looks awesome. My car sounds better, looks better, and gets better mpg gas ($2.07 for Premium 92 here!) So that alone is worth 200 bucks (I got the blue/black.)
I shouldn't have been as aggressive in my response as I was and I will leave it there. DONE!
Now,
IIRC, some had posted a loss with this mod? I did a before and after and did not post a loss. So it's still a good mod even without a gain for me right? Although I think it would show gains at the track and does on the Dyno (gains opposed to losses.)
What I would **really** like is someone to come out to the track with me on April 2nd that has a stock intake and lets do some N/A runs. Same track, same temp, same prep etc. It would have to be an auto with similair weight to mine. The heat shield is a PITA to take on/off or I would run it stock intake then CAI intake and see the difference in run times. IF someone local (there are like 7 in Northen California that post every now and then) will help me swap my intakes (and bring tools) between runs (we have the track from 5pm till 1100pm so engine heat won't be a factor) I will volunteer to do 2 runs with stock intake and 2 runs with Injen intake and post both slips, wouldn't that be a great test??? Then 3 N20 runs with the ZEX!
I have been practicing launching and getting ready. By April 2nd (Sport Compact Specialty Night) my car will have about 6k miles on it too. I will post all the time slips both N/A and N20 for everyone too so you may consider what direction you may want to go with your mods. I plan on doing about 6 runs then breaking out of the bracket to get my best time, I am not doing this track night for points or anything so I don't plan on winning anything.
Wouldn't it be nice to dial in at 13.1 and break out at 12.9 on the bottle? Sounds like a dream. Those pulley's and headers will get me there but they are not out yet!
Anyway,
Thanks again.
I'm over it. Been a rough week. I read it when tired and over reacted. I have an excuse for my grumpiness but it doesn't belong on this board, it's work related not car or board. Stuff happens but it's not that seriuos as to ruin a good info thread.
I too apoligize so 3.9 and myself can start again even.
I want to make a point here though so everyone please bare with me for a moment.
Firstly, thank you to the Injen Rep for coming here to explain a few things. That really means allot. It means this board gets broad coverage and is well represented and respected. That is a good thing for the board and us as members. I am not angry and I am *happy* with my intake. It growls and snarls like a bad dog as I WOT past pretty much everyone on I5 LOL. I am quite sure it is sucking more cold air than it was before and it looks awesome. My car sounds better, looks better, and gets better mpg gas ($2.07 for Premium 92 here!) So that alone is worth 200 bucks (I got the blue/black.)
I shouldn't have been as aggressive in my response as I was and I will leave it there. DONE!
Now,
IIRC, some had posted a loss with this mod? I did a before and after and did not post a loss. So it's still a good mod even without a gain for me right? Although I think it would show gains at the track and does on the Dyno (gains opposed to losses.)
What I would **really** like is someone to come out to the track with me on April 2nd that has a stock intake and lets do some N/A runs. Same track, same temp, same prep etc. It would have to be an auto with similair weight to mine. The heat shield is a PITA to take on/off or I would run it stock intake then CAI intake and see the difference in run times. IF someone local (there are like 7 in Northen California that post every now and then) will help me swap my intakes (and bring tools) between runs (we have the track from 5pm till 1100pm so engine heat won't be a factor) I will volunteer to do 2 runs with stock intake and 2 runs with Injen intake and post both slips, wouldn't that be a great test??? Then 3 N20 runs with the ZEX!
I have been practicing launching and getting ready. By April 2nd (Sport Compact Specialty Night) my car will have about 6k miles on it too. I will post all the time slips both N/A and N20 for everyone too so you may consider what direction you may want to go with your mods. I plan on doing about 6 runs then breaking out of the bracket to get my best time, I am not doing this track night for points or anything so I don't plan on winning anything.
Wouldn't it be nice to dial in at 13.1 and break out at 12.9 on the bottle? Sounds like a dream. Those pulley's and headers will get me there but they are not out yet!
Anyway,
Thanks again.
Max: For the record, I don't have a CAI. I was interested in getting one but after seeing the dynos posted, I didn't think the small gains were worth it. It was this interest that drew me to this thread in the first place.
I'm glad you are over your anger I too have had days/weeks like you describe at work. While I can sympathize with your original argument, I would hope that your disagreement with Budi doesn't impede genuine open discusssion on things such as this. If someone comes on here saying they have done something to improve their performance, GREAT! But, I also like to see the "naysayers" as someone called them, give valid reasons as to why said claim may not be valid. It is these discussions (that's why they call these things forums) that help the common Z owner (at least me anyway) make decisions concerning their cars.
I'm glad you are over your anger
I too have had days/weeks like you describe at work. While I can sympathize with your original argument, I would hope that your disagreement with Budi doesn't impede genuine open discusssion on things such as this. If someone comes on here saying they have done something to improve their performance, GREAT! But, I also like to see the "naysayers" as someone called them, give valid reasons as to why said claim may not be valid. It is these discussions (that's why they call these things forums) that help the common Z owner (at least me anyway) make decisions concerning their cars.
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From: Pomona
I hear what you guys are saying and respect it. However my earlier offer still stands:
We are willing to invite somebody or a couple of people in the local area to see how we dyno test the intake and show the results. We prefer people that are knowledgable with a dyno machine so we won't be accused of altering the results.
ryant@injen.com
We are willing to invite somebody or a couple of people in the local area to see how we dyno test the intake and show the results. We prefer people that are knowledgable with a dyno machine so we won't be accused of altering the results.
ryant@injen.com
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From: NOR - CAL
Dr. Bonz,
Point taken thanks for understanding. I expressed this exact sentiment to 3.9 in private mail just before I got a little heated and encouraged him to continue his postings, I have no plans to follow his every post in disagreement, I just will defend myself, just not so aggressively, I apreciate you and the other founders of this great board and the hard work and efforts you have put forth to allow us to use it. Especially you for your detailing expertize but others too.
3.9 Feel free to express your opinions and experience, I again apoligize, like I said it's done, Dyno's were removed from my website so it doesn't happena again. They have been retained though and will continue with A. N20 Dyno at 5k miles, B. UR U SS Pulle Dyno, Header Dyno, and finally ECU Dyno. And before anyone gets real excited reading this, no I don't have them yet I'm waiting just like you (except the ZEX N20 it runs great and further pics will follow nextTuesday when my Plexiglass and Neon Blue Street Glow is finished for my trunk.
rtakashima,
How far south is Pomona from Sacramento?
If I made the trip would you perform a stock Vs. Injen Dyno on my car so we can compare the results I already have that showed gains? I would help and have been to *several* Dyno days. I am an active member of TACA (Trans Am Club Of America) Golden State Chapter, and represent my cars and the people who work on them in a dignified and respectable fashion.
For what it is worth, I welcome you here (that and $1.10 will get you a cup of coffee though.) It may be slightly wormer there but I have the current conditions, smoothing factor and gear ratio data etc needed to make a fair comparison of my current Dyno's.
I also have a grounding Kit and custom exhaust 2.5 all the way back though (from the cats with a staright through) and dufferent plugs. I offer you my car and time.
Point taken thanks for understanding. I expressed this exact sentiment to 3.9 in private mail just before I got a little heated and encouraged him to continue his postings, I have no plans to follow his every post in disagreement, I just will defend myself, just not so aggressively, I apreciate you and the other founders of this great board and the hard work and efforts you have put forth to allow us to use it. Especially you for your detailing expertize but others too.
3.9 Feel free to express your opinions and experience, I again apoligize, like I said it's done, Dyno's were removed from my website so it doesn't happena again. They have been retained though and will continue with A. N20 Dyno at 5k miles, B. UR U SS Pulle Dyno, Header Dyno, and finally ECU Dyno. And before anyone gets real excited reading this, no I don't have them yet
I'm waiting just like you (except the ZEX N20 it runs great and further pics will follow nextTuesday when my Plexiglass and Neon Blue Street Glow is finished for my trunk.rtakashima,
How far south is Pomona from Sacramento?
If I made the trip would you perform a stock Vs. Injen Dyno on my car so we can compare the results I already have that showed gains? I would help and have been to *several* Dyno days. I am an active member of TACA (Trans Am Club Of America) Golden State Chapter, and represent my cars and the people who work on them in a dignified and respectable fashion.
For what it is worth, I welcome you here (that and $1.10 will get you a cup of coffee though.) It may be slightly wormer there but I have the current conditions, smoothing factor and gear ratio data etc needed to make a fair comparison of my current Dyno's.
I also have a grounding Kit and custom exhaust 2.5 all the way back though (from the cats with a staright through) and dufferent plugs. I offer you my car and time.
